American Wages and Healthcare Compared To Australia

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Panacea

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I totally understand, and THANK YOU so much for sharing your parent's story.

When I see stories like yours, it makes me want to grab the defenders of our current healthcare system status quo by the ears and rub their noses in it. One would have to be a complete blithering idiot to not be able to see the lives that are being destroyed by our current system. It does not have to be this way.

There is absolutely no reason for this to happen in the United States, yet so many misguided people still find some convoluted way to defend it.:crazy: :unsure:

I mean, cancer is horrible, it is painful and potentially fatal for anyone who gets it in any country with any system. I don't mean to blame all of my mother's problems on the system, but I have seen the toll it's taken on her.

My mother WORKED (she was a well paid cleaning lady, essentially) while on chemotherapy to keep up the bills. She went to work with her chemo bag on, mopping and hiding in the supply closet to rest. They had to force her to quit. She did not receive sick pay from her job, and only 6 months later was awarded disability, which we were not counting on.

No one should have to worry about money when they are sick and dying, they should be worried about making the best of the rest of their life, in peace.
 
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Panacea

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One of the big falicies about Obama Care is how much more it's going to cost. All those people who spend all day sitting in emergency rooms across the country are seen by the hospital and those costs are absorbed/passed on. So they are in the system. Some preventative coverage might lower overall costs.

What I'm not clear on is when someone with cancer shows up at the emergency room. I don't think they get placed in a cancer treatment program. So my guess is lots are denied. Can anyone confirm?

As far as I know, the emergency room is to make sure you won't die in the next thirty minutes, all of your limbs are sewn on, and there isn't blood spurting out of you uncontrollably...not cancer treatment. Those people would simply be given treatment to reduce immediate symptoms and given a referral to a specialist...which they cannot see, unless they somehow get taken pro bono, or as a charity case.
 

Accountable

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What point are you making regarding health care and bankruptcy?
I'm not. John brought it up. Talk to him.

Accountable - you are soooo full of bullshit, lol.

This thread is about healthcare. Try to stay on topic.
I responded to you. Take your own advice.


Johnfromokc said:
Do you have anything to contribute to the healthcare discussion? I'll throw this out for you too. Take a look at Panecea's parents situation:

Tell us how you feel when you read about yet another situation like this, Accountable.
Taking the anecdote at face value, I'd say there might be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit, but I'm no expert.
 

Johnfromokc

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Taking the anecdote at face value, I'd say there might be grounds for a malpractice lawsuit, but I'm no expert.

Malpractice?

What about a total system breakdown? Tell me Accountable - Should people in America be forced into financial destitution because of medical bills?

Is it not past time for healthcare reform in the United States?
 

Panacea

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Malpractice?

What about a total system breakdown? Tell me Accountable - Should people in America be forced into financial destitution because of medical bills?

Is it not past time for healthcare reform in the United States?

Hey, if it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen at all and it doesn't matter.
 

Accountable

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Hey, if it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen at all and it doesn't matter.
I see I've insulted you somehow. This is why I don't like discussing personal matters as if it were a global problems. It's inevitable that feelings will get hurt.

I'm out.
 

Johnfromokc

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I see I've insulted you somehow. This is why I don't like discussing personal matters as if it were a global problems. It's inevitable that feelings will get hurt.

I'm out.

Are you denying this is a global problem?????????????????????????????????????

Are you saying this is not a systemic problem???????????????????????????????
 

Panacea

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I see I've insulted you somehow. This is why I don't like discussing personal matters as if it were a global problems. It's inevitable that feelings will get hurt.

I'm out.

I'm not insulted. I aim to use reason at the same time I post something personal, especially in this case. I was even prepared for mockery, actually, I've read through enough of these political threads to know I'm not talking to cuddly warm people :p

My comment was just to say I think it's easy to depersonalize our health care system, the same way it may be easy to over emotionalize the system. Not everyone loses everything to bills in illness, but far too many do, in my opinion.

I wouldn't wish what my parents are going through on anyone, and I'd personally like to see this sort of thing prevented for other people down the road. That's all I feel about it.
 

skyblue

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What point are you making regarding health care and bankruptcy?



