How far is too far?

Users who are viewing this thread

Peter Parka

Well-Known Member
Messages
42,387
Reaction score
3
Tokenz
0.06z
Get your point dude, just want to know how you feel about my circumstance. I was brought up in a religion that if you left, your family and all your friends are told not to speak to you again. As I was brought up not to have friends outside my religion as that was wrong too, that meant pretty everyone in my life disowning me. In a lot of religions, it's not that simple to be brought up in them and then simply walk away.
 
  • 303
    Replies
  • 6K
    Views
  • 0
    Participant count
    Participants list

IntruderLS1

Active Member
Messages
2,489
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Get your point dude, just want to know how you feel about my circumstance. I was brought up in a religion that if you left, your family and all your friends are told not to speak to you again. As I was brought up not to have friends outside my religion as that was wrong too, that meant pretty everyone in my life disowning me. In a lot of religions, it's not that simple to be brought up in them and then simply walk away.

I think that is a travesty, and I can understand how it would foster a deep distrust of organized religion. People who take such a staunch, intolerant stand cause a lot of pain in the world, and should spend a little more time learning from the example that was Jesus' life. The Bible doesn't teach us to treat people like that! :(

Jesus was always getting into trouble with the staunch, intolerant types because He spent his time hanging out with normal people. People the religious types called sinners.

If Jesus Himself wasn't too good to treat people with respect, who the heck do I think I am to act better than another?

Sorry you had to go through that Pete. FWIW, that's not the way it was supposed to work. Hopefully eventually you'll see that we're not all like that.
 

Peter Parka

Well-Known Member
Messages
42,387
Reaction score
3
Tokenz
0.06z
I know that a lot of religious people arn't like that but some religions are more flexible than others. I take people as I find them and don't base it on their religion. Unfortunately in my experience most religions theology is judgemental and it influences a lot of its followers to be the same. Heck, the Bible teaches homophobia. I was brought up to think they were bad people and it wasn't until I became friends with some I wondered what was so bad about them and why should they be given a hard time if the're not hurting anyone.
 

IntruderLS1

Active Member
Messages
2,489
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
I know that a lot of religious people arn't like that but some religions are more flexible than others. I take people as I find them and don't base it on their religion. Unfortunately in my experience most religions theology is judgemental and it influences a lot of its followers to be the same. Heck, the Bible teaches homophobia. I was brought up to think they were bad people and it wasn't until I became friends with some I wondered what was so bad about them and why should they be given a hard time if the're not hurting anyone.

The Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong, but it in NO way teaches us to go out gay-bashing. It doesn't tell us to treat them like animals or anything crazy.

Homosexuality goes contrary to design. On that issue, everybody seems to agree. A problem with homosexuality that people don't like to talk about however, is that it is a dangerous lifestyle.

The actual "sin" of homosexuality (the act, not the emotion) is no different than the "sin" of disrespecting your parents. There is a passage in the Bible that teaches us that nobody is perfect. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Christianity teaches us that the reason Jesus came to earth was to redeem us from our sins. It doesn't say He came to redeem us from all of our sins except sodomy.

I have gay friends and gay family members. I recently quit smoking, but I'm pretty sure smoking wasn't the best lifestyle for me to be living in either. And I did it while I was a Christian none the less! :p

I think God works on us all individually, as we're able and willing to take steps.
 

Peter Parka

Well-Known Member
Messages
42,387
Reaction score
3
Tokenz
0.06z
The Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong, but it in NO way teaches us to go out gay-bashing. It doesn't tell us to treat them like animals or anything crazy.

Homosexuality goes contrary to design. On that issue, everybody seems to agree. A problem with homosexuality that people don't like to talk about however, is that it is a dangerous lifestyle.

If homosexuality goes contrary to design ( we are talking about Gods design I take it) then why did God create certain people to be naturally homosexual?
Once again, I really cant see how something can be wrong if it dosen't hurt anyone else.
 

