American Wages and Healthcare Compared To Australia

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Minor Axis

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More of the same old same old.

I think we get you hate the wealthy

I too don't like the big box store way we have gone and the pay some execs get but if you think exec pay being curbed is the answer I think you are dreaming Minor. ;)

Ah, only speak for yourself and your wrong (as usual :ninja) and I'm getting tired of saying it. I don't hate wealthy people. I only dislike them greatly when they act like greedy bastards.
 
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Johnfromokc

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Where does the constitution forbid free women or booze?

And nothing is free. Australian healthcare isn't free, Canadian healthcare isn't free. That's like saying the US military is free (500 billion dollar a year budget) because I don't get a bill in the mail with "stealth bomber" and "Abrams tank" on it.

You are absolutely right. Everything has a price. You can pay as you go, or borrow and spend like we are currently doing, fighting two ongoing wars and lowering taxes.

How much sense does that make?

Tell me pet sounds, how do you feel when you read stories about Americans going bankrupt because of medical bills they cannot pay, like Panecea's parents.
 

Pet Sounds

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You are absolutely right. Everything has a price. You can pay as you go, or borrow and spend like we are currently doing, fighting two ongoing wars and lowering taxes.

How much sense does that make?

Tell me pet sounds, how do you feel when you read stories about Americans going bankrupt because of medical bills they cannot pay, like Panecea's parents.
I think that is a false dichotomy. People are always saying we would rather spend more on wars and other stuff than healthcare, but we spend a ton on healthcare. The US Governments spends far more money providing healthcare per citizen than any nation on earth. Why we spend all that money and sometimes get the results of your example, I don't know.
 

Accountable

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Seriously, are you trying to justify people facing bankruptcy because they can't pay their fucking medical bills?
Did I say that? Nope. Didn't say that. Pay a little better attention.

But not that you bring it up, can you think of a better reason to declare bankruptcy?

What do you imagine happens when one declares bankruptcy?
 

Johnfromokc

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I think that is a false dichotomy.People are always saying we would rather spend more on wars and other stuff than healthcare, but we spend a ton on healthcare.

Hardly a false dichotomy. When a nation lowers taxes and then engages in massive spending, then borrows money and pays interest on the accumulated debt to pay for the additional spending, it's a real dilemma in and of itself. Add in the health care issue on top of the unfunded wars and we have an enormous problem.

The US Governments spends far more money providing healthcare per citizen than any nation on earth.

This may well be true that we spend the most on health care - I believe it is true. The reason we spend so much is simply because we are so hard headed in defending the status quo. Australia has figured it out, and has dealt with it. The United States, however, fights healthcare reform tooth and nail. Uninsured people in droves head to the emergency room for treatment because they cannot be turned away - but this is the most expensive form of health care, and a huge reason we spend so much per person, and another reason health insurance is becoming unaffordable to more and more Americans each day.

Why we spend all that money and sometimes get the results of your example, I don't know.

It's a whole lot more than "sometimes". This bears reposting:

This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60 percent of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills.

Bankruptcies due to medical bills increased by nearly 50 percent in a six-year period, from 46 percent in 2001 to 62 percent in 2007, and most of those who filed for bankruptcy were middle-class, well-educated homeowners, according to a report that will be published in the August issue of The American Journal of Medicine.

They concluded that 62.1 percent of the bankruptcies were medically related because the individuals either had more than $5,000 (or 10 percent of their pretax income) in medical bills, mortgaged their home to pay for medical bills, or lost significant income due to an illness. On average, medically bankrupt families had $17,943 in out-of-pocket expenses, including $26,971 for those who lacked insurance and $17,749 who had insurance at some point.

Overall, three-quarters of the people with a medically-related bankruptcy had health insurance, they say.

