How Can God Prove Himself?

[Minor Axis]

i believe one can be "spiritual" in a sense and not believe in "God".
considering how our bodies are made up and how they function who is to say that our physical bodies aren't like billions of pieces of food here to sustain the planet in order for the planet to sustain those that live upon itand our energy/soul/spirit (what have you) is an integral part of this process that has a higher more mysterious purpose, could be to create lightning and rain, could be for the ozone or the sun , our energy/soul/spirit could be the very beginnings of star's... i wouldn't consider any of that evaporating to nothingness.
yes, you're right we don't know...no matter what is at the "end", i will not be disappointed.

That's me in that I question the traditional view of God but I really want something to be on the other side.

Fingers crossed the adventure won't be over...

 

[Codrus]

ok,...
1) please clarify what point would you like me to make to you
2) which religion would you like me use as an example of mans corruption of religion
3) if you are using a translation/grammar program, please find a different one...yours isnt working right

Please, I will not answer your comments until you answer mine, the ones you just gave up, don't evade by quoting my comments on others' quotes. You know, quoting others' will not make me forget that you left something unanswered. And I don't evade things like you do, I won't leave it blank then say I win I win whatever I win, I prove what and I got no proof in fact. When you start answering what I asked YOU as if you were respectable, I may then give attention to your comments.

let me try again. if you read back..it was you who evaded/avoided mine initially, seeing as i did not/would not get a response i made my point and quoted your religious text's to prove it.

honestly, it is very difficult for me to understand most of your post's, they seem nonsensical to me (maybe i do have "the mind of a grade 1", but considering the age of the universe and the many different perceived "grand scheme of things"...im ok with that)

now if you would be so kind as to clarify what you would like me to answer for you, i will do my best with my "grade 1 mind"

**edit gees, now im doing it***

 

[mhtal3at]

let me try again. if you read back..it was you who evaded/avoided mine initially, seeing as i did not/would not get a response i made my point and quoted your religious text's to prove it.

honestly, it is very difficult for me to understand most of your post's, they seem nonsensical to me (maybe i do have "the mind of a grade 1", but considering the age of the universe and the many different perceived "grand scheme of things"...im ok with that)

now if you would be so kind as to clarify what would you like me to answer for you, i will do my best with my "grade 1 mind"

That works for me, with all my "all things that you don't understand" how about it's over. Quote as much as you like but I'll never answer you, unless (which is not gonna happen) I tell you not to. The same for me, I 'll degrade my style to such level. Done with you, I like your way btw, you lose, you say you win, and you got yourself some punch of psychos who will always support you, unfortunately it only works with stupid people who have been charmed by it, and try to do it to others, just like you got charmed , bye for ever, or until I tell you otherwise, which is not gonna happen either, maybe when you leave your herd, and admit defeat I'd) BYE BYE :waving:

 

[Codrus]

That works for me, with all my "all things that you don't understand" how about it's over. Quote as much as you like but I'll never answer you, unless (which is not gonna happen) I tell you not to. The same for me, I 'll degrade my style to such level. Done with you, I like your way btw, you lose, you say you win, and you got yourself some punch of psychos who will always support you, unfortunately it only works with stupid people who have been charmed by it, and try to do it to others, just like you got charmed , bye for ever, or until I tell you otherwise, which is not gonna happen either, maybe when you leave your herd, and admit defeat I'd) BYE BYE :waving:

what?...can someone please translate this for me...or at least make it make more sense?

 

[BornReady]

Power? Money? you do know that he was a shepard , it was his job even before the prophecy, no money did he need, he comes from a rich family, in fact, the belief in God only got him poorer

Do you seriously believe that? Yes, Muhammed came from a good family and was a successful business man before becoming a prophet. But it is naive to think that his success as a prophet and commander didn't bring him power and riches.

 

[BornReady]

what?...can someone please translate this for me...or at least make it make more sense?

you lost, na na na na naa

 

[mhtal3at]

Do you seriously believe that? Yes, Muhammed came from a good family and was a successful business man before becoming a prophet. But it is naive to think that his success as a prophet and commander didn't bring him power and riches.

