How Can God Prove Himself?

[BornReady]

he could show up at my door with a case of beer...lol

lol You're easy.

 

[mhtal3at]

YOU:
At least it's good to know that it is ok to follow something other than Muslim belief. However if you look at some of the most conservative religious, oppressive regimes, they don't seem to agree with that outlook.

Me: Prove it! and please, try not to use words like 'seem to' and so on in order to make something you are not sure of stronger


You:There is a reason, they are infidels. I don't believe most Muslims feel this way, but my impression is this is an attitude that exists or existed and was taught somewhere in the Muslim world. Saudi is the country that was mentioned.

Me : Believe it,
Muslim= Obeys Islam(Islam says you can't kill anybody, even if they were infidels)= Muslims believe they are not to kill infidels.
Simple equation

Bring me your evidence, no crap unproven talk please

You:

I see no reason why your religious beliefs trump spiritual crap.


Me: Prove me that spiritual crap do you good?

 

[Minor Axis]

YOU:
At least it's good to know that it is ok to follow something other than Muslim belief. However if you look at some of the most conservative religious, oppressive regimes, they don't seem to agree with that outlook.

Me: Prove it! and please, try not to use words like 'seem to' and so on in order to make something you are not sure of stronger

Iran.

There is a reason, they are infidels. I don't believe most Muslims feel this way, but my impression is this is an attitude that exists or existed and was taught somewhere in the Muslim world. Saudi is the country that was mentioned.

Me : Believe it,
Muslim= Obeys Islam(Islam says you can't kill anybody, even if they were infidels)= Muslims believe they are not to kill infidels.
Simple equation



Bring me your evidence, no crap unproven talk please

Try this: Islam Watch.

Sample:

“O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” (Sura 5, verse 51).
“And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah DESTROY them; how they are turned away!” (Sura 9, verse 30).
“And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.” (Sura 2, verse 120).
“And KILL them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.” (Sura 2, verse 191).
“Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.” (Sura 3, verse 28).
“And guard yourselves against the fire which has been prepared for the unbelievers.” (Sura 3, verse 131)
“And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open ENEMY.” (Sura 4, verse 101).
“O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).” (Sura 9, verse 123).
“Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire.” (Sura 76, verse 4).
“O you who believe! if you obey a party from among those who have been given the Book (The Jews and Christians), they will turn you back as unbelievers after you have believed.” (Sura 3, verse 100).
“And their taking usury (interests on money) though indeed they were forbidden it and their devouring the property of people falsely, and We have prepared for the unbelievers from among them a painful chastisement.” (Sura 4. verse 161).
“Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers (Jews, Christians and followers of other faiths) and has prepared for them a burning fire.” (Sura 33, verse 64).
“And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the unbelievers.” (Sura 48, verse 13).

So much for tolerance, or is this stuff made up? Maybe someone will jump in here, but I don't remember the Bible telling Christians to go attack the Non-Christians. I don't know, maybe it does?
​

I see no reason why your religious beliefs trump spiritual crap.


Me: Prove me that spiritual crap do you good?

It's not a matter of spiritual crap doing me good. It's a matter of being open minded and evaluating the evidence around us. There is no evidence that the Muslim religion is based on truth any more than any other belief. It has a lot of documentation, but nothing that meets the standard of a neutral based proof. You say you have proof, I call it religious proof which means nothing. In reality all you have is faith, which is fine to live by, but it proves nothing. I on the other hand have to prove nothing as I'm not trying to tell you "how it is". I'm telling you we don't know "how it is".

BTW, I don't begrudge you your religion. This is not about faith, this discussion is about proof. And if you believe in "live and let live", then all is well. But if Muslims believe that government is grounded in religious law and should be controlled by religious leaders, and everyone must follow Mohammad's way of thinking and it is worth going to war over, there there is a real problem. I've not said or implied that is you. I'm just throwing up a way of thinking that appears to be prevalent in the Middle East. Am I wrong?

 

[BornReady]

Maybe someone will jump in here, but I don't remember the Bible telling Christians to go attack the Non-Christians. I don't know, maybe it does?

Most Christians in the USA are tolerant of other religions. But then, so are most Muslims in the USA. I think it is more of a cultural thing than a religious one. America is founded on the principle of freedom.

You are probably correct that the Quran is less tolerant than the Bible. But this doesn't mean Christians are innocent in the Muslim/Christian conflict. Muslim women and children were slaughtered in the Crusades. Two favorite passages from the Bible used by crusaders were:

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

I have come not to bring peace, but a sword.

 

[Peter Parka]

Iran.

