How Can God Prove Himself?

[Codrus]

Did he just steal my BRO line??!!

apparently, but maybe you have convinced that its the way to go

 

[dkwrtw]

that's true, anything you say is more powerful with the word BRO attached, bro.

 

[Codrus]

that's true, anything you say is more powerful with the word BRO attached, bro.

indubitably,
Exodus 3:5-6 (King dkwrtw Version)

5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground Bro.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father Bro, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

[dkwrtw]

I tried to put that in my sig but it's too long

 

[Minor Axis]

Lol! You guys.

 

[Minor Axis]

Atheist annoy me greatly, how can anyone say for certain that there is no god? I don't claim to have all the answers, all I can say is that I've never personally seen anything that proves to me that he is real.

Atheists who are certain there is no God are just as far out on a limb as the religious types! I give Atheists who don't believe in God because his existence has not been proven, but are open minded to the possibility, they get a break.

Am not making fun or trying to by saying the Thamud, just thought you'd mix the two things up, that's all.


First, I did not quote verses that have the whole story, as you see it was mentioned in more than one place to show the significance on its own, for each place. The thing is that you can look up the story yourself.

Second, it is never of arrogance to ask question about God or so, because of you just worship for no reason, you are just imitating, the same as when you don't believe in God and it is proven to you(or you feel like it) and you just like to stay with the herd.

Arrogance, is not when you, but it is when it is proven to you that all that you believe in is your arrogance. They(Thamud) were proven to. However, they never believed, they asked question and it is OK, but when you are answered, and still don't want to believe, it is very arrogant. ASKING QUESTIONS IS NEVER ARROGANT BRO.

Which brings us back to the concept of proof. I consider myself objective and reasonable and I say God's existence as described* by mainstream religions has not been proven, so I'll keep on my life's journey for as long as I can. And if I'm wrong, my sincere hope is that God will forgive me for not being a Muslim, or a Christian, Buddhist, etc, whatever he wanted me to be. What really bothers me is that if I don't believe in Jesus, I'm going to Hell. Do Muslim's feel the same way about believing in Mohammad? What a dilemma! You get the idea?

* Not to imply there is no God.

As we have come to a loggerhead regarding the existence of God, maybe you'd like to speak of tolerance, if you feel like it. When it comes to religious tolerance, should there be more or should there be none or very little?

I believe the religious forces in the Middle East could stand to be more tolerant of contrary religious views. I'm not speaking specifically of the Palestinian-Israel crisis, just the way individuals are viewed if they don't think like you (not you, but a general term). Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the Qur'an speaks of killing infidels and these views were/are (?) taught in Saudi schools. Is it still like that? And if it is, should it be?

 

[dkwrtw]

Atheists who are certain there is no God are just as far out on a limb as the religious types! I give Atheists who don't believe in God because his existence has not been proven, but are open minded to the possibility, they get a break.

I think of those ones as agnostic, because they are at least open to the possibility that there is a god.

 

[Minor Axis]

I think of those ones as agnostic, because they are at least open to the possibility that there is a god.

I consider myself Agnostic, I'm open to the possibility, but I grew up with the Bible and it's seriously lacking in credibility when it comes to proving God's existence (as he is described), his/her nature and abilities, our relationship with him, along with judgment day, and the prospect of heaven and hell.

Would I be surprised if God and Heaven are exactly as described in the Bible? Frankly yes. Is it impossible? No, it could be possible. I just don't think it's likely. Could spiritual existence and/or human consciousness continue after physical death? I hope so , but don't know.

The Bible has some decent moralistic stories in it along with some atrocious stories imo. It can be argued that the 10 commandants are good rules, but proof of the God Heaven Human relationship, it is not. In the mean time life continues on until it ends with the big reveal!

 

[dkwrtw]

I consider myself Agnostic, I'm open to the possibility, but I grew up with the Bible and it's seriously lacking in credibility when it comes to proving God's existence (as he is described), his/her nature and abilities, our relationship with him, along with judgment day, and the prospect of heaven and hell.

Would I be surprised if God and Heaven are exactly as described in the Bible? Frankly yes. Is it impossible? No, it could be possible. I just don't think it's likely. Could spiritual existence and/or human consciousness continue after physical death? I hope so , but don't know.

The Bible has some decent moralistic stories in it along with some atrocious stories imo. It can be argued that the 10 commandants are good rules, but proof of the God Heaven Human relationship, it is not. In the mean time life continues on until it ends with the big reveal!

