How Can God Prove Himself?

[Minor Axis]

or what they thought was a god, but i agree, and any "Being" that has the power to do all that nifty stuff without mechanical or other means other than self..i will consider a god...no matter how many their might be. my point was based off of what i quoted M3ntal on..he stated that "no religion knew"..so not only did he acknowledge/accept other religious beliefs/gods, but he also took away his own.... according to his own religion

I was just being chatty and now rambling... I think the point is you have a group of people who are certain, they know who God is, when really it's just a glorified feeling based on emotional waves surging through their brains. No, God can't be disproven, but he can't be proven either. So where does that get us as a species looking to the future? Absolutely no impact what so ever, other than what we make of the Gods and demons created in our minds, and what we think they want us to do, even if they are imagined. And worse than being imagined, the worse thing about religion is they way humans twist the supposed will of God to gain advantage over their brothers and sisters. Even in Muslim countries, who think they are the most devote, religion is all about thinking the right way and more importantly, the control and power that the leadership holds over its subjects. Iran is the perfect example. I really don't think if the ruling party thought they were going to lose the election, they would walk away quietly. Committing voter fraud to maintain power is more important than later answering to their God. Rationalization comes easy when you are doing God's work because in essence you believe you are saving the people from themselves so God would approve.

Whenever people put themselves in the position of being the mouth piece of God, look out! And strict religious thinking is completely anti-democratic. The policy should be live and let live, and find your own way to the next life. But you'll never find that in a theocracy. Instead, you'll find the worst kind of crimes commited in the name of God. One primary difference between the East and West is that you can publicly bad mouth your God not worry about being murdered (unless they jump on a plane and come looking for you, as they did with Salman Rushdie). This is tolerance of which is in short supply in the Middle East. Any one here think God needs our help punishing the wicked? Let God deal with it. And if there was a God, I don't think he would approve of vigilante justice. Let the offender take his chances when he meets his maker (if there is such a being).

And Mhtal3at, this is not an attack against you, just a general philosophical statement which I'm sure you disagree with and may even be offended by it. If so, I apologize in advance as that is not my intent.

You must be joking, where would he get out this ID from, which office do you recommend?
Am sure the thing is different with God, what do you recommend for God to prove he is God, just name it, really!

That is the whole point of this thread. There is a possibility that extremely advanced beings could take on the appearance of a god. How would we know what we are dealing with? I'm completely serious regarding this question. If you look back, the question was posed, what happens if a face appears in the sky and proclaimed, "I AM GOD". Then he made some people disappear and caused a tidal wave to smash into NYC. Is this God? How would you know?

 

[dkwrtw]

lol that's a funny thought, some alien creature is just fucking with us.

 

[Codrus]

I was just being chatty and now rambling... I think the point is you have a group of people who are certain, they know who God is, when really it's just a glorified feeling based on emotional waves surging through their brains. No, God can't be disproven, but he can't be proven either. So where does that get us as a species looking to the future? Absolutely no impact what so ever, other than what we make of the Gods and demons created in our minds, and what we think they want us to do, even if they are imagined. And worse than being imagined, the worse thing about religion is they way humans twist the supposed will of God to gain advantage over their brothers and sisters. Even in Muslim countries, who think they are the most devote, religion is all about thinking the right way and more importantly, the control and power that humans hold over one another. Iran is the perfect example. Committing voter fraud to maintain power is more important than answering to their God. Rationalization comes easy when you are doing God's work.

Whenever people put themselves in the position of being the mouth piece of God, look out! And strict religious thinking is completely anti-democratic. The policy should be live and let live, and find your own way to the next life. But you'll never find that in a theocracy. Instead, you'll find the worst kind of crimes commited in the name of God. One primary difference between the East and West is that you can publicly bad mouth your God not worry about being murdered (unless they jump on a plane and come looking for you, as they did with Salman Rushdie). This is tolerance of which is in short supply in the Middle East. Any one here think God needs our help punishing the wicked? Let God deal with it. The offender take his chances when he meets his maker (if there is such a thing).

And Mhtal3at, this is not an attack against you, just a general philosophical statement which I'm sure you disagree with and may even be offended by it. If so, I apologize in advance as that is not my intent.



That is the whole point of this thread. There is a possibility that extremely advanced beings could take on the appearance of a god. How would we know what we are dealing with? I'm completely serious regarding this question. If you look back, the question was posed, what happens if a face appears in the sky and proclaimed, "I AM GOD". Then he made some people disappear and caused a tidal wave to smash into NYC. Is this God? How would you know?