He never saw it coming, what is he, a psychic?
In fact, power was nothing to him, he'd never for example let his relatives nor the ones he knew evade punishment if mistaken.
If evading the law is gone, what is power?

 

[Peter Parka]

:24::24::24:opcorn2:opcorn2:opcorn2:

 

[dkwrtw]

May be you should make up your point, when I argue you believing and complaining you say you don't. When I argue you as not, you say you are. When I argue both cases you say you are in between. Make up your point.

I never said that I believed in god, nor have I said that I don't believe in god, I have said over and over again that I am not here to debate with you whether he does or does not exist because I don't care whether or not he exists, the point we were arguing was whether or not the bible tells us how we are supposed to live our lives, which you deny, and which I believe it does, and have shown evidence that it does, your only responses to me have been nonsensical rants about me resenting god, or wanting something from god which I have made it clear from the start is not the case, the argument wasn't whether or not I believe in god, you have tried to turn it into such an argument when you had no answer for my original argument other than it "makes god sad" when people go against his word.

 

[Codrus]

you lost, na na na na naa

i did?....funny,...i don't really feel like i was the one who relinquished logic....did i just get transported to a "Bizzaro" plane of existence or something?

 

[Minor Axis]

what?...can someone please translate this for me...or at least make it make more sense?

I think he took his ball and went home, at least with you. Religious debates are really a big waste of time anyway. But I waste a good bit of time participating. No one is changing their minds, except maybe those sitting on the fence. You either believe or you don't. However the point of this thread was the difficulty if God really did decide to appear and say "here I am"! You'd have people who take him on face value without questioning at all and other suspicious types like you and me. I think God would have a tough time proving he's God at least for those who question.

i did?....funny,...i don't really feel like i was the one who relinquished logic....did i just get transported to a "Bizzaro" plane of existence or something?

I think he was just being funny. How do you win a religious debate anyway?

 

[Minor Axis]

They can be explained rationally but let me tell you a question(as you advised me before to do some teaching in my comments, so please concentrate on learning more than trying to think of an answer to it, it's your advice anyway buddy.


you do see what such thinking does, you keep arguing, and it always ends up with you asking for proof, well, these guys' wish was granted, and see what they keep doing

91. Surat Ash-Shams, Meccan, 15 verses

(11) The Thamud (people) rejected (their prophet) through their inordinate wrong-doing, (12) Behold, the most wicked man among them was deputed (for impiety). (13) But the Messenger of Allah said to them: "It is a She-camel of Allah. And (bar her not from) having her drink!" (14) Then they rejected him (as a false prophet), and they hamstrung her. So their Lord, on account of their crime, obliterated their traces and made them equal (in destruction, high and low)!

54. Surat Al-Qamar, Meccan, 55 verses
(23) The Thamud (also) rejected (their) Warners. (24) For they said: "What! a man! a Solitary one from among ourselves! shall we follow such a one? Truly should we then be straying in mind, and mad! (25) "Is it that the Message is sent to him, of all people amongst us? Nay, he is a liar, an insolent one!" (26) Ah! they will know on the morrow, which is the liar, the insolent one! (27) For We will send the she-camel by way of trial for them. So watch them, (O Salih), and possess thyself in patience! (28) And tell them that the water is to be divided between them: Each one's right to drink being brought forward (by suitable turns). (29) But they called to their companion, and he took a sword in hand, and hamstrung (her).


7. Surat Al-A'raf, Meccan, 206 verses( I really recommend you read the whole thing, it really answers most of the questions raised here, just try to be objective and think out side the box)

(73) To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah. ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment. (74) "And remember how He made you inheritors after the 'Ad people and gave you habitations in the land: ye build for yourselves palaces and castles in (open) plains, and care out homes in the mountains; so bring to remembrance the benefits (ye have received) from Allah, and refrain from evil and mischief on the earth." (75) The leaders of the arrogant party among his people said to those who were reckoned powerless - those among them who believed: "know ye indeed that Salih is an apostle from his Lord?" They said: "We do indeed believe in the revelation which hath been sent through him." (76) The Arrogant party said: "For our part, we reject what ye believe in." (77) Then they ham-strung the she-camel, and insolently defied the order of their Lord, saying: "O Salih! bring about thy threats, if thou art an apostle (of Allah.!"

you do see what such thinking does, you keep arguing, and it always ends up with you asking for proof, well, these guys' wish was granted, and see what they keep doing.