If you will acknowledge that a huge percentage of wealth is being held in a small number of hands, and getting larger (the %) every day, then you might agree that there is a problem instead of accusing me of hating rich people. This is an easy accusation to mitigate and discredit the person with the complaint, but it does not stand up to analysis. We are people, we will take what we can get, and in the corporate board room, if 10+ million a year in compensation is deemed appropriate then I'll abandon what ever morals I had when I was a regular human being because by god I deserve it. It's easy to fall into this mode of thinking more and more, just as it's easy to fall into the mode of justifying the disenfranchisement other less important expendable workers for the "good of the company". The "habit" of top management must be supported.

this is the problem globally,not just in healthcare......when a minority has the majority of the wealth everyone but they suffer,economies are at a standstill because of it......give one person 100'000'000 and he might buy one car.......give ten people 100'000 and they might buy a car each
 

Johnfromokc

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I see I've insulted you somehow. This is why I don't like discussing personal matters as if it were a global problems. It's inevitable that feelings will get hurt.

I'm out.

Awww come on Accountable. Don't quit now. Aren't you going to give us your libertarian spiel about personal responsibility and accountability?

I mean what the hell? Out of 1,500,000 people who declared bankruptcy in 2007, only 931,500 of them were directly attributed to the inability to pay medical bills, EVEN WITH INSURANCE. It will likely exceed 1,000,000 this year. Mere chicken feed.

Are those 1,000,000 medically bankrupt Americans just irresponsible slackers Accountable? Yeah, they should have had a couple hundred grand $$$$$ socked away if they were responsible citizens like you, right?

Hell, 1,000,000 bankruptcies is statistically insignificant isn't it Accountable?

It's just 1,000,000 personal matters isn't it Accountable?

And, what's another 1,000,000 medically bankrupt Americans each year between forum friends?

Yeah...bunch of damned slackers.....should have bought better quality health insurance.

But then again, just like you said:

.... can you think of a better reason to declare bankruptcy?

What do you imagine happens when one declares bankruptcy?

What better reason to declare bankruptcy than financial devistation through no fault of your own, right Accountable?

Hmmmmmm...What do I imagine happens when one declares bankruptcy? Let me guess.....Somebody throws a pinata party for you at the courthouse?

Here's the stats again for you in case you forgot:

This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60 percent of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills.

Bankruptcies due to medical bills increased by nearly 50 percent in a six-year period, from 46 percent in 2001 to 62 percent in 2007, and most of those who filed for bankruptcy were middle-class, well-educated homeowners, according to a report that will be published in the August issue of The American Journal of Medicine.

They concluded that 62.1 percent of the bankruptcies were medically related because the individuals either had more than $5,000 (or 10 percent of their pretax income) in medical bills, mortgaged their home to pay for medical bills, or lost significant income due to an illness. On average, medically bankrupt families had $17,943 in out-of-pocket expenses, including $26,971 for those who lacked insurance and $17,749 who had insurance at some point.

Overall, three-quarters of the people with a medically-related bankruptcy had health insurance, they say.
 

retro

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Because some of us actually believe it is morally wrong for a billionaire to pay a lesser percentage of his income in taxes than his secretary means we "hate" rich people? :dunno

Go ahead and admit it... you think that it's morally wrong for there to even be billionaires... that much is completely evident by the things that you have to say.


A conservo-bot, talk radio-bot, Boortz-bot, et al is someone who, despite being shown information that the rhetoric they keep repeating is factually incorrect, continues to parrot that rhetoric anyway. You, Accountable and Alien Allen fit that bill perfectly. You guys deny you listen to Hannity and Limbaugh and the like, but you somehow manage to repeat their talking points, and your political positions are nearly identical. You do realize all the right wing wannabee local radio show hosts parrot their millionaire nationally syndicated hero's don't you?

There you go, making motherfucking assumptions again... I'm really shocked. You do realize that not a single talk show host that I'm aware of is a proponent of the FairTax system. There's a political and economic ideal that vastly differs from the people you misguidedly say are my heroes. I also have stated on many occasions that I listen to local talk radio for LOCAL issues... you know, those issues that aren't effected by national politics? What a concept, right? Why don't you stop throwing around pathetic attacks and accusations for once... it's honestly pretty damn old sitting here listening to you drone on and on saying the same things over and over again. Blah blah people that have money are bad, blah blah Australia's health care system is awesome, blah blah it's unfair, unfair, unfair, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. You're a petty, jealous little man, and that much is completely evident by the crap you spew around here. Oh, and before you accuse me of an ad hominem there, I'm using that description of you in order to tear your arguments down. If it was in a courtroom, it would go to the character of the witness.

I find it infinitely amusing that it's okay for you to blast people for not agreeing with you, but God forbid if one of us do it to you. You can say we're conservative radio bots 'til you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true. Hell, I could say that the sky is green all I wanted to as well, and it would be equally as ludicrous as what you have to say.

Do you have something productive to add to this thread retro?

Define productive... because I haven't read a single productive thing that you've had to say.

How about you comment on Panecea's real life situation below:

How do you feel about that retro?