:thumbup..i do not disagree, and some of the teachings of several religions are good thoughts/ideals/principles and the world might be a better place if we took all of the good and decent things out of all religions and combined them...but it would never last

lol that's a funny thought, some alien creature is just fucking with us.

with all we know and all we don't know,...it is not out of the realm of possibility, we could be a complex cell in some being/creature,...we could be an ant farm/science project...we could be drifting in the vacuum of space, just one of multitude of species who develop and nurture a belief in something greater than ourselves in an attempt to try and answer the age old question of why we are here and to bring us comfort in the fact that we don't know...and that scares the hell out of us......it could be a combination of things, the possibilities are endless.

as for myself...i cannot take the religious route....too many flaws, too many religions, too many gods, too much pain, too much suffering...too much of the stench of man who will always take a good idea and twist it to squeeze everything he can out of it for his own gain.

 

[mhtal3at]

I never said that I believed in god bro, I said that I don't know or care if he exists, that IF he is real he should not intervene at all in peoples lives, my point is that I get by just fine without god in my life, I have never prayed to him or asked him for anything, and I asked where you are from because I am curious bro, the way you talk(type, whatever) suggests to me that english is not your first language, I was just curious as to where you are from, don't answer me if you don't want to.

May be you should make up your point, when I argue you believing and complaining you say you don't. When I argue you as not, you say you are. When I argue both cases you say you are in between. Make up your point.

 

[mhtal3at]

That is the whole point of this thread. There is a possibility that extremely advanced beings could take on the appearance of a god. How would we know what we are dealing with? I'm completely serious regarding this question. If you look back, the question was posed, what happens if a face appears in the sky and proclaimed, "I AM GOD". Then he made some people disappear and caused a tidal wave to smash into NYC. Is this God? How would you know?

So even if a face shows up you won't believe he is God. Ahaaa... So what does it take to prove you that there is God(btw God is too glorified to show his face to people who don't believe in him, even when a prophet asks to be sure, there are only given a miracle, not a face. However, I want to to concentrate on the first part of you seeing God as whatever that can never prove themselves, not even if he shows up.

 

[mhtal3at]

lol that's a funny thought, some alien creature is just fucking with us.

You are contradicting yourself.

 

[Minor Axis]

:thumbup..i do not disagree, and some of the teachings of several religions are good thoughts/ideals/principles and the world might be a better place if we took all of the good and decent things out of all religions and combined them...but it would never last

The real problem is you could take all of the best teachings and before long, man would screw it up, if he ever followed it in the first place.

with all we know and all we don't know,...it is not out of the realm of possibility, we could be a complex cell in some being/creature,...we could be an ant farm/science project...we could be drifting in the vacuum of space, just one of multitude of species who develop and nurture a belief in something greater than ourselves in an attempt to try and answer the age old question of why we are here and to bring us comfort in the fact that we don't know...and that scares the hell out of us......it could be a combination of things, the possibilities are endless.

Agree 100%. :thumbup Scientists today haven't figured it out so it's a real strong possibility that religious beliefs with pre-historic origins un-muddled by rational thinking got it totally right.

as for myself...i cannot take the religious route....too many flaws, too many religions, too many gods, too much pain, too much suffering...too much of the stench of man who will always take a good idea and twist it to squeeze everything he can out of it for his own gain.

I tend to be spiritual. While I can't prove it, I would be thrilled to death (as it were) if our consciousness continues in some form after physiucal death. From a philosophical point, if you believe or hope that this life means something, hopefully it is something that lasts, not a lifetime of experiences and lessons learned that evaporate into nothingness. But I'd never argue it could not be the latter. We just don't know.

 

[Minor Axis]

So even if a face shows up you won't believe he is God. Ahaaa... So what does it take to prove you that there is God(btw God is too glorified to show his face to people who don't believe in him, even when a prophet asks to be sure, there are only given a miracle, not a face. However, I want to to concentrate on the first part of you seeing God as whatever that can never prove themselves, not even if he shows up.

A better question is would you automatically assume the face in the sky was God? And if God does not show his face, would the prophet be more likely to believe a voice in the dark or a voice in his head? If so, who's voice is it? Or does God manifest his intentions in just a "feeling" planted in the human that some particular "something" is the right thing to do or more importantly the will of God? Such a slippery slope, and such opportunity for abuse when applied to human psychology. Ya know, God told W to invade Iraq.

