What is your belief?

[Sam]

The thing is tat why do we have to expect from GOD..... RELIGION is man made not by GOD.....Form of GOD is ONE all over.... RELIGIONS are like different LANGUAGES...tats it......... And I think we shud keep away this RELIGION word from this WEBSITE... we all are equal and good .. this is just a forum and this is just a good topic...no regrets.

 

[lemon]

sam - we are not all equal and good. some of us have good opportunites, others do not have the same such opportunities... and not everyone is good. trust me when i say that. this world is not perfect. like funkyice said - this is the philosophy and debate section - religion and religious ideals are bound to have threads in it.

 

[Sam]

Lemon - I don't think we have any right to decide whether we are bad or not equal ... Religion is a delicate topic and has extra importance then may be a real world or virtual world... and why drag man made issues into Philosophy ..Philosophy is much higher than Religion and I don't think Religion counts in Philosophy.. if yes then elaborate plsss... so that I can prepare myself with your elaboration.

 

[TheOriginalJames]

Dear Original James,

Tats fine I did my job giving u an advice its up to you !!!!!! We can take the horse to the well but can't force to drink water.

Best of Luck Sir!!!!!! You are definitely going to come back.......

Regards

Sam

I had 'advice' shoved down my throat for 18 years with being forced to go to church every sunday or otherwise I'm grounded for the week. It was simply absurd, because it never panned out that way anyway. I wasn't active in anything other than coming home from school, sitting down and munching on food, then (sometimes) doing my homework.

The way you worded it, as to my view on it, was that I either believe or I'm going to burn in hell for an eternity. I don't believe in any of that. I'm going to live my LIFE, and once that's over we'll see what comes in the afterlife... IF there even is an afterlife.

I hate religion, and I hate organized religion with a passion (ironic, I know). Religion which teaches love and forgiveness has caused several wars, millions of deaths, and a lot of suffering throughout the world through the ages.

I can't view past the hypocracy of what I can see and prove happened and accept a "God" into my heart because I've yet to find a religious zealot that can put it into 100% concrete and rebar proof that "He" exists.

Why do bad things happen to good people? Why did God kill off all of Job's family to prove to the Devil that he would still worship him if he didn't have the robust riches and the family? Why did that happen? Why did God feel the need to prove something to the angel he casted down from Heaven?

To prove Job's Character? That makes no sense. The Almighty One? Please.

 

[andcuriouser]

I agree with James somewhat less emphatically.

Religion has failed me, many times, and you can't say it's because I didn't have faith, because at the time, I definitely did. I will just never forgive church and religion and the people around me who made me feel so disgusting for being who I am. That isn't God. I don't know that there is a God. I have no proof of that, and blind faith is not proof.

 

[lemon]

Lemon - I don't think we have any right to decide whether we are bad or not equal ... Religion is a delicate topic and has extra importance then may be a real world or virtual world... and why drag man made issues into Philosophy ..Philosophy is much higher than Religion and I don't think Religion counts in Philosophy.. if yes then elaborate plsss... so that I can prepare myself with your elaboration.

well, prepare yourself.

answer me this question - who says we are all good inside, and that we are all equal?

or is that 'who' a collective entity, comprised of those agreeing to set rules and regulations that define how the masses should act in certain situations, given certain sets of stimuli?

enter philosophy into the equation. philosophy allows a group of people to sit around, and discuss things. it allows them to come to a common ground. it allows them to define an environment to which others must follow, given some reward later on. ( a certain type of philosophy comes to mind - religion ). this group now has the 'power' to rule the masses that chose to follow them.

now, given that, consider this

if such a group existed, what would be the groups first target? death. how to answer the question of what happens after death would lead to multiple groups, -- as you can see, evidenced by the myrid numbers of religious groups and organizations -- so some ground work must be laid out first before the separation of peoples into those myrid number of groups occurs.

enter in the bible -- or whatever 'holy book' you want to allow to enter here, does not matter -- in which the group attempts, and succeeds, to establish superiority of an unknown, undetectable being. to give that entity some supernatural essence, they make it seem we are of this entity -- whether a group or a single personality -- and that we inherit some qualities of this entity. thus, if we are obedient to such entity, we would be rewarded for our actions here in this current plane of existence.

enter in different interpretations of said holy book. different sects argue over small technicalities, unforeseen by the overall group that contrived the holy book in the first place, whether such separations occur immediately, or thousands of years later. now we have a number of holy books, to which even more disagreements occur, generating more different sects of religious ideals.

and you ask why i should not drag man-made complexities into philosophy. we invented it. and religious is not a delicate topic. it is a part of our every day lives. and if i cannot be part of a community to which i am not allowed to discuss the complexities of religious ideals in a philosophical manner, i will not hesitate to leave, for that indicates to me that the others of the community are closed minded, and do not wish to explore further into their own beliefs.

now, i am not saying to stop believing in what you do believe in, because who knows, when you delve into the history of your beliefs, you may become even more convinced of such beliefs, and i would have been beneficial to such persons.