So much for tolerance, or is this stuff made up? Maybe someone will jump in here, but I don't remember the Bible telling Christians to go attack the Non-Christians. I don't know, maybe it does?
​

Hmmm...the Old Testament is full of God telling the Israelites to go out and attack, murder and rape foreign nations, men women and children.

 

[mhtal3at]

Me: A proof
You: Iran.

So one word is a proof? Great. :24:

Try this: Islam Watch.

LOL, I thought I'd find something interesting, all I could find is things fftopic:. However, Allah only says that he will punish those people, and who he ORDERED Muslims to kill are ENEMIES IN TIMES OF WAR, you really don't expect God to tell Muslims to go easy in wars, come on for God's sake, Israel kills civilians, US Soldiers kill and rape all of which to steal gas, and they don't go easy.

However, I HOPE I FIND SOME PROOF

“And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah DESTROY them; how they are turned away!” (Sura 9, verse 30).

Ok, so may Allah destroy them, I find no motive -as a Muslim- to kill, nor destroy any infidel. NO PROOF YET

“And KILL them (the unbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.” (Sura 2, verse 191).

Check the verse before it

(190) AND FIGHT in God’s cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression – for, verily, God does not love aggressors. (191) And slay them wherever you may come upon them, and drive them away from wherever they drove you away – for oppression is even worse than killing. And fight not against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first; but if they fight against you, slay them: such shall be the recompense of those who deny the truth.

Let's get back to what you said, NOT YET

“And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open ENEMY.” (Sura 4, verse 101).

Yes they are, but you are not to kill your enemy, I suggest you check this ENEMY
NO PROOF YET

“Surely We have prepared for the unbelievers chains and shackles and a burning fire.” (Sura 76, verse 4).

That's something between God and disbelievers, but I AM WAITING TO FIND A VERSE THAT ORDERS MUSLIMS TO KILL INFIDELS OTHER THAN IN TIMES OF WAR

*sighs* NO PROOF YET *rolls eyes*

“Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers (Jews, Christians and followers of other faiths) and has prepared for them a burning fire.” (Sura 33, verse 64).

(Jews, Christians and followers of other faiths) ???????????
WHERE THE FUCK DID YOU COME OUT WITH THAT, SO NOW YOU ARE MAKING THINGS UP.

“And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the unbelievers.” (Sura 48, verse 13).

Still no proof of Muslims being ordered to kill infidels

NO PROOF YET

 

[Alien Allen]

you guys are giving me a headache when you don't always use the quote buttons and change the colors and bold when responding

 

[BornReady]

US Soldiers kill and rape all of which to steal gas, and they don't go easy.

I don't think the US should have invaded Iraq. But I hadn't heard that US soldiers raped anyone. Where are you getting that information?

 

[Peter Parka]

I don't think the US should have invaded Iraq. But I hadn't heard that US soldiers raped anyone. Where are you getting that information?

At least I've never heard of them raping all, wonder what book ofv bullshit this guy gets that from? Maybe the one who worships this cunt.

 

[TheTinGirl]

My interest in this debate has been overcome by the migraine cause by looking at it. -_-

 

[Alien Allen]

My interest in this debate has been overcome by the migraine cause by looking at it. -_-

:nod::nod::nod:

:thumbup

 

[mhtal3at]

I don't think the US should have invaded Iraq. But I hadn't heard that US soldiers raped anyone. Where are you getting that information?

Google it

 

[Minor Axis]

NO PROOF YET

Regarding your outburst (not shown here, with giant red letters), I've made nothing up. That was all quotes from the linked site that I wanted you to refute if it was in error. Here is a book that speaks of Allah destroying infidels. Maybe this is not proof Muslims like killing infidels and maybe these references only apply to war time. I need to think on it. But I know there are humans out there who read about Allah destroying and burning infidels, and how much of a nudge do you think it takes before they take on the task of God's work for him?

Everyone, I realize this is off the topic of God Proving Himself. I'll try hard to get back to that. Sorry.

 

[Minor Axis]

you guys are giving me a headache when you don't always use the quote buttons and change the colors and bold when responding

I've all ready pointed the finger at the offender. I'm not using different colors or giant letters or mixing my replies in with the quotes.

 

[mhtal3at]

I need to think on it. But I know there are humans out there who read about Allah destroying and burning infidels, and how much of a nudge do you think it takes before they take on the task of God's work for him?

What humans? If you address Muslims, Muslims know for sure what that mean.
Remember

But this doesn't mean Christians are innocent in the Muslim/Christian conflict. Muslim women and children were slaughtered in the Crusades. Two favorite passages from the Bible used by crusaders were:

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

I have come not to bring peace, but a sword.