IntruderLS1

Active Member
Messages
2,489
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
If homosexuality goes contrary to design ( we are talking about Gods design I take it) then why did God create certain people to be naturally homosexual?
Once again, I really cant see how something can be wrong if it dosen't hurt anyone else.

I don't know. We all have things in our lives we are naturally dispositioned for. Me personally, I have to struggle with being hot tempered. I keep in pretty decent check these days, but naturally I'm the type who wants to over do things in a negative way.

The best guess I could venture would be to say that overcoming our own natures makes us stronger in ways that no training could ever match.

I understand where you're coming from on this FWIW. It does hurt others though. It hurts the consenting partner first, by placing them in a dangerous situation. It hurts families that have to suffer the loss of a loved ones. It hurts the world when we lose people who are able to contribute positively to society. Doctors who will never heal again, teachers who will never teach again, philanthropists who will never be able to reach out a helping hand again, etc....

I feel the need to re-emphasize again though, that Christianity does NOT teach us to hate homosexuals. I love my Uncle to pieces. He's always the life of the party.
 

Peter Parka

Well-Known Member
Messages
42,387
Reaction score
3
Tokenz
0.06z
I don't know. We all have things in our lives we are naturally dispositioned for. Me personally, I have to struggle with being hot tempered. I keep in pretty decent check these days, but naturally I'm the type who wants to over do things in a negative way.

The best guess I could venture would be to say that overcoming our own natures makes us stronger in ways that no training could ever match.

I understand where you're coming from on this FWIW. It does hurt others though. It hurts the consenting partner first, by placing them in a dangerous situation. It hurts families that have to suffer the loss of a loved ones. It hurts the world when we lose people who are able to contribute positively to society. Doctors who will never heal again, teachers who will never teach again, philanthropists who will never be able to reach out a helping hand again, etc....

I feel the need to re-emphasize again though, that Christianity does NOT teach us to hate homosexuals. I love my Uncle to pieces. He's always the life of the party.

Erm..the Bible teaches hatred of homosexuality which Christians profess their beliefs on.
If a person gets hurt by consensual buggery then thats his look out and it dosen't hurt anyone else.
As for the other people it hurts, it only hurts them because of their own prejudice which is their problem. If they didn't have a problem with homosexuality, it wouldn't hurt them in the slightest.

Oh, and a hot temper is something which could hurt others because if you lose control with it you are likely to physically hurt someone so thats a completely different matter.
 

IntruderLS1

Active Member
Messages
2,489
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Erm..the Bible teaches hatred of homosexuality which Christians profess their beliefs on.
If a person gets hurt by consensual buggery then thats his look out and it dosen't hurt anyone else.
As for the other people it hurts, it only hurts them because of their own prejudice which is their problem. If they didn't have a problem with homosexuality, it wouldn't hurt them in the slightest.

Oh, and a hot temper is something which could hurt others because if you lose control with it you are likely to physically hurt someone so thats a completely different matter.

I don't think we're speaking each others language here Pete. In my understanding of the Bible, it doesn't teach us to hate homosexuals in any way. Some people obviously don't take it that way, but I would welcome the debate with any of them at any time.

I guess we'll call this one closed for a time. I think I understand where you're coming from, and hopefully I've made at least a little sense.

We'll talk about it again sometime I'm sure. It's sleepy time for me though. :) Have a great day!!
 

BadBoy@TheWheel

DT3's Twinkie
Messages
20,999
Reaction score
2
Tokenz
0.06z
Man.....This is going to hurt...

I have read the Bible cover to cover 3 times in my short life, curiosity more than anything else, most problems with our culture stem from ignorance, which in turn breed intolerance.

I do not remember reading anywhere where it said "Thou shall Stone Gay's"

It states that it goes against the will of God, the Old Testament was perhaps a bit hars and difficult to follow, Jesus never said he was going to "Change The Law", he stated clearly that he was "Going to perfect the law", he did so with love and tolerance to his own demise. So the story tells. You can take anything out of context and make it a beef with someone.

