How far is too far?

[boxer810]

Okay, I'm probably signing my own death warrant here with what I'm about to say, but oh well.....


Growing up in a very religious family, my Father was a minister, and my step-mother was a Sunday School teacher AND a minister, I have read the Bible many times over, many different texts, etc. People in our "culture" are always saying how the Bible cannot be taken literally, that certain things in the Bible just CAN'T be done nowadays.....

NEWS FLASH PEOPLE!!

The things that we read about in the Bible happened just as they are put in there! People most certainly WERE put to death for being homosexuals, people WERE stoned for have opposing views from those in charge, people were killed quite often if for no reason other than someone wanted it done....

My point is, certain people take things from the Bible and twist them for their own purposes. Peter took EXACT PASSAGES and quoted them.....and yet some of you still question his meanings!

dt3, you say that the Bible is a "figurative work." What is your proof of that? Because you interpret it that way? I'm not trying to be argumentative but there are a few in here that contradict themselves....

The facts that are written in the Bible were not written by men full of hatred and wanting to be deceitful.....they were written by men who had been commanded by God to do so....so if a person claims to be a Christian, they should take the Bible and ALL of its contents as words to live by, NOT bits and pieces taken for their liking.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

But the Bible is a very figurative work. It could be referring to eternal damnation as death, like it does in several other places.

Exactly my point.

If God inspired the Bible as Christians believe and is perfect, it would be an insult to him if he didn't make it crystal clear, especially if he expected people to live by it!

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

I don't see how this can be conveyed any other way... "to be put to death" is an action and not a consequence.

So you and Peter interpret the Bible and the Koran in a literal sense I take it. SMH.

 

[Peter Parka]

Well if you're going to twist clear statements in the Bible around, you could interpret it to anything you want, especially if you're going to somehow twist crystal clear statements like that. It's worth reminding you that this is the book YOU profess to live by, not me, I personally think it's a pile of crap. With that in mind, maybe you should really be pointing out the obvious statements in it, not me.

 

[boxer810]

Exactly my point.





So you and Peter interpret the Bible and the Koran in a literal sense I take it. SMH.

Total contradiction!

Either you take the Bible only figuratively, or you take it completely literally.....which one??


Hold on, let me edit this....


What I mean is, you cannot take certain parts literally and certain parts figuratively.....it just doesn't work that way. It has to be one way or the other.

 

[All Else Failed]

I'm seeing a recurring problem in the thread. It is assumed that "forcing" your children to attend church is the same thing as "forcing" them to believe in your religion.

In my opinion, you cannot force anybody to believe anything. Small children do not have the life experience to make decisions for themselves very well, and will default to what they have been taught. There is a time in all of our lives though, which the Christian Bible refers to as the age of accountability, when you become able to choose for yourself. This is the day you finally grasp what's going on around you, and spiritually become responsible for your own actions.

Tim and AEF were both raised Christian, and when they became old enough to decide for themselves, they converted (for lack of a better word).

Parents need to communicate with their children on levels that match the maturity level of that child. I personally believe in sharing many points of view with kids. In doing so, you're going to have to explain why you have made the choices you have made, and as such, why you feel it is your responsibility as a parent to raise them in that direction.

If your 16 year old doesn't want to go to church anymore, I think it is the right of the parent to force the issue. It should be explained though that even if they don't believe what the preacher is saying, church is a family function, and they are expected to be an active member of the family. Any punishment for not attending should be given on the basis of disobedience to the parent, not disobedience to the church.

Going to church has many secondary positives beyond the primary of learning about the faith. Even if the child hates church it should be a positive life experience. As adults, we all have to do things we don't want to do. It takes responsibility to do these things. I was "forced" to wash dishes as a kid. I hated every second of it for 10 years. Here I am as an adult though, and I'm still washing dishes. If I had never had to clean a day in my life, chances are I would have lived in my own filth for however many years it took to find the truth my parents gave me through chores.