And regarding miracles, that is a huge leap of faith as what was the miracle, who witnessed it, and most importantly what can it be attributed to? Are you saying that every good thing that can't be explained is the work of God? Assumptions are the over riding factor in this discussion as nothing can be proven ever.

Bottom line, it is your right to believe and it is my right to question what can't be explained rationally.

Edit: To illustrate the problem with the face in the sky here are some choices:
* a man of Arabic descent with long flowing hair and a beard.
* a man who looks like Charlton Heston in The 10 Commandments.
* a black woman who looks like Woopi Goldberg.
* a guy who looks like Mao Zedong.
* a guy who looks like George W Bush.
* swirling smoke.
* a green face with one eye and antennas.
* a face that looks like a common field mouse.
* a face that appears to every person who looks upon it as their preconceived notion of what God should look like.*

*But really is the result of a Romulan mind machine that reads the thoughts of every mind who looks upon the image.

Which face would most likely be accepted as God's. I say it depends upon who you ask and what would it prove?

 

[mhtal3at]

You can't go away with it, you rephrase this

First you think you gave a retort Quote:
Originally Posted by Codrus

...i will go away now....for a little while anyway


, think again, there is a pretty big difference between Muslim and faithful, in order to become a Muslim, you have to be Faithful first(how can you believe in a religion that was sent down by God, to his Prophet, while you don't believe in neither or at least in one of them?)
A faithful person is(since you like quoting)
I will let Muhammed(PBUH) asnwer you from the Imam Nawawi's Fourty Hadeeth:Hadeeth number two:
Quote:
Imam Nawawi’s forty hadeeth – Yahya ibn Sharaf an-Nawawi

Hadeeth 2
Also on the authority of Umar ibn al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him), who said:
One day while we were sitting with the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah
be upon him) there appeared before us a man whose clothes were exceedingly white and
whose hair was exceedingly black; no signs of journey were to be seen on him and none of
us knew him. He walked up and sat down in front of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), with his knees touching against the Prophet’s (peace and blessings
of Allah be upon him) and placing the palms of his hands on his thighs he said, “O
Muhammad, tell me about Islam.”
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, “Islam is
to testify that there is no deity worthy of worship but Allah and Muhammad is the
Messenger of Allah, to perform prayers, to give zakat, to fast in Ramadhan, and to
make the pilgrimage to the House if you are able to do so.”
He said, “You have spoken rightly”; and we were amazed at him asking him and saying
that he had spoken rightly. He [the man] then said, “Tell me about iman.”
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, “It is to believe in Allah,
His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, and to believe in divine
destiny (qadr), both the good and the evil of it.”
He said, “You have spoken rightly.” He [the man] said, “Then tell me about ihsan.”
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, “It is to worship Allah
as though you see Him, and if you do not see Him, then (knowing that) truly He sees
you.”
He said, “Then tell me about the Hour.”
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, “The one questioned
about it knows no better than the questioner.”
He said, “Then tell me about its signs.”
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, “That the slave-girl will
give birth to her mistress, and that you will see barefooted, naked destitute shepherds
competing in constructing lofty buildings.”
Then he [the man] left, and I stayed for a time. The he [the Prophet (peace and blessings
of Allah be upon him)] said, “O Umar, do you know who the questioner was?” I said,
“Allah and His Messenger know best.” He said, “It was Jibreel, who came to teach you
your religion.”

It was related by Muslim.

P.S Iman is faithfulness.
Muhammed said it.
Now fix out what you mean, I am sure you got something better to say, and I am waiting for it.

Just so you know

I think you have sort of corruption, something tells me that your background tells you to think that Muhammed said that there were no prophets nor messengers before him, that is inaccurate anyway, and you have to know that all Muslims love all prophets and messengers the same, why not, God told us to(as you quoted), and we love God most, and believe in him, so we do as he says, and he says not to differentiate between them. __________________

To become this

Originally Posted by mhtal3at
First you think you gave a retort
, think again, there is a pretty big difference between Muslim and faithful, in order to become a Muslim, you have to be Faithful first(how can you believe in a religion that was sent down by God, to his Prophet, while you don't believe in neither or at least in one of them?) I dont..havent you figured that out yet?
A faithful person is(since you like quoting)
I will let Muhammed(PBUH) asnwer you from the Imam Nawawi's Fourty Hadeeth:Hadeeth number two:
P.S Iman is faithfulness.
Muhammed said it.
Now fix out what you mean, I am sure you got something better to say, and I am waiting for it.