Source: http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/...ls-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH

No, it's not a "sometimes happens" deal. It is an increasing epidemic. The time has come to put politics aside and fix our healthcare system and do right by our fellow Americans. It's time to stop fighting amongst ourselves and get it together and stop allowing peoples lives to be ruined because that cannot afford to pay their medical bills. There's a better way. Australia and Germany are two nations who have proven this.
 

cam elle toe

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We pay a small percentage of our income as a "medicare levy". If you are unemployed/retired/disability, you get a health care card and dont pay a cent.

You can choose to have private cover as well, which gives you the options of dental, physio, massage, your choice of a private hospital and doctor etc.

I have never had private cover.
 

Panacea

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No is ever denied emergency/stabilizing treatment. Federal law prohibits such things. Nobody with a brain chooses between a doctor and food. lol at people starving in the US. Anyone in that dire need of food easily gets food stamps. And a lot of them. These services already exist. I know, because I have been on both sides of the issue. You can basically be middle class and still get food stamps. They are handing them out with unemployment benefits these days.

But you also live in the absolute worst and mismanaged state in the nation so some of what you're saying might be true. The government there is like the fucking wild west. lol at detroit. I can buy a two story house there for like $20 and a neighborhood for a few hundred. But still nobody will buy the hellholes. Michigan is the deadest state in the nation. It has no future. Its biggest export is college graduates. Decades of failed liberal policies have destroyed it.

Emergencies, yes, like I said, they took me. The elderly man at my store...I'm not sure what happened with that but he was denied transportation. I have heard of at least one person in my area passing from cancer because they were not given treatment without insurance. Fundraisers were held, but it wasn't enough.

"lol at people starving in the US"
You're clearly ignorant to this reality, it happens, foodstamps aren't golden tickets. I have personally chosen not to receive them because I am morally opposed to it in my personal case, but I have heard they don't solve every problem.

I'm not a liar, you may disagree with my opinions, but everything I state as fact is as true as I'm aware of.
I work with a woman in the very situations you claim cannot happen.

One can play devil's advocate, but if you're going to tell me the US health care system is a good one, it can't be taken seriously. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying though.
 

Panacea

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Uninsured people in droves head to the emergency room for treatment because they cannot be turned away - but this is the most expensive form of health care, and a huge reason we spend so much per person, and another reason health insurance is becoming unaffordable to more and more Americans each day.

:crazy:
 

Johnfromokc

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Did I say that? Nope. Didn't say that. Pay a little better attention.

Yes, you did. Knock off the bullshit and get real.

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But not that you bring it up, can you think of a better reason to declare bankruptcy?

OMFG! I can't believe you just said that.


75292-DoubleFacePalm.jpg

What do you imagine happens when one declares bankruptcy?

Why don't you enlighten us, oh beacon of societal wisdom.
 

purpledove

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I know my mother's social worker has been attempting to prepare her for losing the house.

I've heard some older folks do mention that bcoz of medical bills, they go about with the program called reverse mortgage loan. I dont actually understand quite well how it works but it seemed from the explanation of those folks they also pay high interest and have their home as collateral for that loan. It doesn't sound good to me but they are left with no option.

I feel sorry for your parents being in the situation you mentioned :(


Tell me pet sounds, how do you feel when you read stories about Americans going bankrupt because of medical bills they cannot pay, like Panecea's parents.

I've known of folks too who have lost their homes and like Panacea's parents have worked many years and paid their taxes. They thought they'd saved themselves some good retirement money only to be shocked that it's not enough to pay medical bills. I know someone who was showing me pics of their used to be home which they've lost and currently live with her husband in a mobile home. They live in a community that has a high crime rate as it's what they said is cheapest to live at. I can't really seem to understand too why this is happening in America. It's affecting lots of retired and retiring Americans- which is very sad of course :(

This may well be true that we spend the most on health care - I believe it is true. Uninsured people in droves head to the emergency room for treatment because they cannot be turned away - but this is the most expensive form of health care

No, it's not a "sometimes happens" deal. It is an increasing epidemic. The time has come to put politics aside and fix our healthcare system and do right by our fellow Americans. It's time to stop fighting amongst ourselves and get it together and stop allowing peoples lives to be ruined because that cannot afford to pay their medical bills. There's a better way. Australia and Germany are two nations who have proven this.