 

[Sam]

Lemon ,

I thought you would come up with some real interesting questions but invain... anyways you want these answers I will give you an EXPLANATION for the same... I am at work as soon as I reach home u will get all your answers

Regards

Sam

 

[Sam]

GOD is not seen by any one because you have not seen GOD ! GOD is not talked with, because you have not talked to HIM. In this world only that thing can be done which you have alrady done. Only that thing can be achieved which you have already achieved. Because you are the highest achiever of this world. No one can compete you ! No one can go ahead of you ! Would you please tell me your good name ? So that I can think to manage a program to let the world know that it should not try to know any thing if this gentle man (youself) does not know it. The world must not try to achieve any thing more than that this gentle man (the questioner) has not achieved so far. This gentle man has become the ultimate demarcation for any achievement for the world. Now all the researches must be stopped, all the explorations must be discontinued. Every scientist must start sleeping for long since nothing can be achieved beyond this gentle man’s achievemnent.

It is a worthless talk. One man cannot climb up the hill, so he presumes that no one in the world can climb up the hill because he failed to climb. This is an idea what is prevailing in you. This is a wrong conception. GOD can be seen and can be talked with.

And by the way who are you / me and all of us here to question the ALMIGHTY that what ever he did with Job's family was right or wrong... every human being has an open account in his previous life which decides his current life, we can't blame man made mistakes on god, What did you loose if you were forced to go to church every sunday ??? anything harmed you ??? why don't you think the other way that you utilized your time with GOD himself ....
Since the Creation is made as a play of GOD, how GOD will remain impersonal ? No doubt, GOD remains impersonal when this Creation was dissolved into HIM. No one else was there. With whom will the GOD want to be personal then ? GOD is impersonal before the Creation and is personal till Creation.
So, HE is like a human being ? Yes ! this is certainly very surprising to us. But we must not forget that GOD can assume any form. When HE assumes a form of man, HE becomes like a human being. For ours sake, HE assumes a form of human being. In whole of HIS Creation, wheresoever and whensoever HE wants to reestablish the Principles of HIS Dharma, HE will have to assume such a form which resembles the form of those people who are residing on that planet where and amongst whom GOD wants to reestablish HIS Principles of Dharma. This is called HIS being as a 'Personal GOD' or Incarnation of GOD.

To achieve something you have to be of that capable, things happened in your life which u believe were bad and GOD did it, then you are absolutely wrong because you always get what you have given, God made only one RELIGION man segregated it for his own convinience.

 

[Sam]

The scene is a classroom in a University near you, as the professor begins to propound his atheistic non-sense to those in his charge:
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The ageing
atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a
moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and
you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? "Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could...
in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't.
[No answer.]
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even
though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can
you answer that one?"
[No answer]
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella."
"Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?" The student falters.
"From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony
fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian.
"Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?
[No answer]
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness and Suffering. All the terrible things - do they exist in this world? "
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them? "
[No answer]
The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!"
The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"
[No answer]
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails.

 

[Sam]

Re: What is your belief? ***continued****

Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an ageing panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?"
The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the
world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"
[No answer]
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?"
Pause.
"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"
[No answer]
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you
use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you seen Jesus? "
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in
fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"
[No answer]
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling.
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where
is your God now?"
[The student doesn't answer]
"Sit down, please."
The Christian sits... Defeated.
Another person in the class raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard!
Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."
A Hare Krishna devotee actually sir, but yes, a believer in God, nontheless.
The devotee looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are
making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The second
devotee continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can go 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 -- You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom as if with a crash.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are
you getting at...?"
"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."

 

[PrincessJettMicheyl]

right. it'd be great if your first post made any sense. it would've been even better if it had been written in complete, thought out sentences...

 

[Sam]

Re: What is your belief? ****continued****

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called
darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you... give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him.
This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your
point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start
with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
The class is all ears.
"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the devotee explains. "That
for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God.
You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and
magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death
as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbour who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this
country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is, now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality.
Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice.
Is there such a thing as evil?" The devotee pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming colour. He is so angry he is
temporarily speechless.
The devotee continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The Bible, the Gita and the Koran - all the Holy books tell us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."
"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is
probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the devotee replies.
"Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me,
professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes,
of course I do", bawlked the professor.
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a
silent, stony stare.

 

[Sam]

Re: What is your belief?***continued***

"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest teaching faith?"
"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion.
Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.
"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's science!"
"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."
"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.
The class is in uproar.
The devotee remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.
The devotee looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has
ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter.
The devotee points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone
here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain,
touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so.
The devotee shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any
sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to
the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE
that the professor has no brain."
Wouldn't the same reasoning apply to your emotions and your will?
"Our philopsophy is that you, the living being are hidden within that body, adorned with many wonderful qualities, and although I cannot observe it with my/our limited senses, or within the limited parameters which you want to place God within.
"If I want to know your mind or better yet the real you (your mind, emotions, will and even you the spirit soul), all I have to do, if you are willing to be known, is be willing to seek to know you and to spend time with you. "You can know that God exists, .... if you are willing ... Are you willing Professor?"
The class is in chaos.
The devotee sits... Because that is what a chair is for.

