American Wages and Healthcare Compared To Australia

[Panacea]

People are not denied reasonable access to health care.

You think it's reasonable to stick people with bills worth thousands of dollars for simple procedures when they do not qualify for state assistance but cannot fit outrageous monthly insurance costs into their budget?

And no one is ever denied treatment in this country?

No one ever has to choose between feeding their children and going to the doctor because of the outrageous costs (which I would argue is unreasonable)?

Some idiot didn't just rob a bank for $1 so he could get health care in jail?

I had an elderly man in my store back when I was a manager at a CVS. He was having what we feared was a heart attack, and when I called for emergency services, the driver told me he could not be transported to the hospital without $400 up front. I had to send our makeup lady to take him.

I am not convinced universal health care is necessarily appropriate for the US, it has drawbacks and flaws, maybe too much for this country to adopt, but what we have going on now is absolutely ridiculous. If you're going to site the original vision for the US, I'd argue this isn't quite it either.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Moonie, I hope you don't mind, but I wanted to comment further on your post below from the thread that led to this one.

SwamiWoman!

OK, this one tickles me an has me intrigued. I'm sure there's a story behind it I'll learn of some day.

I know you don't do politics but as someone who lives over there can you detail for us (just a bit) some of the things mentioned here? Namely this quote from John:

"Why can Australia provide it's people with universal health care, a $15 per hour minimum wage, 4 weeks paid vacation with a vacation premium pay, and have a 4.9% unemployment rate."

I would assume you're paying higher taxes than us?

I posted the Australian income tax rates above already. They seem to have diferent attitudes about taxes, and seem to be able to see the broader benefit that we Americans can't seem to grasp. One prime example is how they handled the recovery from the recent Queensland floods. The damage from any disaster must be repaired and paid for. The Australian government applied a levy on incomes over $50,000 for fiscal year 2001-2012. This is a brilliant move because Australians are paying as they go, and not borrowing money to cover it. Details here:

http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8202524/gillard-confirms-flood-levy

American's would be incensed and go ballistic at the mere suggestion of a pay-as-you-go levey to cover disasters. "It's not my fault those idiots built on a flood plain! Why should I have to pay? Let 'em suffer"! Yet, we all pay anyway as the American government borrows even more money and pays even more interest on that debt because we don't dare burden the rich to contribute any more than the absolute minimum lest they withhold their benevolent "job creation" from the rest of us.

I've read that Sweden's taxes are high. BUT you get many things back as a citizen for those dollars. Like healthcare, long vacations, higher education, extended maternity-leave, etc. That there are countries that actually use their tax dollars for their citizens and not for war, bailouts & foreign nations. (Novel concept)

Indeed, you do get what you pay for. We borrow money to pay for wars instead of raising taxes and paying as we go for what we spend. Then we arrogantly call nations that pay as they go and look out for their own people "Socialists" as if that is a bad thing.

I understand that we as children are raised to believe we live in the best nation in the world. Funny. When I look around now, I don't see the nation I grew up in. All one has to do is look at our airports now yet we are expected to remember 'they hate us for our freedoms'.

Here lies the heart of America's problem. Extreme nationalism is not a virtue, and is often used to turn one group of citizens against another, as is currently happening to us right now. We have one part of the working class calling nearly half leeches. The "47% of American's don't pay taxes" myth comes to mind. This myth has been perpetuated by right wing media outlets like the Drudge Report -yes, Drudge is right wing - and parroted by the right wing talk establishment. The result is a divided populous, fighting amongst ourselves, while our incomes continue to decline, and the fortunes of the monied classes increase.

So MsCam, if you could detail a bit about your taxes and the benefits you get for them I'd be grateful :ninja As one who cannot afford health insurance any longer I'd be curious about what having 'free' healthcare is like?

Cammie, please check my info for accuracy:

"Free healthcare" is a misnomer. Australians pay for their "cover" as I've heard it called, through taxes and private, strictly regulated premiums for "private cover". The system is two-tiered - "Public Cover" and "Private Cover". All Australians pay the 1.5% Medicare tax.