Just so you know

I think you have sort of corruption, something tells me that your background tells you to think that Muhammed said that there were no prophets nor messengers before him, that is inaccurate anyway,(<--so now your calling one of the main figures in your religion a liar?) and you have to know that all Muslims love all prophets and messengers the same, why not, God told us to (messengers and prophets of God/Allah ...to quote Conner MacLeod "there can be only one")(as you quoted), and we love God most, and believe in him, so we do as he says, and he says not to differentiate between them.

You have lost the point, and just dazzling around like a drunk man, really. That's what happens when you lose the point, you distort others' words, and use them ...well check this out

because man has corrupted all religions with his greed, his lust for power and control over others

so what do you think, what lust do you get when you twist my own words t convince some demented person that you have proven something. In your face, I have proven you wrong. What are you going to do about it, distort more and allege you got me, huh?

 

[mhtal3at]

your still not answering the question or presenting a logical debate..you are a blind child sorry, I will not be dragged into that kind of cheap discussion, get to the point trying to paint within the lines....and yes i was quoting,...i was using your own religion against you really hahhahaha ,....i know your religion you apparently don't , i know several religions that is part of my background your background is corrupted,



maybe you should go away for some while and bring evidence that you got to something, corruption ..so why do you evade the point, is it because you lost? just that I said your definitions that you use were corrupted does not imply me meaning nor seeing that religion is corrupted.?


...funny you use that term when talking about religion..that is one of the reasons i don't believe...because man has corrupted all ..all religions? are you sure? sense you have a great background about religions, show me that ALL RELIGIONS are corrupted, show if you can(all you can is allege, and thinking you give a retort hehehe then some self-deceit that you won would make you feel good).


religions with his greed, his lust for power and control over others



you are going from A to 5 to L to 2,...so fix what you mean and what you are saying so people can understand you and respond , i am sure you have something better to say about something else I can't believe that you are using my own words against you, and then repeating them and saying that you use them against me, you are not making any sense really...why dont you sing us a verse of "chocolate rain",...it would have to be better than what you have presented us with so far

I see you let go of the point and trying to get it personal to convince me I lost the argument, I will ignore that, because there are much things more important that you and insulting you. Please, try to address the question after what I have clarified to you the difference between Muslim and Faithful. Don't try to play with words because it will eventually show that you aonly have a mind of a child, come on, these people over here are not idiots, they can tell that you evaded addressing the point. PLEASE ADDRESS THE POINT

 

[mhtal3at]

Agree 100%. :thumbup Scientists today haven't figured it out so it's a real strong possibility that religious beliefs with pre-historic origins un-muddled by

Which scientists, if you mean Islamic scientists, experts if you may call them, they did not only figure it out, they also proven it, through arguments of such, and they never lost it, thinking they are actually right, they have proven it, if you say not everything that is proven is right, why do you think that God has to prove himself in the first place?

 

[BornReady]

You don't understand, Quran was sent down in Arabic, it wan not translated and is in the same form as it had been 1431 years ago, people have it, people read it, people memorize it, and the Quran is the same in the form it was written in, so no way that it has been distorted if that's what you imply.

Makes sense. I can accept that.

as for Muhammed lying I don't think he would

If you're asking why Muhammed would lie, well, he might have lied for power and money.

Second, because God promised not to let it be distorted.

That's not quite what happened. What happened was Muhammed said that God promised not to let it be distorted. But maybe the Quran didn't even come from God. Maybe Muhammed lied.

Whenever people put themselves in the position of being the mouth piece of God, look out! And strict religious thinking is completely anti-democratic. The policy should be live and let live, and find your own way to the next life.

Very good point. I completely agree. Although I seriously doubt there is a next life. All the evidence indicates that a person's mind is the product of their brain. Therefore you should expect that your mind will cease to exist when your brain dies. Without your mind, you aren't you.

 

[Codrus]

lol that's a funny thought, some alien creature is just fucking with us.

You are contradicting yourself.

How is him finding humor in a thought contradictive?

The real problem is you could take all of the best teachings and before long, man would screw it up, if he ever followed it in the first place.