Personally I have never been able to figure out why those with the atheistic leanings have basically based thier ideology on what they see organized religion doing, rather than reading, researching and developing personal beliefs.

I have never felt judged by any congregation, basically I do not allow anyone to tell me what I am doing is wrong, that's an inside job, we are essentially born innocent as people, all the negativity is learned or taught.

Personally I feel as though our carnal desire was ORIGINALLY put there for procreation, if that instinct is true then sex with another male would make that null. I personally have no qualms with homosexuals, but do not expect me to say it is okay, in my life it is not. I just don't feel as though everybody has to side with me.

Bottom line, if you are true enough with your own convictions, then you should not have to convert the planet to feel okay about the decisions you make. I go to bed each night content that I did my best that day by mankind and have a desire to do a little better each day if I can.

Really simple, and man...what a horrible way to live....I should be stoned to death for what I believe:p
 

Peter Parka

Well-Known Member
Messages
42,387
Reaction score
3
Tokenz
0.06z
This is what the Bible says about homosexuality

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

As you see, the Bible clearly condones the death penalty for homosexuals.
 

BadBoy@TheWheel

DT3's Twinkie
Messages
20,999
Reaction score
2
Tokenz
0.06z
This is what the Bible says about homosexuality

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

As you see, the Bible clearly condones the death penalty for homosexuals.


You could also be stoned to death for adultery, women being..."loose" , stealing, and a variety of other things. Those were different times, I don't think homosexuality is punishible by death in our culture, but I can study the laws a little closer:p
 

Peter Parka

Well-Known Member
Messages
42,387
Reaction score
3
Tokenz
0.06z
By the way, I would just like to say what a pleasure it is discussing religion with Christians who put forward their argument in a respectful and non condesending way, you do yourself and your religion proud!:clap
 

BadBoy@TheWheel

DT3's Twinkie
Messages
20,999
Reaction score
2
Tokenz
0.06z
By the way, I would just like to say what a pleasure it is discussing religion with Christians who put forward their argument in a respectful and non condesending way, you do yourself and your religion proud!:clap

I ronically I simply refer to myself as having....Spiritual beliefs, I do not place myself in any particular sect.

I am certainly no atheist as I do believe in a God of sorts, just not what Baptists, Methodists or any number of the offshoots tell me to believe in.:)

There should be nothing preventing folks from having a dignified conversation about this stuff. I enjoy it:)
 

Peter Parka

Well-Known Member
Messages
42,387
Reaction score
3
Tokenz
0.06z
You could also be stoned to death for adultery, women being..."loose" , stealing, and a variety of other things. Those were different times, I don't think homosexuality is punishible by death in our culture, but I can study the laws a little closer:p

It is really an undeniable fact though that certain Christians pick out these kind of passages from the Bible to justify their hatred of homosexuals.
I have no problem with people thinking homosexuality is wrong, even though I disagree with them. I do however have a problem with people harrasing or even viewing homosexuals as somehow inferior.
 

COOL_BREEZE2

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,337
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
I'm seeing a recurring problem in the thread. It is assumed that "forcing" your children to attend church is the same thing as "forcing" them to believe in your religion.

In my opinion, you cannot force anybody to believe anything. Small children do not have the life experience to make decisions for themselves very well, and will default to what they have been taught. There is a time in all of our lives though, which the Christian Bible refers to as the age of accountability, when you become able to choose for yourself. This is the day you finally grasp what's going on around you, and spiritually become responsible for your own actions.

Tim and AEF were both raised Christian, and when they became old enough to decide for themselves, they converted (for lack of a better word).

Parents need to communicate with their children on levels that match the maturity level of that child. I personally believe in sharing many points of view with kids. In doing so, you're going to have to explain why you have made the choices you have made, and as such, why you feel it is your responsibility as a parent to raise them in that direction.