It is exactly the same with me, I was raised as a christian, and have read a good portion of the bible and the stories in it seem pretty fucking ridiculous to me, I've also came to the conclusion that if indeed there is a God he/she/it is not exactly as described in the bible.

 

[BornReady]

I think of those ones as agnostic, because they are at least open to the possibility that there is a god.

The word atheist means different things to different people. Some atheists simply mean a-theist (not-theist), where "a" means "not". In other words, they do not have a belief in a god(s).

An agnostic is someone who doesn't know whether God exists. It pertains to what you know, not what you believe. So you could be an agnostic Christian (I believe in God but I don't know for sure that he exists) or an agnostic atheist (I don't believe in God but I don't know for sure that he doesn't exist).

Atheism is the opposite of theism. I think agnosticism is the opposite of dogmatism. IMO, dogmatism on the existence of God is not a reasonable position.

Some atheists use the term atheist because the word agnostic makes it sound like they are indecisive. That they don't know what they believe. Atheists know what they believe (or don't believe in this case). Atheists don't believe in God and that is literally what the word means. I call myself an atheist for this reason.

 

[Minor Axis]

The word atheist means different things to different people. Some atheists simply mean a-theist (not-theist), where "a" means "not". In other words, they do not have a belief in a god(s).

An agnostic is someone who doesn't know whether God exists. It pertains to what you know, not what you believe. So you could be an agnostic Christian (I believe in God but I don't know for sure that he exists) or an agnostic atheist (I don't believe in God but I don't know for sure that he doesn't exist).

Atheism is the opposite of theism. I think agnosticism is the opposite of dogmatism. IMO, dogmatism on the existence of God is not a reasonable position.

Some atheists use the term atheist because the word agnostic makes it sound like they are indecisive. That they don't know what they believe. Atheists know what they believe (or don't believe in this case). Atheists don't believe in God and that is literally what the word means. I call myself an atheist for this reason.

Is the term agnostic atheist your term or is it accepted out there as a category of belief? There is a difference between someone who says "I don't believe in God" as in I have made my mind up and "I don't believe in God because there is no proof of God". The first one, the person has made a decision based on confidence. The second one the person is adding a condition. In actuality there could be no difference as the first person could change their minds based on "proof" which I've implied is nearly if not totally impossible.

 

[BornReady]

Is the term agnostic atheist your term or is it accepted out there as a category of belief?

It's common enough to have a wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism). The point is that agnosticism and atheism address two different things. It's possible to be both. In fact, all of the atheists I personally know are also agnostics. I've known some dogmatic Christians but I don't know any dogmatic atheists. Although I'm sure they exist.

There is a difference between someone who says "I don't believe in God" as in I have made my mind up and "I don't believe in God because there is no proof of God".

Absolutely. But they are both atheists. IMO, someone is either an atheist (don't believe in God), a theist (believe in God) or on the fence (don't know if they believe in God). Once someone has identified with either atheists or theists, they can decide whether they are dogmatic or agnostic. Or they could remain on the fence, uncertain of what they believe. In which case, they're just plain agnostic. Of course, I'm not Webster. This is just how I understand the words.

Someone saying they are an atheist actually doesn't tell you much about the person. A few atheists even believe in the supernatural. They just don't believe in a personal God. Atheist only tells someone what I don't believe. If you want to know what I do believe then you need to know that I'm a secular humanist. A lot of atheists are secular humanists but not all of them.

Incidently, someone saying they are a theist also doesn't tell you much about them. If they say they're a Christian you know more. If they say they're a fundamentalist Christian then run.

 

[Minor Axis]

Incidently, someone saying they are a theist also doesn't tell you much about them. If they say they're a Christian you know more. If they say they're a fundamentalist Christian then run.

I might add fundamentalist militant Muslim, the kind who were born 10 centuries too late... Thanks for the theist vs atheist info!

My question to mhtal3at:

As we have come to a loggerhead regarding the existence of God, maybe you'd like to speak of tolerance, if you feel like it. When it comes to religious tolerance, should there be more or should there be none or very little?

I wonder if he is busy or this is an issue unworthy of discussion?

 

[BornReady]

I wonder if he is busy or this is an issue unworthy of discussion?

I think religious tolerance is probably the most important religious discussion to be had. Atheism and theism are bad when forced on someone else. Communist Russia is an example of the first and there are too many examples of the later to name.