Without knowing all of the details of the situation, I couldn't really comment except to say that overradiation would be grounds for a malpractice suit. My grandparents had to pay a significant amount of money for my grandma's cancer back in 1995, including seeing a specialist all the way across the country. They owed a lot of money for it, beyond what insurance covered. But they were also able to pay it off.

The medical system that you seem to want for this country isn't feasible. Look at the economic numbers, look at the differences between here and Australia or anywhere else.

I'm going to lay this out one time, and perhaps you'll listen to it.

The Federal Government has no constitutional right to mandate healthcare to anyone. To do so would be a violation of the 10th Amendment. That being said, I believe that individual states have every right to implement their own single-payer health care system if they choose to do so. That is their right, as protected by the 10th Amendment. But it is patently unconstitutional for the Federal Government to mandate it. As I've said on countless occasions... I'm a Constitutionalist first and foremost. I believe in the principles of a small federal government and the rights of individual states to implement whatever policies they see fit, so long as they aren't in violation of the Constitution, or in conflict with a policy of the Federal Government that is Constitutionally protected.

Amazing concept, huh? I believe in the documents that this country was founded on. I'll break this down for you again, and perhaps you'll understand it.

I have no problem with single-payer health care... so long as it is implemented on a state level, and not a Federal level. The only way that I would support a Federally mandated single-payer health care system would be through a Constitutional Amendment. That's what the Amendment process is there for. If you believe so strongly in the subject, perhaps you should be pushing your elected representatives to propose a Constitutional Amendment that would allow the Federal government to mandate a single-payer health care system for the entire country. But until that happens, any move to make that system a reality is unconstitutional.

In short, my opinions are. Small Federal Government, States rights, adherence to the Constitution, end of the "wars" on terror and and drugs, legalization of marijuana, the rights of anyone to marry anyone of any sexual orientation, the abolition of the existing US Tax Code and implementation of the FairTax system, and the principle of non-interventionism. Please show me a national talk radio host that shares my beliefs. Oh wait, you can't. So why don't you stop throwing that bullshit around, because it only serves to make you look even more petty and pathetic.
 

Johnfromokc

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Go ahead and admit it... you think that it's morally wrong for there to even be billionaires... that much is completely evident by the things that you have to say.

You're not very perceptive are you? And you wonder why I classify you as a "bot".

You do realize that not a single talk show host that I'm aware of is a proponent of the FairTax system.

Why don't you try and bullshit soneone else? I'm onto your little game. The only reason you know about the "fair tax" concept is because of a talk show host:

icker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg


John Linder was my U.S. representative when I lived in Gwinnett County Georgia, BTW. I probably know more about the "fair tax" than you do. In fact, I'm certain I understand the fair tax on a more comprehensive level than you.

There's a political and economic ideal that vastly differs from the people you misguidedly say are my heroes.

Neal Boortz, the author of you beloved fair tax book, and nationally syndicated talk show host out of Atlanta shares your beliefs. As a matter of fact, you sound just like him with your whining faux bluster.

You're a petty, jealous little man, and that much is completely evident by the crap you spew around here. Oh, and before you accuse me of an ad hominem there, I'm using that description of you in order to tear your arguments down. If it was in a courtroom, it would go to the character of the witness.

This makes me :24:. Know why? Because if anyone had the right to piss and moan about taxes between the two of us, it would be me. I've got premium health coverage and an income in the top 5%. Would you like to compare net worth and income statements my blustering little man? But unlike you, I understand what life is like for the low income family, because I came from one, my little doctors baby boy. I'm an advocate for the uninsured, working class American, while you are a shill for the corporotocracy and the billionaire class for some unfathomable reason.

I find it infinitely amusing that it's okay for you to blast people for not agreeing with you, but God forbid if one of us do it to you. You can say we're conservative radio bots 'til you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true. Hell, I could say that the sky is green all I wanted to as well, and it would be equally as ludicrous as what you have to say.

Blast away. This is fun for me. And you have essentially been saying the sky is green on several issues. More on that in a moment.

Define productive... because I haven't read a single productive thing that you've had to say.

Oh, let's see...I have provided verifiable facts and statistics on the minimum wage and the fact that the number one cause of bankruptcies in America is due to families unable to pay their medical bills. While you, OTHO have contributed.....ummmm......nothing as yet.


Without knowing all of the details of the situation, I couldn't really comment except to say that overradiation would be grounds for a malpractice suit. My grandparents had to pay a significant amount of money for my grandma's cancer back in 1995, including seeing a specialist all the way across the country. They owed a lot of money for it, beyond what insurance covered. But they were also able to pay it off.