That was(eventually) an advantage of Islam's. You can avoid mistakes(wrong exegisis) done by before that were there way before you came. And Muslim Islamic exegisists insisted on making sure they give the right exegisis in order to avoid cultural conflict. Thus, they started to ask the people who were round the Prophet(PBUH) when such verse had been sent down from God, and in which case, and after what incident. So, all explanations of the Quran(which are already obvious to a 10-year-old Arabic-speaking kid), but they explained it anyway, it's like they felt someone who doesn't speak Arabic would try to distort the meaning, and give their own interpretation of it(which is not 100% correct, if not all wrong).


[/QUOTE]

Maybe this is not proof Muslims like killing infidels and maybe these references only apply to war time.

Don't say maybe.

Regarding your outburst (not shown here, with giant red letters), I've made nothing up.

I wonder who started using red to point to important takes.

That was all quotes from the linked site that I wanted you to refute if it was in error.

I really want to see someone who can shake the beliefs inside me, probably I am strong. However, the true reason is either one of two things, or both of these two things are true:
- All orientalists are jack***es, and they don't know how t study
- Islam is the only perfect thing
see? one thing leads to another, and that would only make Muslims' belief stronger, I forgot to tell you that someone I met a year ago was the biggest reason that I had a stronger belief. Oh that reminds me

To put a conclusion to the topic, Yes God can do anything, and can prove himself, and it did happen ( remember the she-camel, when they had the proof the asked, and still not believed), maybe you meant (Does God prove his existence anymore?) so I think the name of the topic was meant to be(Can people believe God's existence, even if they were given the proof they asked for?) and they answer is to be yes and no, not all of them have the BELIEF, no questions about people mistaking belief for proof, because, when you believe, you need no proof(not in all cases does that go, but the exception is when you believe, and ask for proof, you believe anyway, it's just something to make you sure you are proven for) but when you ask for proof, and you're not a believer, the chances are not even equal.
However, God knows better.

 

[Minor Axis]

To put a conclusion to the topic, Yes God can do anything, and can prove himself, and it did happen ( remember the she-camel, when they had the proof the asked, and still not believed), maybe you meant (Does God prove his existence anymore?) so I think the name of the topic was meant to be(Can people believe God's existence, even if they were given the proof they asked for?) and they answer is to be yes and no, not all of them have the BELIEF, no questions about people mistaking belief for proof, because, when you believe, you need no proof(not in all cases does that go, but the exception is when you believe, and ask for proof, you believe anyway, it's just something to make you sure you are proven for) but when you ask for proof, and you're not a believer, the chances are not even equal.
However, God knows better.

As far as our discussion, by the way I appreciate it, I don't hold your faith against you. I hope you don't hold my beliefs or non-committal against me.

Humans want to know what awaits them at the end of their lives. But I counter that wanting to know and knowing are two different matters. You can be so content and comforted with your religious beliefs, but that does not mean you are dealing with reality. You are convinced that the she-camel is proof positive of the existence of God, and while it could be a true story, I have no reason to believe it.

You (a general term) can claim to be devote, but if individuals spend their lives murdering fellow human beings in the name of God, it does not matter what you believe in. I think that carries much more weight than what Diety you follow. I do believe (without proof) that God as we know him is the creation of man. If there is a single intelligent being with the powers of God (as described in holy books), I think they got it wrong. If God is incredibly wise and all knowing, hopefully with minimal ego, I don't think it cares if you believe in it or not and I don't think it expects or thrives on being worshiped. If so, it is a self serving diety and not great at all. If we are its children, and it loves us, then seeing us grow and better ourselves is much more important than making a commitment in our earthly lives to something that for all practical purposes, does not exist. If it is there and cares, eventually we will see the truth. In the mean time, there is no compelling reason why we as human beings have to jump to conclusions.

I have no idea what awaits me at the end of my life. It does not bother me. Our views are divergent, but in the end I don't think it matters. I have no idea if there is judgment but if there is, I suspect that judgment is based on how you live your life and treat other human beings, animals, and even the Earth, not based on which version of a God you believe in. And according to religious beliefs, because we continue on as spirits, judgment could just be a ritual of self reflection on the successes and failures of our lives.

For fun, let's say we are a pool of spirits and when our time comes, we get attached to a body on Earth and a chance to experience physicality for a human lifetime. During that time Joe Blow kills Jane Doe and sends her spirit back up to heaven prematurely. And when Joe dies in the gas chamber or old age (your choice) she is up there waiting to scold him. What kind of punishment does he deserve for this? A slap on the knuckles? Being looked down upon by all his spirit buddies? Or burn in hell for eternity? I'm sorry but this burning in hell business has "human imagination" written all over it.

As far as God proving himself, it is virtually impossible to human beings living this life, unless of course, you are easily influenced. I don't expect you to agree.

 

[mhtal3at]

Suit yourself