 

[mhtal3at]

Which brings us back to the concept of proof. I consider myself objective and reasonable and I say God's existence as described* by mainstream religions has not been proven, so I'll keep on my life's journey for as long as I can. And if I'm wrong, my sincere hope is that God will forgive me for not being a Muslim, or a Christian, Buddhist, etc, whatever he wanted me to be. What really bothers me is that if I don't believe in Jesus, I'm going to Hell. Do Muslim's feel the same way about believing in Mohammad? What a dilemma! You get the idea?

I don't get it. But I fell that your back ground tends to see Muslims as if they only believe in Islam, I don't know why you think you gave a retort but I know that I don't get what you mean, that needs more elaboration.

As we have come to a loggerhead regarding the existence of God, maybe you'd like to speak of tolerance, if you feel like it. When it comes to religious tolerance, should there be more or should there be none or very little?

I believe the religious forces in the Middle East could stand to be more tolerant of contrary religious views. I'm not speaking specifically of the Palestinian-Israel crisis, just the way individuals are viewed if they don't think like you (not you, but a general term). Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the Qur'an speaks of killing infidels and these views were/are (?) taught in Saudi schools. Is it still like that? And if it is, should it be?

Infidels are to live freely(who said they are to die?) (how do you know about the Saudi Arabia thing?why Saudi Arabia in particular?) ummmm

 

[Codrus]

It is exactly the same with me, I was raised as a christian, and have read a good portion of the bible and the stories in it seem pretty fucking ridiculous to me, I've also came to the conclusion that if indeed there is a God he/she/it is not exactly as described in the bible.

but the pictures are purdy :nod:

 

[Minor Axis]

I don't get it. But I fell that your back ground tends to see Muslims as if they only believe in Islam, I don't know why you think you gave a retort but I know that I don't get what you mean, that needs more elaboration.

You mean this?

And if I'm wrong, my sincere hope is that God will forgive me for not being a Muslim, or a Christian, Buddhist, etc, whatever he wanted me to be.

There are at least 4 major religions. Which religion does God want me to believe in? A better question, does he/she care?

Infidels are to live freely(who said they are to die?) (how do you know about the Saudi Arabia thing?why Saudi Arabia in particular?) ummmm

I can't give you a link, but it's been reported in the past (last 20 years) by the U.S. news media that in Saudi Arabia in elementary schools, children are taught that infidels are so repugnant that they don't deserve to live or something along those lines. If this is true, it is the perfect example of religious intolerance. This link is about Pakistan, not Saudi and claims that some Muslims believe killing infidels is not a sin.

Would you rather see a country where only the one true religion is allowed or a country where you are allowed to believe as you will?

Well, sometimes people think that they are already in the light. For example, Minor, I think that you are not in the light(you still have the chance LOL), and you think that I am not in the light, simple equation.

You are absolutely incorrect about how I feel about you. Standing in the light is self delusion, if the light represents a clear understanding of our relationship with God, knowing God true nature if he even exists, a clear understanding of our existence and place in the universe, or a clear understanding of our spiritual destination after physical death. Human beings take their best guess at all of this based on all manner of things that can't be categorized as proof.

Devotedly religious people based on self confidence tend to place themselves on a pedestal or in the light. The people who disagree with them are relegated to a lower position, as in your case, I am relegated to standing in the dark. But you can't help it as it is a normal human trait coming from those who feel they are superior in their values. No offense intended.

 

[mhtal3at]

You mean this?
There are at least 4 major religions. Which religion does God want me to believe in? A better question, does he/she care?

Well, God's religions are 3, historic records assert that Buddhism was a sort of moral courses that were later considered a religion(I know you understand that, but only mentioned this point to drift the discussion to where you want, let's wait and see what you aim at) However, if that's what you ask for(which religion to join if I want to follow God) then the answer is to be Jewish, Christian, Muslim(This is really not going anywhere since you ask in order to get to some certain point that WE have discussed before, let's see what you got new to add)

I can't give you a link, but it's been reported in the past (last 20 years) by the U.S. news media that in Saudi Arabia in elementary schools, children are taught that infidels are so repugnant that they don't deserve to live or something along those lines. If this is true, it is the perfect example of religious intolerance. This link is about Pakistan, not Saudi and claims that some Muslims believe killing infidels is not a sin.

Feels like you were educated there, LOL :24:
That is inaccurate, I only care what Saudi Arabia teaches, which is not what you allege buddy, killing anybody for no reason is a sin, God created that person, not you, so who are you to choose to kill these people if God let's them live?