.....As one who cannot afford health insurance any longer....Interesting that in the greatest country in the world I had to make a choice between putting food on the table & keeping the lights on in the roof over our head or health care for three.

Reading this breaks my heart and angers me at the same time. I have lost count of the families I know of in this situation.

How does this happen in the "greatest contry in the world"? How does this happen in the RICHEST country on the planet?

And you know what angers me even more? When some arrogant, uneducated individual comes out and repeats the talk radio line about how people in this situation "pay no taxes" and other such ludicrous misinformation. These people are often one missed paycheck from forclosure and eviction themselves, yet they have turned against their own friends, families and coworkers, mindlessly repeating what the millionare talk-jock says.

Here, we're put under the impression that y'all languish for years w/illness waiting to get procedures from quackish doctors.

Complete and utter bullshit perpetuated by the right wing establishment. Cammie - Do you guys languish for years waiting for basic procedures from medical quacks?

Because of course, we have the best health care in the world. I can see why our politicians say that. They have great plans that WE pay for.

Absolutely. We do have high quality, yet exceedingly expensive care here. However, we do have more than our share of quacks, and medical mistakes are just as frequent here, if not more so, than the "America #1" crowd would want us to believe. We as Americans have a difficult time believing any other country could possibly do anything as good as we think we can, and gawd knows no other country could possibly do anythng better.

Cuz of course, it's good to be King/Queen. Or at least have $650/mo for a $5k deductible. Interesting that in the greatest country in the world I had to make a choice between putting food on the table & keeping the lights on in the roof over our head or health care for three.

Even with employer funded health insurance, the cash outlays are getting higher and higher for every contact with the medical establishment. It is absolutely amazing how the billing departments can itemize so many additional items to bill insurance companies for. The insurance companies in turn have become quite adept at finding ways to deny coverage and increasing co-pays. In the end, the American consumer pays more and more out of pocket for less and less service. We also have to pay for the uninsured through premium increases, as they fill emergency rooms at hospitals for their care. Emergency room care is the most expensive option, and we all pay for it. A universal system like Australia or Germany has is far less expensive and much more efficient than what we have in the United States. Yet we fight to keep our super expensive, inefficient, "best in the world" health care system because we don't want to be like those pinko-commie Australians and Europeans.

So yeah... Tell us please Then again, I can understand if you don't elaborate. Don't want boat-loads of peeps trying to get to your shores for a taste of the good life we're supposed to be enjoying here. :ninja

No worries there. Australia has strict immigtation laws that keeps their population in check, and keeps their skilled workforce updated.

 

[Zorak]

I've always wondered where in the constitution it forbids free health care. And since when the constitution has ever been obeyed anyway.

 

[Panacea]

I've always wondered where in the constitution it forbids free health care. And since when the constitution has ever been obeyed anyway.

Exactly...jeez lol. We must do things exactly how this group of dead men wanted it and to suggest otherwise is anti-American! (Though we don't know exactly what they thought about certain things, we are going to guess!)

 

[MoonOwl]

I called Cammie MsSwami cuz she said she sees all:ninja:cool


Perhaps one day both sides of the aisle (We-wise, not politician-wise) will realize both sides have sold them out?

Then and only then will any change be possible? Even then I'm not sure the entrenched status quo in power will be voted out when you have technology that can erase votes then eat itself leaving no trace of being there. (Watch "Hacking Democracy" ) Perhaps if we had at least 70% voter-turnout? These 'bugs' can only change things about 10% if I remember correctly. It's been years since I watched that documentary.

In the meantime we'll continue to be distracted & divided by the put-up distractions & divisions and nothing will change.

hehehehehehehehehehe..... my now-cynical attitude comes from years of shillslaying under our last administration. After years of posting facts (now proven true) only to watch the screams of 'that's not true' over and over again.

Critical thinking skills? Yeah.... One reason I don't venture into politics here too often. All it is is :horse:horse

Those that see it do. Those that don't, won't.

 

[Accountable]

But thousands are denied their homes when the bill comes due.

Do you mean that hospitals put leins on people's homes for not paying their bills?