Other positives are going to be choice of friends. Psychology classes (and I'm sure Mari can expand on this) taugh me that the most important factor in the forming of relationships is proximity. I'm not saying church kids are angels, and non-church kids are demons, but what I am saying, is that in GENERAL, there are going to be fewer bad influences to choose from out of the friend pool. There is going to be a higher average of engaged parents and strong families.

I don't believe in sheltering a child 100% from the world. I think the preachers kid syndrome is probably linked directly to overprotection as a young adult. If you have never been exposed to sex, drugs, or rock & roll, you won't be equipped to handle it when you finally leave your parents house. Practical education is crucial.

To what happened with Grace... This is sad. It was obviously said with tongue in cheek. Her words were twisted, and people who already have a beef with her ran with it. Tim is an excellent communicator. He has a keen ability to push the buttons he's looking to push. We all get upset when we're treated with dis-respect. There are examples in this very thread of several offenders.

The idea that Christians are somehow not allowed to get angry isn't based in reality. Jesus himself went ape style on some crooked money changers back in the day. Probably the first time in history "Jesus Christ" was used as an expletive! :jk

I think the fact that everybody is surprised to see her defend herself speaks volumes in the positive. If I, or AEF, or Pete decided to land some hard blows, nobody would notice.

BUT, you can condition them to the point where they really do believe in what you teach them. Society can do that too.

 

[All Else Failed]

The Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong, but it in NO way teaches us to go out gay-bashing. It doesn't tell us to treat them like animals or anything crazy.

Homosexuality goes contrary to design. On that issue, everybody seems to agree. A problem with homosexuality that people don't like to talk about however, is that it is a dangerous lifestyle.

The actual "sin" of homosexuality (the act, not the emotion) is no different than the "sin" of disrespecting your parents. There is a passage in the Bible that teaches us that nobody is perfect. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Christianity teaches us that the reason Jesus came to earth was to redeem us from our sins. It doesn't say He came to redeem us from all of our sins except sodomy.

I have gay friends and gay family members. I recently quit smoking, but I'm pretty sure smoking wasn't the best lifestyle for me to be living in either. And I did it while I was a Christian none the less!

I think God works on us all individually, as we're able and willing to take steps.

.....no? I'm going to venture a guess and say that most western countries don't think that. Plus, homosexuality is no more dangerous a lifestyle than heterosexuality.

 

[All Else Failed]

It really doesn't matter if a holy book says to hate different people or not, religion naturally makes people hateful towards those who go against it.

 

[boxer810]

It really doesn't matter if a holy book says to hate different people or not, religion naturally makes people hateful towards those who go against it.

I agree with you somewhat on this.....


The Bible (or whatever Holy book people use) was meant to clearly state what is considered right and wrong in that particular religion, but somewhere along the way, our society has twisted those words to be hateful and condeming. If you are a Christian and believe in what we teach, then yes, you WILL go to Hell for being a homosexual, you WILL go to hell for not repenting your sins, and you WILL go to hell for not being saved.....HOWEVER.....NOWHERE in the Bible does it condone hating someone with different beliefs........our twisted society has done that.....

 

[Pudding Time]

I agree with you somewhat on this.....


The Bible (or whatever Holy book people use) was meant to clearly state what is considered right and wrong in that particular religion, but somewhere along the way, our society has twisted those words to be hateful and condeming. If you are a Christian and believe in what we teach, then yes, you WILL go to Hell for being a homosexual, you WILL go to hell for not repenting your sins, and you WILL go to hell for not being saved.....HOWEVER.....NOWHERE in the Bible does it condone hating someone with different beliefs........our twisted society has done that.....

True. The Christian religion is supposed to preach forgiveness, and thus has no room for hatred.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

Total contradiction!

Either you take the Bible only figuratively, or you take it completely literally.....which one??

Hold on, let me edit this....

What I mean is, you cannot take certain parts literally and certain parts figuratively.....it just doesn't work that way. It has to be one way or the other.

I am putting it to you that despite you growing up in a very religious family, that your Father was a minister, and your step-mother was a Sunday School teacher AND a minister, and that you have read the Bible many times over, many different texts, etc, that you are wrong....and that there are many theological scholars that would disagree with you.