 

[lemon]

GOD is not seen by any one because you have not seen GOD ! GOD is not talked with, because you have not talked to HIM. In this world only that thing can be done which you have alrady done. Only that thing can be achieved which you have already achieved. Because you are the highest achiever of this world. No one can compete you ! No one can go ahead of you ! Would you please tell me your good name ? So that I can think to manage a program to let the world know that it should not try to know any thing if this gentle man (youself) does not know it. The world must not try to achieve any thing more than that this gentle man (the questioner) has not achieved so far. This gentle man has become the ultimate demarcation for any achievement for the world. Now all the researches must be stopped, all the explorations must be discontinued. Every scientist must start sleeping for long since nothing can be achieved beyond this gentle man’s achievemnent.

It is a worthless talk. One man cannot climb up the hill, so he presumes that no one in the world can climb up the hill because he failed to climb. This is an idea what is prevailing in you. This is a wrong conception. GOD can be seen and can be talked with.

And by the way who are you / me and all of us here to question the ALMIGHTY that what ever he did with Job's family was right or wrong... every human being has an open account in his previous life which decides his current life, we can't blame man made mistakes on god, What did you loose if you were forced to go to church every sunday ??? anything harmed you ??? why don't you think the other way that you utilized your time with GOD himself ....
Since the Creation is made as a play of GOD, how GOD will remain impersonal ? No doubt, GOD remains impersonal when this Creation was dissolved into HIM. No one else was there. With whom will the GOD want to be personal then ? GOD is impersonal before the Creation and is personal till Creation.
So, HE is like a human being ? Yes ! this is certainly very surprising to us. But we must not forget that GOD can assume any form. When HE assumes a form of man, HE becomes like a human being. For ours sake, HE assumes a form of human being. In whole of HIS Creation, wheresoever and whensoever HE wants to reestablish the Principles of HIS Dharma, HE will have to assume such a form which resembles the form of those people who are residing on that planet where and amongst whom GOD wants to reestablish HIS Principles of Dharma. This is called HIS being as a 'Personal GOD' or Incarnation of GOD.

To achieve something you have to be of that capable, things happened in your life which u believe were bad and GOD did it, then you are absolutely wrong because you always get what you have given, God made only one RELIGION man segregated it for his own convinience.

first off - make some damn sense. then you might be able to converse with dollars later on.

secondly, there is no need to yell out individual words, by capitalizing every letter in that word.

thirdly, you automatically assume that since i have not personally experienced such things, they cannot exist.

some things i see in your posts in this section:

-you blindly believe something. something that has not proven its existence in any way detectable by man. looking good here.
-you blatantly verbally attack others who do not believe such things, or do not get the concept that you have to believe it first to be true. great fucking job sam.

so is it safe to conclude those that believe in the same thing act like you?

damn, it does not look like your beliefs serve you well. from my experience of when i did believe in such nonsense ( what? gasp - lemon was a believer? no fucking way! ), it is a dead-end belief. it is the classical obey-me-i-give-you-reward belief. you know, i am getting tired of such things. these belief structures preach tolerance and peace, but where to they get you? war. plain and simple, deadly and destructive war. sounds like your beliefs are working, working real well.

by the way - if it seems like i am attacking you, congratulations, i am. to others reading, i am not intentionally attacking you.

 

[lemon]

also - regarding the posts about the professor and the two students, specifically about the professor's brain - the second student, in his attempts to prove, according to the rules of science, that the professor's brain does not exist, and in fact declares it to be non-existant, uses the 'how do thoughts work?' question, automatically assuming that humans have a brain. thus, the whole argument of the second student is now completely void. remember that for next time when you try to push more propoganda. thanks.

 

[PrincessJettMicheyl]

Lemon, I think I lurve you. lol

 

[lemon]

not even scratching the surface with this one.

 

[andcuriouser]

Re: What is your belief?***continued***

"The devotee looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter.
The devotee points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so. The devotee shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain."

What if he had a brain tumor, and he had brain surgery? Then someone would have plausibly seen his brain.

 

[TheOriginalJames]

GOD is not seen by any one because you have not seen GOD ! GOD is not talked with, because you have not talked to HIM.

Damn, I really, really fucking hate it when people assume as to what I'VE DONE. I guess all those years of church camp when I truley believed didn't mean shit. I've since grown up and stopped believing in fantasies and fables.

That entire line there is just one giant line of bullshit. You will NEVER convince me there is a God with the philosophical runaround kind of crap you just spout there.

 

[Akandoumi]

I shall recite my belief:

I believe in one god
Father the Almighty
Maker of Heaven and earth
of all that is seen and unseen

and shame on me but I forgot the rest.