I agree that it's a increasing epidemic. I see it every time where some e.g. prisoners obtain approval for unnecessary operations of a non enlarging, non- painful, non cancerous mole that they've had for years which never bothered them. Yet coz they have rights for medical attention and threaten to sue the State detention are approved for such surgery.

Some 7 y/o kid too covered under the medicaid coverage c/o his grandma was approved for an aesthetic surgery . This kid was being teased in school for having big ears which in actuality doesn't really look like big ears. The surgery was done when in fact there are other life threatening and more important surgeries out there where the money wld have been spent on.

Most uninsured drug addicts too abuse services of county hospitals. They have learned the technique that when they complain of chest pain- they become the first priority in the ER and are abe to obtain free narcotics even if they have history of addiction to such. If such people are able to obtain medical help--How about the rights of tax payers like Panacea's parents and many others??? Why is there so much inequality?? How abt those who fake and exaggerate their pain and medically considered disabled due to their subjective pain related to some past injury/medical condition ?? That even if they can work- they make it appear that they're in extreme pain to not be able to work hence they're the ones able to obtain free medical coverage?? Is that fair?? *sighs*
 

Zorak

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Where does the constitution forbid free women or booze?

And nothing is free. Australian healthcare isn't free, Canadian healthcare isn't free. That's like saying the US military is free (500 billion dollar a year budget) because I don't get a bill in the mail with "stealth bomber" and "Abrams tank" on it.

Semantics... Yeah I've seen that point a few times before.
Free at point of use is clearly what I, and everybody else, means... Just because you get a free dvd in a newspaper doesn't mean it has 0 production costs. It's still free though.
 

Accountable

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retro

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Ah, only speak for yourself and your wrong (as usual :ninja) and I'm getting tired of saying it. I don't hate wealthy people. I only dislike them greatly when they act like greedy bastards.

The implications of the things that both you and John have to say speak quite to the contrary.

This is where John flies off the handle, calls me a conservative radio-bot (whatever the fuck that really means), and acts impressed with himself for thinking he vanquished someone that he doesn't agree with.
 

Johnfromokc

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The implications of the things that both you and John have to say speak quite to the contrary.

Because some of us actually believe it is morally wrong for a billionaire to pay a lesser percentage of his income in taxes than his secretary means we "hate" rich people? :dunno


This is where John flies off the handle, calls me a conservative radio-bot (whatever the fuck that really means), and acts impressed with himself for thinking he vanquished someone that he doesn't agree with.

A conservo-bot, talk radio-bot, Boortz-bot, et al is someone who, despite being shown information that the rhetoric they keep repeating is factually incorrect, continues to parrot that rhetoric anyway. You, Accountable and Alien Allen fit that bill perfectly. You guys deny you listen to Hannity and Limbaugh and the like, but you somehow manage to repeat their talking points, and your political positions are nearly identical. You do realize all the right wing wannabee local radio show hosts parrot their millionaire nationally syndicated hero's don't you?

Do you have something productive to add to this thread retro?

How about you comment on Panecea's real life situation below:

My parents are in hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt from my mom's cancer, which she is dying from because she had been given too much radiation (now I didn't believe this, she always said they did this to her and I said she was paranoid. I trust doctors here a lot and give them the benefit of the doubt but her own ER nurse has been lamenting that she'd been over treated. That nurse works with the doctor my mom had) I'm sure that happens other places too, just saying. My mom has relatively good insurance, which my dad has been able to get from his job on the condition he doesn't get a raise in pay (hasn't for 10 years).

My parents will never be able to live a normal life again, that debt will hound them forever. It's sickening. How do they think the stress of those bills affect people's health?? Ugh, I just...