I really believe you are sincere in your belief but this is just a story whose validity is completely up to the reader to decide.

Allow me to summarize: By means of a trial, Allah sent out his She-Camel, a gift of value, to the arrogant Thamud people and because these people rejected him/their prophet, to prove the point, they ham-strung Allah's She-Camel. Instead of pitying them (his children whom he should love) and trying to help them find their way, Allah destroyed them. That last sentence is my take on the story.

Correct me if I'm wrong. The moral of the story is reject Allah and you will be destroyed. The assumption of the story is that Allah is real and these arrogant people rejected their God. I don't see any lessons learned "about questioning God". At least in this story the Thalmud people did not believe Allah was their God who held dominion over them. There was no mention of them asking questions, just rejecting. I see no lessons in the story to be learned from asking questions, which is what you said this story teaches, unless the lesson is "ask questions and you'll be destroyed." But again, these people asked no questions, they just rejected God whom I suppose they knew it was God and rejected him anyway.

Now here is the real problem, hopefully you agree that this story does not count as proof? If it meets your standard of proof, then we are wasting our time debating at all. I don't say this in anger, just realizing when a discussion is futile. I would categorize this story as religious education, a moralistic story who's purpose is convincing followers that bad things will happen to them if they reject God. Every religious debate I find myself in, the believer pulls out some script from their holy book as if this is proof of such revelation that the non-believer's head will spin and they will become a convert. Maybe it's impossible, but when you start using the word "proof", check out this link, it needs to be more than a religious story with a moral.

 

[Codrus]

I think he took his ball and went home, at least with you. Religious debates are really a big waste of time anyway. But I waste a good bit of time participating. No one is changing their minds, except maybe those sitting on the fence. You either believe or you don't. However the point of this thread was the difficulty if God really did decide to appear and say "here I am"! You'd have people who take him on face value without questioning at all and other suspicious types like you and me. I think God would have a tough time proving he's God at least for those who question.



I think he was just being funny. How do you win a religious debate anyway?

i wasn't trying to win and yes,...it is futile and at times exasperating, i wasn't trying to change his mind on his beliefs...i was probably going about it the wrong way but i believe that i was attempting to use what appeared to be his "WAY" (i really don't know how to describe it) turn it into something that was more logical/easier to understand and re-present it to him using his own religion as a retort/debate/response/question...just seems like i could never get a straight answer/understandable reply...or one that made sense to me....and when i offered to answer his question or to prove a point based upon something he could choose or ask..again..i never got an answer...just what seemed like gibberish (i admit i could not fully understand/read/grasp/comprehend the way he was posting/him)

maybe im just tired..but honestly, i did enjoy it (when i wasn't bruising my brain to understand)..but i am very rusty(National Foresics League in high school)

 

[mhtal3at]

I never said that I believed in god, nor have I said that I don't believe in god, I have said over and over again that I am not here to debate with you whether he does or does not exist because I don't care whether or not he exists, the point we were arguing was whether or not the bible tells us how we are supposed to live our lives, which you deny, and which I believe it does, and have shown evidence that it does, your only responses to me have been nonsensical rants about me resenting god, or wanting something from god which I have made it clear from the start is not the case, the argument wasn't whether or not I believe in god, you have tried to turn it into such an argument when you had no answer for my original argument other than it "makes god sad" when people go against his word.

I think the title of this topic is "How can ... prove himself"

 

[Codrus]

I think the title of this topic is "How can ... prove himself"

he could give me a succubus

 

[Minor Axis]

i wasn't trying to win and yes,...it is futile and at times exasperating, i wasn't trying to change his mind on his beliefs...i was probably going about it the wrong way but i believe that i was attempting to use what appeared to be his "WAY" (i really don't know how to describe it) turn it into something that was more logical/easier to understand and re-present it to him using his own religion as a retort/debate/response/question...just seems like i could never get a straight answer/understandable reply...or one that made sense to me....and when i offered to answer his question or to prove a point based upon something he could choose or ask..again..i never got an answer...just what seemed like gibberish (i admit i could not fully understand/read/grasp/comprehend the way he was posting/him)

maybe im just tired..but honestly, i did enjoy it (when i wasn't bruising my brain to understand)..but i am very rusty(National Foresics League in high school)

Lol. We are all in this to sway others, not necessarily win. Regarding winning a debate, there are two methods- 1) arriving at the truth 2) convincing the most people. The latter tends to takes precedence over the former. I don't think we'll ever know the truth at least during this life. Now how many people can we convince?