All you see here is "grounds for a malpractice suit"? You don't see any problem with medical bills ruining the lives of millions of Americans?

Your grand parents were very fortunate to have the means to pay this "significant amount of money". About 1,000,000 Americans each year cannot, and have their financial lives ruined.

The medical system that you seem to want for this country isn't feasible. Look at the economic numbers, look at the differences between here and Australia or anywhere else.

Explain why not? What numbers? Post them so we all can see them and discuss them.

We are the richest nation on the planet, and we cannot achieve a medical system like Australia or Germany?


The Federal Government has no constitutional right to mandate healthcare to anyone. To do so would be a violation of the 10th Amendment. That being said, I believe that individual states have every right to implement their own single-payer health care system if they choose to do so. That is their right, as protected by the 10th Amendment. But it is patently unconstitutional for the Federal Government to mandate it.

Ok, lets examine your position. The 10th amendment states:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Now, you claim this sentence makes a universal national American healthcare system unconstitutional. However the constitution also states:

Section 8.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;]

That gives congress very broad authority. Tell us where the constitution "prohibits" congress from legislating national health care?

Oh, and while you are at it, explain Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. The SCOTUS ruled on SS back in 1937:

http://www.ssa.gov/history/court.html

But this is not the first time you have been told this, hence your well deserved title of "bot". You repeat what you know is not true over and over as if repitition were the mother of truth.

As I've said on countless occasions... I'm a Constitutionalist first and foremost. I believe in the principles of a small federal government and the rights of individual states to implement whatever policies they see fit, so long as they aren't in violation of the Constitution, or in conflict with a policy of the Federal Government that is Constitutionally protected.

If you are going to claim you are a "constitutionalist" you should actually study the constitution for yourself instead of repeating your libertarian CATO type talking points.

Amazing concept, huh? I believe in the documents that this country was founded on. I'll break this down for you again, and perhaps you'll understand it.

I suggest you "break it down" for yourself and actually read those founding documents. And while you are at it, you might want to read some actual writings of the founders, instead of some libertarian guru's interpretation of them.

I have no problem with single-payer health care... so long as it is implemented on a state level, and not a Federal level.

What about poor states like Mississippi? What about low population states like Idaho, Wyoming, Montana or South Dakota that don't have the tax base to support universal health care?

The only way that I would support a Federally mandated single-payer health care system would be through a Constitutional Amendment. That's what the Amendment process is there for. If you believe so strongly in the subject, perhaps you should be pushing your elected representatives to propose a Constitutional Amendment that would allow the Federal government to mandate a single-payer health care system for the entire country. But until that happens, any move to make that system a reality is unconstitutional.

That is your incorrect interpretation of the constitution. The Supreme Court of the United States has already ruled it constitutional with its 1937 Social Security decision, whether you agree with it or not - it is the law of the land. No, it is people who interpret the constitution with a flawed political agenda like you who should be persuing the amendment angle.

In short, my opinions are. Small Federal Government, States rights, adherence to the Constitution, end of the "wars" on terror and and drugs, legalization of marijuana, the rights of anyone to marry anyone of any sexual orientation, the abolition of the existing US Tax Code and implementation of the FairTax system, and the principle of non-interventionism.

We actually agree on adherence to the constitution - you really should read it along with the founders original documents - the end of all those wars against brown people and drugs - and gay marriage.

"States Rights" has been used by scoundrels, religious fanatics and bigots since the Civil War to violate the rights of others. It's a flawed concept.

The fair tax is unfair to the working class. It's simple - How many cars and houses and consumer goods are the wealthy going to purchase and pay sales taxes on? Very few compared to the hundreds of millions of working class people. You really should spend a little more time actually thinking this unfair tax through.

Please show me a national talk radio host that shares my beliefs. Oh wait, you can't. So why don't you stop throwing that bullshit around, because it only serves to make you look even more petty and pathetic.

Here ya go:

http://www.boortz.com/s/about/

No retro, you're pathetic my friend. You'll come back and repeat the same old lines over and over and over again. Pretty sad.
 
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Johnfromokc

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But fuck it, I'm done attempting to have a rational discussion with a demagogue.

OK, everybody sing along:

Bada bomp bomp bomp, another BOT bites the dust! And another BOT gone and another BOT gone, another BOT bites the dust! Hey! Gonna get you too! (AA) Another BOT bites the dust!