Ok, for argument sake let's look at things "literally":
__________________
"Let the rivers clap their hands, let the hills sing for joy together before the Lord"
Psalm 98:8

Do rivers have hands? Do hills sing? If you know of any that do, please let me know.
__________________

Jesus took bread and said, "Take and eat; this is my body" (Matthew 26:26).

Did Jesus Christ intend for this statement to be taken literally?
_____________________

"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out," (Matthew 5:29)
____________________

Answer these questions and we may continue. Looking forward to your responses.

 

[dt3]

Well if you're going to twist clear statements in the Bible around, you could interpret it to anything you want, especially if you're going to somehow twist crystal clear statements like that. It's worth reminding you that this is the book YOU profess to live by, not me, I personally think it's a pile of crap. With that in mind, maybe you should really be pointing out the obvious statements in it, not me.

Total contradiction!

Either you take the Bible only figuratively, or you take it completely literally.....which one??


Hold on, let me edit this....


What I mean is, you cannot take certain parts literally and certain parts figuratively.....it just doesn't work that way. It has to be one way or the other.

Peter, I don't profess to live by it. I'm not a religious person at all. I have read a lot of the Bible though. And I think part of its beauty is how you can interpret it however you choose. Nobody can tell you what it says. 10 people can look at the same passage and take it 10 different ways.

 

[boxer810]

Peter, I don't profess to live by it. I'm not a religious person at all. I have read a lot of the Bible though. And I think part of its beauty is how you can interpret it however you choose. Nobody can tell you what it says. 10 people can look at the same passage and take it 10 different ways.

I agree....which is why, at least in the Christian religion, we are supposed to go to church. The Preacher is supposed to be the messenger from God to teach His followers what God really means in each passage in the Bible.....it's so complicated to try to explain though....especially if one is not a religious person, because as I look at it from the Athiest/Agnostic point of view, the Bible is just another storybook filled with fantasy tales of a time long forgotten....So I really do see what you're saying here.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

tick tock tick tock opcorn2:

Just kidding. Take your time.

 

[boxer810]

tick tock tick tock opcorn2:

Just kidding. Take your time.

:confused Either I'm having a blonde moment or that didnt pertain to me

 

[Maritxu]

This is what the Bible says about homosexuality

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

As you see, the Bible clearly condones the death penalty for homosexuals.
​

Jesus didn't though. Just note that

 

[boxer810]

Jesus didn't though. Just note that

Jesus wasn't the one in charge though....God is the Almighty....according to Christianity. God sets the rules, He decides what punishment fits which crimes, and He hands down his rules.....Jesus was subject to them just like all the rest....

 

[dt3]

Jesus wasn't the one in charge though....God is the Almighty....according to Christianity. God sets the rules, He decides what punishment fits which crimes, and He hands down his rules.....Jesus was subject to them just like all the rest....

But according to the Holy Trinity concept, Jesus and God are the same.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

:confused Either I'm having a blonde moment or that didnt pertain to me

Yes, it was directed to you. I was having fun in anticipation of a response from you from the last post I sent you (see previous page) following your response to my comment.

I know. It's a brain teaser. :ninja

 

[boxer810]

But according to the Holy Trinity concept, Jesus and God are the same.

Sort of, but not really....it's conceptual once again....

God is the ultimate being, while the Holy Spirit resides in each persons heart.....and once Jesus died and was crucified He became a part of the Holy Trinity.....up until that point, he was human, just like the rest of us, except his Father was a bit more famous than ours

Jesus was two separate beings....one totally divine, one totally human....he didn't become the divine being until he was crucified and resurrected.

 

[dt3]

Sort of, but not really....it's conceptual once again....

God is the ultimate being, while the Holy Spirit resides in each persons heart.....and once Jesus died and was crucified He became a part of the Holy Trinity.....up until that point, he was human, just like the rest of us, except his Father was a bit more famous than ours

Jesus was two separate beings....one totally divine, one totally human....he didn't become the divine being until he was crucified and resurrected.

So going back to your response to Maritxu's post, are you saying then that Jesus did advocate killing homosexuals?