 

[Minor Axis]

he could give me a succubus

Alarm! NO you don't want that!! It's not worth it!!! But maybe the religious scholars got it wrong or just don't want you to have... FUN!

A succubus (plural succubi) is a female demonic legendary creature[1] who seduces men in their sleep. Religious tradition holds that repeated intercourse with an incubus or succubus may result in the deterioration of health, or even death.

 

[mhtal3at]

I really believe you are sincere in your belief but this is just a story whose validity is completely up to the reader to decide.

Allow me to summarize: By means of a trial, Allah sent out his She-Camel, a gift of value, to the arrogant Thamud people and because these people rejected him/their prophet, to prove the point, they ham-strung Allah's She-Camel. Instead of pitying them (his children whom he should love) and trying to help them find their way, Allah destroyed them. That last sentence is my take on the story.

Correct me if I'm wrong. The moral of the story is reject Allah and you will be destroyed. The assumption of the story is that Allah is real and these arrogant people rejected their God. I don't see any lessons learned "about questioning God". At least in this story the Thalmud people did not believe Allah was their God who held dominion over them. There was no mention of them asking questions, just rejecting.

Now here is the real problem, hopefully you agree that this story does not count as proof? If it meets your standard of proof, then we are wasting our time debating at all. I don't say this in anger, just realizing when a discussion is futile. I would categorize this story as religious education, a moralistic story who's purpose is convincing followers that bad things will happen to them if they reject God. Every religious debate I find myself in, the believer pulls out some script from their holy book as if this is proof of such revelation that the non-believer's head will spin and they will become a convert. Maybe it's impossible, but when you start using the word "proof", check out this link, it needs to be more than a religious story with a moral.

Thalmud?? They are the Thamud people, and it has nothing to do with the Talmud book.


First, I need you to know that they did not just reject(the Thamud people), in fact, they kept asking their prophet how their God can prove himself. Their prophet went for God to ask, and said they can choose and see. They chose something like a she-camel coming from inside a mountain. God said alright as long as you don't slaughter her. The thing was granted, and she came the mountain. The mountain cracked and it came out. They slaughtered it. The thing is that who keeps asking not for proof, but for evidence, they don't want anything but to challenge God. It's all, trust me, about arrogance. You just don't accept a superior entity, and the idea of the entity creating you, and mastering you. So you(not you you, but in general) keep your arrogance, and will never believe WHATEVER happens. I think the moral lesson is not that you should not reject God, because not everybody that rejects God is ruined, in fact, some of them actually convert for the best(for them, and for others eventually whatever). The moral is that if you want to change, you should first think outside the box(put aside the arrogance) then argue and debate as you like.

 

[Codrus]

Lol. We are all in this to sway others, not necessarily win. Regarding winning a debate, there are two methods- 1) arriving at the truth 2) convincing the most people. The latter tends to takes precedence over the former. I don't think we'll ever know the truth at least during this life. Now how many people can we convince?

i disagree with you there,...(im not trying to be rude,mean, insulting or appear spiteful) i don't want to sway him or convince him. after "dealing" with him and his posts, i feel that it would be more of a detriment than a benefit to have somone not easily understood attempting to speak to people on your behalf no matter what "side" you may be on or what ideology you may have.
(but he does appear to be getting better at times)

no offense intended, i just had a very difficult time understanding more than a few of his posts.

as far as your last question,..i believe that would depend upon the people involved in the attempt at each instance :thumbup

 

[Codrus]

Alarm! NO you don't want that!! It's not worth it!!! But maybe the religious scholars got it wrong or just don't want you to have... FUN!

i am fully aware of what a succubus is and what the potentials would be if i were to encounter one