Everybody do da BOT dance!! :willy_nilly: :bates::nanajig::nanajig::bates::willy_nilly:


:24::24::24:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE
 

retro

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All I got out of what John just had to say was, "blah blah blah I'm better than you are". Yeah, that about covers it. Not worth wasting my time to even attempt to have a rational discussion with a demagogue like him.
 

retro

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Oh, and John... I have a copy of all of the Federalist Papers, that I've read through about 3-4 times. I've also read the entire constitution and did a research paper on it in college. If you had actually read anything in either one of those collected works, you'd more than likely have a vastly different belief system.

I also appreciate how you refer to me as a "bigot" because I'm a proponent of States' rights. Impressive. :rolleyes:

With that, I actually am out. I fully expect this little troll to continue to go after me, but I'm quite frankly past the point of caring anymore. Come over to the forum in mine and Tim's sigs, the libs need another nutjob to help support them... and you fit that description perfectly.
 

Panacea

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My question is simply, non-threateningly, do you feel our health care system (not the care itself but the cost) is a good one?
I just wonder...and if you do, I wonder why.

My guess would be those who are comfortable with the system we have going on feel the alternative would simply be unconstitutional. I think that's a mental block, because I don't feel it has to be that way. I would also guess these people aren't very aged, and haven't experienced the health scares that occur in the late 40's and 50's and onward, making this whole thing more real.

Especially given the fact the majority are men, who hardly ever seek health care anyway. It doesn't come into daily life, and it's easy to have a hard heart about it.

Sometimes I feel like defending the constitution without question is more about defending the idea of America, rather than protecting the citizens of America. I'm not a huge America slappie, because I don't like some of the attitudes that come out of this place, but in a way I care more about this country than some people who claim to bleed it's colors...it's nothing without the people in it. Of course this is a vastly more emotional argument than political, but I think it's important to humanize politics sometimes.
 

retro

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Our health care system needs reforms, of that much I am certain. However, as someone that has spent his life around health care providers and professionals, and spent my own time in the industry, I know that a single-payer system isn't the answer either. I'm in my late 20s, and I've had plenty of my own health issues. I'm bipolar, have a chronic headaches, a separated shoulder that is eventually going to need surgery, a bad knee that will more than likely need replacement in another 10-15 years, and the list goes on. I've also paid for the costs associated with child birth already as well, when I had pretty crappy insurance.

You can call my opinion a mental block, but in my view, it's me holding to my standards. I also don't have a hard heart about it, because as I mentioned, I have my own health issues and have to go to the doctor every 2-3 months for the most part. I also don't have an issue with there being health care provided for those that can't otherwise afford it, but my issue lies with it being provided by the federal government. It's a states rights issue, plain and simple. But, being a believer in separation of powers and limitation of the federal government makes me a bigot in John's estimation.

Like I've said, we need health care reform... but Obamacare wasn't the answer, nor is a single-payer system.
 

Panacea

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You can call my opinion a mental block, but in my view, it's me holding to my standards.
Like I've said, we need health care reform... but Obamacare wasn't the answer, nor is a single-payer system.

This is what I meant by the mental block, though, if the system needs fixing, why is change (and I'm not talking the President's slogan, just the literal form of it) being impeded? It's as if there is a false dichotomy being held up in the decision making process...it's either this or full-blown, everyone dies in a fire, hide yo kids, hide yo wife socialism. (And those who don't have the power to fix it directly, why support that false dichotomy?)

That thinking doesn't help anyone, and here we are.

And don't get me wrong, I don't claim to be a political expert, or try to assert my opinion as fact, and I have a bias coming from the mental health field that I work really hard to try to stay objective about. It's just the way I see it, and I hate watching people suffer for no legitimate reason.
 
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retro

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Huh? I just said that it needs fixing, but I don't believe Obamacare or single-payer to be the answer. Doesn't that tell you that I'm in favor of a different solution? Plus, change wasn't impeded... just this version of change. Do you realize that the Republicans submitted their own health care reform plans during the Obamacare debate? They were summarily dismissed and ridiculed by the left and their media partners (let's not start a FNC debate here people, I'm talking about the media outlets that lean firmly left here). There may be a mental block for others, and if that's what you're saying I apologize for misunderstanding. But at the same time, the fact that the Republicans were willing to try and come up with their own solution tells me that they believe we need a change in how things are run as well. I don't necessarily think that their idea was any better than Obamacare, but it was another option that was barely even discussed.

My dad is firmly a Republican, and he's a health care provider, and we've had long discussions about what needs to change in our current health care system. But the vast majority of physicians are opposed to any sort of single-payer system, as they feel it would impede their ability to provide quality care to their patients. These are normal everyday doctors... general practice (as in the ones that don't make millions of dollars). They all recognize that things need to change, but the majority of them feel that Obamacare caused things to change for the worse.
 
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