Trayvon Martin Video Shows No Blood or Bruises on George Zimmerman

[retro]

Whats the charge John?
We need a formal complaint before we can have a trial
Write us up a mock complaint with what is needed to try him in the court of law

They could have held him as a material witness to a possible murder. But they let him go free instead. They cojldve charges him with manslaughter since the stand your ground story isn't definitive. There were a number of things that *could* have been done without letting him go.

 

[Dana]

Gotta love the internet.

 

[Dana]

Hehe .. I had to post that! The new Law and Order Armchair Detective Squad!

"In the Criminal Justice System ... the people are represented by three different factors ... the Police who investigate crime, the District Attorney's who prosecute the offenders ... and the armchair detectives who tell how the shit really went down. These are their stories ...."

GONG GONG

:24: Best post in this whole thread.

 

[All Else Failed]

But we both KNOW Zimmerman caused the death of Trayvon Martin and should be arrested and tried before a jury of his peers.

no you don't

 

[retro]

no you don't

Did Zimmerman shoot and kill him? Yes he did. Therefore he was was directly responsible for ending his life...whether it was justified or not. Once again, you prove your very tenuous grasp on simple logic

 

[The Man]

They could have held him as a material witness to a possible murder. But they let him go free instead. They cojldve charges him with manslaughter since the stand your ground story isn't definitive. There were a number of things that *could* have been done without letting him go.

They could have held him as a material witness to a possible murder.

Why?

He told them he shot the guy...and cooperated with police for hours..

But they let him go free instead.

See above

They cojldve charges him with manslaughter since the stand your ground story isn't definitive.

And could have charged him with not paying last years taxes as well.
How did he commit manslaughter?
Manslaughter is basically and accident .....shooting the guy was no accident.

There were a number of things that *could* have been done without letting him go

Thats not how it works...you have to charge him or let him go...they are not allowed to "a number of things" to illegally detain someone

 

[All Else Failed]

Did Zimmerman shoot and kill him? Yes he did. Therefore he was was directly responsible for ending his life...whether it was justified or not. Once again, you prove your very tenuous grasp on simple logic

The shooting and death are RESULTS. Not a cause. Trayvon could have caused his own death by attacking Zimmerman.


Once again, you prove your misunderstanding of words.

 

[retro]

The shooting and death are RESULTS. Not a cause. Trayvon could have caused his own death by attacking Zimmerman.


Once again, you prove your misunderstanding of words.

In this case, "cause" was used as a verb, which is an action. Zimmerman pulling the trigger caused the death of Martin. Word usage and part of speech are both very important lessons to learn my young padawan. You would be partially correct if it was used as a noun, but it wasn't.

That all being said, had Zimmerman not followed Martin to begin with, there would be no death for us to discuss. So ultimately, Zimmerman's action brought about the death of Trayvon Martin, no matter what the other circumstances were. That is cause and effect. Zimmerman's actions caused Martin's death, because he followed him after he was told it was unnecessary by the 911 dispatcher.

 

[All Else Failed]

That all being said, had Zimmerman not followed Martin to begin with, there would be no death for us to discuss.

Again, we are not sure if Zimmerman followed him the whole time. It is possible that Zimmerman's story of Trayvon coming back and confronting him when he was going back to his vehicle is true, which could be the real reason for Trayvon's death.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Yet another strike against Zimmerman:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...-george-zimmerman-911-20120331,0,250481.story

Trayvon Martin shooting: It's not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say

Trayvon Martin's family says unarmed teen begged for his life. Experts say it's not George Zimmerman's voice.

As the Trayvon Martin controversy splinters into a debate about self-defense, a central question remains: Who was heard crying for help on a 911 call in the moments before the teen was shot?

A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.

His result: It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.

Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman. Another expert contacted by the Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion.

Zimmerman claims self-defense in the shooting and told police he was the one screaming for help. But these experts say the evidence tells a different story.

'Scientific certainty'

On a rainy night in late February, a woman called 911 to report someone crying out for help in her gated Sanford community, Retreat at Twin Lakes.

Though several of her neighbors eventually called authorities, she phoned early enough for dispatchers to hear the panicked cries and the gunshot that took Trayvon Martin's life.

George Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, shot Trayvon, anunarmed17-year-old, during a one-on-one confrontation Feb. 26.

Before the shot, one of them can be heard screaming for help.

Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.

"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

Forensic voice identification is not a new or novel concept; in fact, a recent U.S. Department of Justice committee report notes that federal interest in the technology "has a history of nearly 70 years."

In the post 9-11 world, Owen says, voice identification is "the main biometric tool" used to track international criminals, as well as terrorists.

"These people don't leave fingerprints, but they do still need to talk to one another," he says.

'The home run'

Though the term "biometric analysis" may sound futuristic, it basically just means using personal characteristics for identification. A fingerprint scanner is an example of a biometric device.

Much as the ridges of a human hand produce a fingerprint, each human voice has unique, distinguishable traits, Owen says. "They're all particular to the individual."

Another benefit of modern biometric analysis, Owen said, is it doesn't require an "in context" comparison. In other words, Owen didn't need a sample of Zimmerman screaming in order to compare his voice to the call.