Exactly

I tend to be spiritual. While I can't prove it, I would be thrilled to death (as it were) if our consciousness continues in some form after physiucal death. From a philosophical point, if you believe or hope that this life means something, hopefully it is something that lasts, not a lifetime of experiences and lessons learned that evaporate into nothingness. But I'd never argue it could not be the latter. We just don't know.

i believe one can be "spiritual" in a sense and not believe in "God".
considering how our bodies are made up and how they function who is to say that our physical bodies aren't like billions of pieces of food here to sustain the planet in order for the planet to sustain those that live upon itand our energy/soul/spirit (what have you) is an integral part of this process that has a higher more mysterious purpose, could be to create lightning and rain, could be for the ozone or the sun , our energy/soul/spirit could be the very beginnings of star's... i wouldn't consider any of that evaporating to nothingness.
yes, you're right we don't know...no matter what is at the "end", i will not be disappointed.

 

[mhtal3at]

A better question is would you automatically assume the face in the sky was God? And if God does not show his face, would the prophet be more likely to believe a voice in the dark or a voice in his head? If so, who's voice is it? Or does God manifest his intentions in just a "feeling" planted in the human that some particular "something" is the right thing to do or more importantly the will of God? Such a slippery slope, and such opportunity for abuse when applied to human psychology.

And regarding miracles, that is a huge leap of faith as what was the miracle, who witnessed it, and most importantly what can it be attributed to? Are you saying that every good thing that can't be explained is the work of God? Assumptions are the over riding factor in this discussion as nothing can be proven ever.

Bottom line, it is your right to believe and it is my right to question what can't be explained rationally.

They can be explained rationally but let me tell you a question(as you advised me before to do some teaching in my comments, so please concentrate on learning more than trying to think of an answer to it, it's your advice anyway buddy.


you do see what such thinking does, you keep arguing, and it always ends up with you asking for proof, well, these guys' wish was granted, and see what they keep doing

91. Surat Ash-Shams, Meccan, 15 verses

(11) The Thamud (people) rejected (their prophet) through their inordinate wrong-doing, (12) Behold, the most wicked man among them was deputed (for impiety). (13) But the Messenger of Allah said to them: "It is a She-camel of Allah. And (bar her not from) having her drink!" (14) Then they rejected him (as a false prophet), and they hamstrung her. So their Lord, on account of their crime, obliterated their traces and made them equal (in destruction, high and low)!

54. Surat Al-Qamar, Meccan, 55 verses
(23) The Thamud (also) rejected (their) Warners. (24) For they said: "What! a man! a Solitary one from among ourselves! shall we follow such a one? Truly should we then be straying in mind, and mad! (25) "Is it that the Message is sent to him, of all people amongst us? Nay, he is a liar, an insolent one!" (26) Ah! they will know on the morrow, which is the liar, the insolent one! (27) For We will send the she-camel by way of trial for them. So watch them, (O Salih), and possess thyself in patience! (28) And tell them that the water is to be divided between them: Each one's right to drink being brought forward (by suitable turns). (29) But they called to their companion, and he took a sword in hand, and hamstrung (her).


7. Surat Al-A'raf, Meccan, 206 verses( I really recommend you read the whole thing, it really answers most of the questions raised here, just try to be objective and think out side the box)

(73) To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah. ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment. (74) "And remember how He made you inheritors after the 'Ad people and gave you habitations in the land: ye build for yourselves palaces and castles in (open) plains, and care out homes in the mountains; so bring to remembrance the benefits (ye have received) from Allah, and refrain from evil and mischief on the earth." (75) The leaders of the arrogant party among his people said to those who were reckoned powerless - those among them who believed: "know ye indeed that Salih is an apostle from his Lord?" They said: "We do indeed believe in the revelation which hath been sent through him." (76) The Arrogant party said: "For our part, we reject what ye believe in." (77) Then they ham-strung the she-camel, and insolently defied the order of their Lord, saying: "O Salih! bring about thy threats, if thou art an apostle (of Allah.!"

you do see what such thinking does, you keep arguing, and it always ends up with you asking for proof, well, these guys' wish was granted, and see what they keep doing.

 

[Minor Axis]

In your face, I have proven you wrong. What are you going to do about it, distort more and allege you got me, huh?

I don't follow your standard of proof. Arguing tit for tat is not proof.