 

[Johnfromokc]

Do you mean that hospitals put leins on people's homes for not paying their bills?

Yes.

Not only that:

This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60 percent of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills.

Bankruptcies due to medical bills increased by nearly 50 percent in a six-year period, from 46 percent in 2001 to 62 percent in 2007, and most of those who filed for bankruptcy were middle-class, well-educated homeowners, according to a report that will be published in the August issue of The American Journal of Medicine.

They concluded that 62.1 percent of the bankruptcies were medically related because the individuals either had more than $5,000 (or 10 percent of their pretax income) in medical bills, mortgaged their home to pay for medical bills, or lost significant income due to an illness. On average, medically bankrupt families had $17,943 in out-of-pocket expenses, including $26,971 for those who lacked insurance and $17,749 who had insurance at some point.

Overall, three-quarters of the people with a medically-related bankruptcy had health insurance, they say.

Source: http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/...ls-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH

Best health care system in the world, right Accountable?

 

[Accountable]

Yes.

Link some evidence for that, please.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Link some evidence for that, please.

You ignore the rest of my post and ask for links to something you could have easily found yourself?

Are you of the mistaken belief that hospitals won't file a lien on a patients property to collect a debt? Newsflash: Happens every day all across America:

http://www.hospitaldebtjustice.org/dontlien.pdf

Lots of hits, but this was among the first. I know you are too unmotivated to find information that rocks your conservative-libertarian world, so scroll down to page 5 of this PDF and start reading.

 

[Panacea]

I know my mother's social worker has been attempting to prepare her for losing the house.

 

[Johnfromokc]

My parents are in hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt from my mom's cancer, which she is dying from because she had been given too much radiation (now I didn't believe this, she always said they did this to her and I said she was paranoid. I trust doctors here a lot and give them the benefit of the doubt but her own ER nurse has been lamenting that she'd been over treated. That nurse works with the doctor my mom had) I'm sure that happens other places too, just saying. My mom has relatively good insurance, which my dad has been able to get from his job on the condition he doesn't get a raise in pay (hasn't for 10 years).

My parents will never be able to live a normal life again, that debt will hound them forever. It's sickening. How do they think the stress of those bills affect people's health?? Ugh, I just...

This makes me sick and angry as hell. This should NEVER happen in the richest nation on the planet.

Would one of you current American healthcare system defenders step up and justify how this is allowed to happen to so many people? And then explain how this is morally right and why some of you continue to defend this fucked up system and critcize countries with universal heathcare systems?

 

[Tim]

I have always held the position that it should be ILLEGAL to profit from basic health care, and that includes health insurance.

 

[Panacea]

This makes me sick and angry as hell. This should NEVER happen in the richest nation on the planet.

Would one of you current American healthcare system defenders step up and justify how this is allowed to happen to so many people? And then explain how this is morally right and why some of you continue to defend this fucked up system and critcize countries with universal heathcare systems?

And my parents were born here, raised Christian, my dad is a die-hard conservative, they have both worked full time since they were in their late teens, (early 50s now) and this is what happened. They didn't buy a nice house, or nice cars, or go on vacations, or do any of those irresponsible liberal things.

Hopefully they are not the norm, but I know medical bills destroy lives in the US in a way that people in some other counties cannot even fathom, sort of the way we cannot fathom arranged marriages and cannibalism....heh

 

[Johnfromokc]

And my parents were born here, raised Christian, my dad is a die-hard conservative, they have both worked full time since they were in their late teens, (early 50s now) and this is what happened. They didn't buy a nice house, or nice cars, or go on vacations, or do any of those irresponsible liberal things.

Hopefully they are not the norm, but I know medical bills destroy lives in the US in a way that people in some other counties cannot even fathom, sort of the way we cannot fathom arranged marriages and cannibalism....heh

Pan, have you heard of an author by the name of Joe Bageant? I think you would enjoy his work about the American working class. Your story about your folks reminded me of some of the stories Bageant has written.