The technology Owen used to analyze the Zimmerman tape has a wide range of applications, including national security and international policing, he said. A recently as January, Owen used the same technology to identify accused murderer Sheila Davalloo in a 911 call made almost a decade ago.

Owen testified that it was Davalloo, accused of stabbing another woman nine times in a condo in Shippan, Conn., who reported the killing to police from a pay phone in November 2002.

Davalloo was convicted, according to news reports.

Owen says the audio from Zimmerman's call is much better quality than the 911 call in the Davalloo case. Voice identification experts judge the quality based on a signal-to-noise ratio; in other words, comparing the usable audio in a clip to the environmental noises that make a match difficult.

And the call on which the screams are heard is better quality than is necessary, Owen says.

"In our world, that's the home run," he says.

Not all experts rely on biometrics. Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, is not a believer in the technology's use in courtroom settings.

He relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion.

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

Zimmerman's call to authorities minutes before the shooting provides a good standard for comparison, Primeau says, because it captures his voice both at rest and in an agitated state.

'CSI' effect

Only one person aliveknows exactly what transpired in the moments immediately before Trayvon was fatally shot: Zimmerman, who has claimed he fired in self-defense.

Zimmerman told policehe was walking back to his SUV aftera brief foot pursuit of Martin, and the teen confronted and attacked him, punching him and slamming his head into the pavement.

Arriving police said Zimmerman was bloodied. One officer wrote in a police report that he overheard Zimmerman telling a paramedic, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

Angela Corey, the special prosecutor assigned to the case, has yet to decide whether to charge Zimmerman, send the case to a grand jury or decide against charging.

If Zimmerman's self-defense claim is tested at trial, legal experts say a forensic identification of the voice in the 911 audio could be key evidence, either in Zimmerman's favor or to his detriment.

Still, Maine-based audio enhancement expert Arlo West says that today's juries sometimes seem reluctant to accept evidence that's any less conclusive than what they're used to seeing on television.

"I call it the 'CSI' effect," he says, referring to "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation," the popular — if not always realistic — forensics-based TV drama. "You get in front of a jury, and they expect a miracle."

 

[The Man]

In this case, "cause" was used as a verb, which is an action. Zimmerman pulling the trigger caused the death of Martin. Word usage and part of speech are both very important lessons to learn my young padawan. You would be partially correct if it was used as a noun, but it wasn't.

That all being said, had Zimmerman not followed Martin to begin with, there would be no death for us to discuss. So ultimately, Zimmerman's action brought about the death of Trayvon Martin, no matter what the other circumstances were. That is cause and effect. Zimmerman's actions caused Martin's death, because he followed him after he was told it was unnecessary by the 911 dispatcher.

So if I go to the store and am attacked on my way back to the car ...because the GF said "you dont need to do that" as we have enough cigarettes to last the night...its my fault?

 

[The Man]

That all being said, had Zimmerman not followed Martin to begin with, there would be no death for us to discuss..

He went to see where he went..how is that a crime?

 

[retro]

So if I go to the store and am attacked on my way back to the car ...because the GF said "you dont need to do that" as we have enough cigarettes to last the night...its my fault?

There's a huge difference between your girlfriend telling you something and a representative of a law enforcement agency. C'mon dude, I thought you were smarter than that.

 

[retro]

Again, we are not sure if Zimmerman followed him the whole time. It is possible that Zimmerman's story of Trayvon coming back and confronting him when he was going back to his vehicle is true, which could be the real reason for Trayvon's death.

It doesn't matter... he continued to follow him after a law enforcement representative told him that they didn't need him to. His actions can be directly linked to the end result.

 

[The Man]

There's a huge difference between your girlfriend telling you something and a representative of a law enforcement agency. C'mon dude, I thought you were smarter than that.

It was dispatch that said "we dont need you to do that"..its not a police order

 

[The Man]

It doesn't matter... he continued to follow him after a law enforcement representative told him that they didn't need him to. His actions can be directly linked to the end result.

They tell you that for your own safety...you still have the liberty to see where the one that ran off went

 

[retro]

It was dispatch that said "we dont need you do to that"..its not a police order

A representative of a law enforcement agency... their requests and/or orders have the weight of the law enforcement agency behind them. If you can't see the difference between that and a request from your girlfriend, you don't have any place in this discussion... because you're either purposefully trying to act like an idiot, or there's something wrong with your reasoning skills.

 

[retro]

They tell you that for your own safety...you still have the liberty so see where the one that ran off went

Liberty yes. But by doing so, he's taking responsibility for his actions and whatever repercussions there may be.

 

[The Man]

A representative of a law enforcement agency... their requests and/or orders have the weight of the law enforcement agency behind them. If you can't see the difference between that and a request from your girlfriend, you don't have any place in this discussion... because you're either purposefully trying to act like an idiot, or there's something wrong with your reasoning skills.

Where was he ordered by police to not follow Martin

 

[retro]

Where was he ordered by police to not follow Martin

You're severely lacking in reading comprehension skills, aren't you? He was told be a representative of the police department that they did not need him to follow Martin. Honestly, why is that such a difficult concept for you to understand?