 

[Codrus]

your still not answering the question or presenting a logical debate..you are a blind child sorry, I will not be dragged into that kind of cheap discussion, get to the point trying to paint within the lines....and yes i was quoting,...i was using your own religion against you really hahhahaha ,....i know your religion you apparently don't , i know several religions that is part of my background your background is corrupted,



maybe you should go away for some while and bring evidence that you got to something, corruption ..so why do you evade the point, is it because you lost? just that I said your definitions that you use were corrupted does not imply me meaning nor seeing that religion is corrupted.?


...funny you use that term when talking about religion..that is one of the reasons i don't believe...because man has corrupted all ..all religions? are you sure? sense you have a great background about religions, show me that ALL RELIGIONS are corrupted, show if you can(all you can is allege, and thinking you give a retort hehehe then some self-deceit that you won would make you feel good).


religions with his greed, his lust for power and control over others



you are going from A to 5 to L to 2,...so fix what you mean and what you are saying so people can understand you and respond , i am sure you have something better to say about something else I can't believe that you are using my own words against you, and then repeating them and saying that you use them against me, you are not making any sense really...why dont you sing us a verse of "chocolate rain",...it would have to be better than what you have presented us with so far

You can't go away with it, you rephrase this
To become this
You have lost the point, and just dazzling around like a drunk man, really. That's what happens when you lose the point, you distort others' words, and use them ...well check this out so what do you think, what lust do you get when you twist my own words t convince some demented person that you have proven something. In your face, I have proven you wrong. What are you going to do about it, distort more and allege you got me, huh?

I see you let go of the point and trying to get it personal to convince me I lost the argument, I will ignore that, because there are much things more important that you and insulting you. Please, try to address the question after what I have clarified to you the difference between Muslim and Faithful. Don't try to play with words because it will eventually show that you aonly have a mind of a child, come on, these people over here are not idiots, they can tell that you evaded addressing the point. PLEASE ADDRESS THE POINT

:wtf:you cannot be serious (i suddenly feel like John McEnroe)

 

[mhtal3at]

Makes sense. I can accept that.

If you're asking why Muhammed would lie, well, he might have lied for power and money.

That's not quite what happened. What happened was Muhammed said that God promised not to let it be distorted. But maybe the Quran didn't even come from God. Maybe Muhammed lied.


.

Power? Money? you do know that he was a shepard , it was his job even before the prophecy, no money did he need, he comes from a rich family, in fact, the belief in God only got him poorer, I suggest you read more about his life, try to get some objective book, at least ones that tell the truth



Again why would he lie, money, power, he already had them. In fact, his people(tribe) were the strongest of all Arab tribes and tried to convince him not to let all the good things he has, and leave prophecy, otherwise, he loses all the money and the things he owned.

 

[mhtal3at]

I don't follow your standard of proof. Arguing tit for tat is not proof.

It was not a respond to one of your comments, but when someone twists what you say to falsify you proving them wrong, to show that they prove you wrong, the ultimatum is proof, I got him, he only tried to get it personal, i know his way trust me, it's who he never loses arguments. Check what he did in my quotation, totally an act of some 1 grade minds really, check it and tell us.

 

[Codrus]

Power? Money? you do know that he was a shepard , it was his job even before the prophecy, no money did he need, he comes from a rich family, in fact, the belief in God only got him poorer, I suggest you read more about his life, try to get some objective book, at least ones that tell the truth

is it better to be penniless and your name live forever, or is it better to be rich for a time and forgotten ?

....the truth according to whom?



ok,...
1) please clarify what point would you like me to make to you
2) which religion would you like me use as an example of mans corruption of religion
3) if you are using a translation/grammar program, please find a different one...yours isnt working right

 

[mhtal3at]

is it better to be penniless and your name live forever, or is it better to be rich for a time and forgotten ?

....the truth according to whom?



ok,...
1) please clarify what point would you like me to make to you
2) which religion would you like me use as an example of mans corruption of religion
3) if you are using a translation/grammar program, please find a different one...yours isnt working right

Please, I will not answer your comments until you answer mine, the ones you just gave up, don't evade by quoting my comments on others' quotes. You know, quoting others' will not make me forget that you left something unanswered. And I don't evade things like you do, I won't leave it blank then say I win I win whatever I win, I prove what and I got no proof in fact. When you start answering what I asked YOU as if you were respectable, I may then give attention to your comments.