If your 16 year old doesn't want to go to church anymore, I think it is the right of the parent to force the issue. It should be explained though that even if they don't believe what the preacher is saying, church is a family function, and they are expected to be an active member of the family. Any punishment for not attending should be given on the basis of disobedience to the parent, not disobedience to the church.

Going to church has many secondary positives beyond the primary of learning about the faith. Even if the child hates church it should be a positive life experience. As adults, we all have to do things we don't want to do. It takes responsibility to do these things. I was "forced" to wash dishes as a kid. I hated every second of it for 10 years. Here I am as an adult though, and I'm still washing dishes. If I had never had to clean a day in my life, chances are I would have lived in my own filth for however many years it took to find the truth my parents gave me through chores.

Other positives are going to be choice of friends. Psychology classes (and I'm sure Mari can expand on this) taugh me that the most important factor in the forming of relationships is proximity. I'm not saying church kids are angels, and non-church kids are demons, but what I am saying, is that in GENERAL, there are going to be fewer bad influences to choose from out of the friend pool. There is going to be a higher average of engaged parents and strong families.

I don't believe in sheltering a child 100% from the world. I think the preachers kid syndrome is probably linked directly to overprotection as a young adult. If you have never been exposed to sex, drugs, or rock & roll, you won't be equipped to handle it when you finally leave your parents house. Practical education is crucial.

To what happened with Grace... This is sad. It was obviously said with tongue in cheek. Her words were twisted, and people who already have a beef with her ran with it. Tim is an excellent communicator. He has a keen ability to push the buttons he's looking to push. We all get upset when we're treated with dis-respect. There are examples in this very thread of several offenders.

The idea that Christians are somehow not allowed to get angry isn't based in reality. Jesus himself went ape style on some crooked money changers back in the day. Probably the first time in history "Jesus Christ" was used as an expletive! :jk

I think the fact that everybody is surprised to see her defend herself speaks volumes in the positive. If I, or AEF, or Pete decided to land some hard blows, nobody would notice.

Wow, what an EXCELLENT post Intruder. Nuff respek. Rep on the way.
 

COOL_BREEZE2

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,337
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
It is really an undeniable fact though that certain Christians pick out these kind of passages from the Bible to justify their hatred of homosexuals.
I have no problem with people thinking homosexuality is wrong, even though I disagree with them. I do however have a problem with people harrasing or even viewing homosexuals as somehow inferior.

It is also an undeniable fact that people of all religions/spiritual persuations....and atheists pick out certain kinds of passages to justify their beliefs. One might interpret a passage one way while another may interpret the same passage differently. Some take certain passages or words literally to suit their liking and others take it as parables, the way it was probably meant to be delivered to inspire thought.

Originally Posted by Peter Parka
This is what the Bible says about homosexuality

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
I don't see hatred here. Simply exposing that it is not in keeping with what is intended.
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
I don't see hatred here.Simply exposing that it is not in keeping with what is intended. Also I can interpret the last part as referring to a spiritual death.

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
I don't see hatred here.Simply exposing that it is not in keeping with what is intended and consequences of the spiritual life after.

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
I don't see hatred here.Simply exposing that it is not in keeping with what is intended and consequences of the spiritual life after.

As you see, the Bible clearly condones the death penalty for homosexuals.
I can interpret what was quoted not necessarily as referring to death in the literal sense but rather in the spiritual sense.
 

Peter Parka

Well-Known Member
Messages
42,387
Reaction score
3
Tokenz
0.06z
But the Bible is a very figurative work. It could be referring to eternal damnation as death, like it does in several other places.

If God inspired the Bible as Christians believe and is perfect, it would be an insult to him if he didn't make it crystal clear, especially if he expected people to live by it!
 

Tim

Having way too much fun
Valued Contributor
Messages
13,518
Reaction score
43
Tokenz
111.11z
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

I don't see how this can be conveyed any other way... "to be put to death" is an action and not a consequence.
 
78,875Threads
2,185,391Messages
4,959Members
Back
Top