 

[skyblue]

Australia has it easy, the country is completely surrounded by water. I would imagine keeping people out isn't as difficult.
The illegal immigration problem in the US is deplorable and needs to be fixed.

you should try keeping them out of britain,especially when the untrustworthy french all but send them over

 

[Accountable]

But thousands are denied their homes when the bill comes due.

Sorry Tim, my mistake. I thought when you posted this you meant liens, but liens don't deny people their homes, as I understand it. They "mark" a portion of the equity of a house so that if the house is sold the lien holder is ensured of getting paid. So can you tell me please how people are denied their homes?

 

[Pet Sounds]

You think it's reasonable to stick people with bills worth thousands of dollars for simple procedures when they do not qualify for state assistance but cannot fit outrageous monthly insurance costs into their budget?

And no one is ever denied treatment in this country?

No one ever has to choose between feeding their children and going to the doctor because of the outrageous costs (which I would argue is unreasonable)?

Some idiot didn't just rob a bank for $1 so he could get health care in jail?

I had an elderly man in my store back when I was a manager at a CVS. He was having what we feared was a heart attack, and when I called for emergency services, the driver told me he could not be transported to the hospital without $400 up front. I had to send our makeup lady to take him.

I am not convinced universal health care is necessarily appropriate for the US, it has drawbacks and flaws, maybe too much for this country to adopt, but what we have going on now is absolutely ridiculous. If you're going to site the original vision for the US, I'd argue this isn't quite it either.

No is ever denied emergency/stabilizing treatment. Federal law prohibits such things. Nobody with a brain chooses between a doctor and food. lol at people starving in the US. Anyone in that dire need of food easily gets food stamps. And a lot of them. These services already exist. I know, because I have been on both sides of the issue. You can basically be middle class and still get food stamps. They are handing them out with unemployment benefits these days.

But you also live in the absolute worst and mismanaged state in the nation so some of what you're saying might be true. The government there is like the fucking wild west. lol at detroit. I can buy a two story house there for like $20 and a neighborhood for a few hundred. But still nobody will buy the hellholes. Michigan is the deadest state in the nation. It has no future. Its biggest export is college graduates. Decades of failed liberal policies have destroyed it.

 

[Pet Sounds]

I have always held the position that it should be ILLEGAL to profit from basic health care, and that includes health insurance.

Have fun without any doctors, nurses, techs, medical equipment, drugs, hospitals, etc.. I got an idea, why don't you spend a fortune designing new drugs, going to med school, designing new medical equipment and procedures, and then get nothing for it. Show them how its done. Healthcare will stop running on profit the minute the rest of the world does.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Sorry Tim, my mistake. I thought when you posted this you meant liens, but liens don't deny people their homes, as I understand it. They "mark" a portion of the equity of a house so that if the house is sold the lien holder is ensured of getting paid. So can you tell me please how people are denied their homes?

You've got to be kidding. What a crock of double talking fucking bullshit.

Seriously, are you trying to justify people facing bankruptcy because they can't pay their fucking medical bills?

Don't even try to weasle out of this one.

Let's hear you justify this:

My parents are in hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt from my mom's cancer, which she is dying from because she had been given too much radiation (now I didn't believe this, she always said they did this to her and I said she was paranoid. I trust doctors here a lot and give them the benefit of the doubt but her own ER nurse has been lamenting that she'd been over treated. That nurse works with the doctor my mom had) I'm sure that happens other places too, just saying. My mom has relatively good insurance, which my dad has been able to get from his job on the condition he doesn't get a raise in pay (hasn't for 10 years).

My parents will never be able to live a normal life again, that debt will hound them forever. It's sickening. How do they think the stress of those bills affect people's health?? Ugh, I just...

Well, I'm waiting...lets hear it.

 

[Pet Sounds]

I've always wondered where in the constitution it forbids free health care. And since when the constitution has ever been obeyed anyway.

Where does the constitution forbid free women or booze?

And nothing is free. Australian healthcare isn't free, Canadian healthcare isn't free. That's like saying the US military is free (500 billion dollar a year budget) because I don't get a bill in the mail with "stealth bomber" and "Abrams tank" on it.