How do you feel about that retro?
 
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Accountable

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Because some of us actually believe it is morally wrong for a billionaire to pay a lesser percentage of his income in taxes than his secretary means we "hate" rich people? :dunno
There you go with that strawman. find one quote here where anyone supported billionaires paying a lesser percentage of their income than anyone else.*

*not that I expect you to address this any more directly than you address anything else.
 

Minor Axis

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Did I say that? Nope. Didn't say that. Pay a little better attention.

But not that you bring it up, can you think of a better reason to declare bankruptcy?

What do you imagine happens when one declares bankruptcy?

What point are you making regarding health care and bankruptcy?

The implications of the things that both you and John have to say speak quite to the contrary.

This is where John flies off the handle, calls me a conservative radio-bot (whatever the fuck that really means), and acts impressed with himself for thinking he vanquished someone that he doesn't agree with.

If you will acknowledge that a huge percentage of wealth is being held in a small number of hands, and getting larger (the %) every day, then you might agree that there is a problem instead of accusing me of hating rich people. This is an easy accusation to mitigate and discredit the person with the complaint, but it does not stand up to analysis. We are people, we will take what we can get, and in the corporate board room, if 10+ million a year in compensation is deemed appropriate then I'll abandon what ever morals I had when I was a regular human being because by god I deserve it. It's easy to fall into this mode of thinking more and more, just as it's easy to fall into the mode of justifying the disenfranchisement other less important expendable workers for the "good of the company". The "habit" of top management must be supported.
 
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Johnfromokc

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There you go with that strawman. find one quote here where anyone supported billionaires paying a lesser percentage of their income than anyone else.*

*not that I expect you to address this any more directly than you address anything else.

Accountable - you are soooo full of bullshit, lol.

This thread is about healthcare. Try to stay on topic.

Do you have anything to contribute to the healthcare discussion? I'll throw this out for you too. Take a look at Panecea's parents situation:

My parents are in hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt from my mom's cancer, which she is dying from because she had been given too much radiation (now I didn't believe this, she always said they did this to her and I said she was paranoid. I trust doctors here a lot and give them the benefit of the doubt but her own ER nurse has been lamenting that she'd been over treated. That nurse works with the doctor my mom had) I'm sure that happens other places too, just saying. My mom has relatively good insurance, which my dad has been able to get from his job on the condition he doesn't get a raise in pay (hasn't for 10 years).

My parents will never be able to live a normal life again, that debt will hound them forever. It's sickening. How do they think the stress of those bills affect people's health?? Ugh, I just...

Tell us how you feel when you read about yet another situation like this, Accountable.
 

Panacea

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I just want to say I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for my family or change their stance about anything (I'm sure everyone knows our health care system can sometimes destroy people's lives), I was just putting it out there since it applies to the thread and has been troubling for me to make sense of.
 

Johnfromokc

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I just want to say I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for my family or change their stance about anything (I'm sure everyone knows our health care system can sometimes destroy people's lives), I was just putting it out there since it applies to the thread and has been troubling for me to make sense of.

I totally understand, and THANK YOU so much for sharing your parent's story.

When I see stories like yours, it makes me want to grab the defenders of our current healthcare system status quo by the ears and rub their noses in it. One would have to be a complete blithering idiot to not be able to see the lives that are being destroyed by our current system. It does not have to be this way.

There is absolutely no reason for this to happen in the United States, yet so many misguided people still find some convoluted way to defend it.:crazy: :unsure:
 

Minor Axis

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And no one is ever denied treatment in this country?

One of the big falicies about Obama Care is how much more it's going to cost. All those people who spend all day sitting in emergency rooms across the country are seen by the hospital and those costs are absorbed/passed on. So they are in the system. Some preventative coverage might lower overall costs.

What I'm not clear on is when someone with cancer shows up at the emergency room. I don't think they get placed in a cancer treatment program. So my guess is lots are denied. Can anyone confirm?
 
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