Would you rather see a country where only the one true religion is allowed or a country where you are allowed to believe as you will?

Believe as you will, as long as no body hurts anybody else, so if someone does not accept people or their family to abuse them, or hurt them physically or emotionally, they should not accept to hurt others feelings. I don't need to remind you of wars that were declared only because of a football match(obsession) let alone a religion (belief).



You are absolutely incorrect about how I feel about you. Standing in the light is self delusion, if the light represents a clear understanding of our relationship with God, knowing God true nature if he even exists, a clear understanding of our existence and place in the universe, or a clear understanding of our spiritual destination after physical death. Human beings take their best guess at all of this based on all manner of things that can't be categorized as proof.

It's sarcastic and silly how people tend to believe in spiritual crap, and they don't believe in religion, and also how they tend to believe that nature created God, ok, so who created man???
I can imagine a storm coming to a junk yard(who created that in the first place????) then it leaves it messy, and a man comes out, LOL :24:


Devotedly religious people based on self confidence tend to place themselves on a pedestal or in the light. The people who disagree with them are relegated to a lower position, as in your case, I am relegated to standing in the dark. But you can't help it as it is a normal human trait coming from those who feel they are superior in their values. No offense intended. No offense, but that was really what I said, you are the one who said that I am in the light

Maybe he'll have mercy on you and make another attempt to help you see the light.

, so you probably know (better than I do) that I am (to you) in the light, so I am the superior one (to you) with THE SUPERIOR VALUES, thanks for the flattery

......................

 

[Minor Axis]

Mhtal3at, for the sake of quoted replies, PLEASE do not mix your replies into a quoted response because it makes it difficult to quote back a reply without extra work. You can see what a mess my response to you is.

You:

Well, God's religions are 3, historic records assert that Buddhism was a sort of moral courses that were later considered a religion(I know you understand that, but only mentioned this point to drift the discussion to where you want, let's wait and see what you aim at) However, if that's what you ask for(which religion to join if I want to follow God) then the answer is to be Jewish, Christian, Muslim(This is really not going anywhere since you ask in order to get to some certain point that WE have discussed before, let's see what you got new to add)

At least it's good to know that it is ok to follow something other than Muslim belief. However if you look at some of the most conservative religious, oppressive regimes, they don't seem to agree with that outlook.

You:

Feels like you were educated there, LOL :24:
That is inaccurate, I only care what Saudi Arabia teaches, which is not what you allege buddy, killing anybody for no reason is a sin, God created that person, not you, so who are you to choose to kill these people if God let's them live?

There is a reason, they are infidels. I don't believe most Muslims feel this way, but my impression is this is an attitude that exists or existed and was taught somewhere in the Muslim world. Saudi is the country that was mentioned.

You:

Believe as you will, as long as no body hurts anybody else, so if someone does not accept people or their family to abuse them, or hurt them physically or emotionally, they should not accept to hurt others feelings. I don't need to remind you of wars that were declared only because of a football match(obsession) let alone a religion (belief).

I'm glad to here that!

Me: You are absolutely incorrect about how I feel about you. Standing in the light is self delusion, if the light represents a clear understanding of our relationship with God, knowing God true nature if he even exists, a clear understanding of our existence and place in the universe, or a clear understanding of our spiritual destination after physical death. Human beings take their best guess at all of this based on all manner of things that can't be categorized as proof.

You:

It's sarcastic and silly how people tend to believe in spiritual crap, and they don't believe in religion, and also how they tend to believe that nature created God, ok, so who created man???
I can imagine a storm coming to a junk yard(who created that in the first place????) then it leaves it messy, and a man comes out, LOL :24:

I see no reason why your religious beliefs trump spiritual crap.


Me: Devotedly religious people based on self confidence tend to place themselves on a pedestal or in the light. The people who disagree with them are relegated to a lower position, as in your case, I am relegated to standing in the dark. But you can't help it as it is a normal human trait coming from those who feel they are superior in their values. No offense intended.

You:

No offense, but that was really what I said, you are the one who said that I am in the light

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and you were just being sarcastic, but you said:

Originally Posted by mhtal3at
Well, sometimes people think that they are already in the light. For example, Minor, I think that you are not in the light(you still have the chance LOL), and you think that I am not in the light, simple equation.

 

[justmee]

he could show up at my door with a case of beer...lol