Pampered Prisoners

[dt3]

So you think how a child is raised has very little sway on how violent they will be? Come on man.

Not what I said. I said pretty much everybody knows murder is wrong.

 

[All Else Failed]

So every genocide that has ever taken place was A.O.K by your logic. I mean, a lot of people agreed and they thought they deserved it!

How many people agreed with Hitler, Milosevic, and Saddam? Agreed with, not were forced into helping.[/quote]

Uh, actually with the social/racial and political climate in Germany at the time pretty much everyone agreed with Hitler, not all, but the majority.

 

[All Else Failed]

Not what I said. I said pretty much everybody knows murder is wrong.

What of mentally disabled people? Mentally unstable people? Basically people that do not have a sense of wrong and right/sociopaths.

 

[dt3]

What of mentally disabled people? Mentally unstable people? Basically people that do not have a sense of wrong and right/sociopaths.

Those cases are why I said there should be exceptions. We shouldn't kill people who don't know why they're being killed.

 

[dt3]

How many people agreed with Hitler, Milosevic, and Saddam? Agreed with, not were forced into helping.

Uh, actually with the social/racial and political climate in Germany at the time pretty much everyone agreed with Hitler, not all, but the majority.[/quote]

Do you think, in retrospect, they would still agree? Or do you think they were brainwashed and led to believe through propaganda?

We don't have to worry about that in our society because of our freedom to debate as you and I are doing right now. I don't think Hitler (or anybody who knows they're wrong) encouraged freedom of expression/ideas.

 

[All Else Failed]

Those cases are why I said there should be exceptions. We shouldn't kill people who don't know why they're being killed.

Yet we do. All the time. Innocent people too.

 

[All Else Failed]

Uh, actually with the social/racial and political climate in Germany at the time pretty much everyone agreed with Hitler, not all, but the majority.

Do you think, in retrospect, they would still agree? Or do you think they were brainwashed and led to believe through propaganda?

We don't have to worry about that in our society because of our freedom to debate as you and I are doing right now. I don't think Hitler (or anybody who knows they're wrong) encouraged freedom of expression/ideas.[/quote]

What is important is that they agreed with him then, when the genocides were occurring. A lot of Germans didn't need to be brainwashed. its a well known fact that Jews in Europe were always looked down upon as inferiors.


Maybe not genocides in this country, but if you don't think the US government forces patriotism down people's throats and spews out propaganda you're fooling yourself.

 

[dt3]

Yet we do. All the time. Innocent people too.

If you're saying the system isn't perfect, then I agree. I've read The Innocent Man by John Grisham (everybody should). But our legal system, I believe, is adapting and trying to make sure these things don't happen. I mean, just look at the appeals process these days.

I don't think people should be killed because they are accused of murder. I believe they should be killed after the entire legal process has been exhausted, and there is no doubt that they were guilty.

 

[All Else Failed]

If you're saying the system isn't perfect, then I agree. I've read The Innocent Man by John Grisham (everybody should). But our legal system, I believe, is adapting and trying to make sure these things don't happen. I mean, just look at the appeals process these days.

I don't think people should be killed because they are accused of murder. I believe they should be killed after the entire legal process has been exhausted, and there is no doubt that they were guilty.

I agree that we try to stop innocents from being killed, but I think it would be culturally expedient to get rid of it as a whole....most of the world has.

I'm just trying to reveal to you the grand hypocrisy of it all. The government tells us we cannot kill, yet it has no scruples about offing someone by vote of jury or sending 18 year olds to foreign countries to die in the desert.

 

[dt3]

Do you think, in retrospect, they would still agree? Or do you think they were brainwashed and led to believe through propaganda?

We don't have to worry about that in our society because of our freedom to debate as you and I are doing right now. I don't think Hitler (or anybody who knows they're wrong) encouraged freedom of expression/ideas.

What is important is that they agreed with him then, when the genocides were occurring. A lot of Germans didn't need to be brainwashed. its a well known fact that Jews in Europe were always looked down upon as inferiors.


Maybe not genocides in this country, but if you don't think the US government forces patriotism down people's throats and spews out propaganda you're fooling yourself.[/quote]

But we also have the right/ability to hear other viewpoints and make intelligent decisions based on both sides of the argument. If the government was as bad as you think, we wouldn't be able to have this debate right now.

 

[All Else Failed]

What is important is that they agreed with him then, when the genocides were occurring. A lot of Germans didn't need to be brainwashed. its a well known fact that Jews in Europe were always looked down upon as inferiors.


Maybe not genocides in this country, but if you don't think the US government forces patriotism down people's throats and spews out propaganda you're fooling yourself.

But we also have the right/ability to hear other viewpoints and make intelligent decisions based on both sides of the argument. If the government was as bad as you think, we wouldn't be able to have this debate right now.[/quote]

Yes, we do have a very limited free speech (which is being reduced) and that is good. The government will allow free speech only to a certain point. Remember, the number one goal of the government is to STAY IN POWER, everything else is secondary.

 

[dt3]

I agree that we try to stop innocents from being killed, but I think it would be culturally expedient to get rid of it as a whole....most of the world has.

I'm just trying to reveal to you the grand hypocrisy of it all. The government tells us we cannot kill, yet it has no scruples about offing someone by vote of jury or sending 18 year olds to foreign countries to die in the desert.

Earlier you said applying the death penalty because a lot of people believe in it is wrong. But here you say abolishing it because a lot of people don't like it is right? I don't follow your logic.

 

[All Else Failed]

Earlier you said applying the death penalty because a lot of people believe in it is wrong. But here you say abolishing it because a lot of people don't like it is right? I don't follow your logic.

its about weighing the outcomes:

Abolishing the death penalty: People don't die

Keeping it: People die because we say so!

 

[dt3]

But we also have the right/ability to hear other viewpoints and make intelligent decisions based on both sides of the argument. If the government was as bad as you think, we wouldn't be able to have this debate right now.

Yes, we do have a very limited free speech (which is being reduced) and that is good. The government will allow free speech only to a certain point. Remember, the number one goal of the government is to STAY IN POWER, everything else is secondary.[/quote]

I've never been censored or thrown in jail for my thoughts and opinions. I don't see any way our freedom of speech is being reduced. I also don't think there's any real threat of our government being kicked out of power anytime soon, and therefore have no reason to limit our freedoms.

This thread is spinning off on all kinds of tangents, maybe we should start our own debate thread?

 

[dt3]

its about weighing the outcomes:

Abolishing the death penalty: People don't die

Keeping it: People die because we say so!

Abolish: People who don't deserve to live, will

Keep it: People who have been tried in a Constitutional legal system and found guilty will be punished for their crimes

 

[All Else Failed]

Yes, we do have a very limited free speech (which is being reduced) and that is good. The government will allow free speech only to a certain point. Remember, the number one goal of the government is to STAY IN POWER, everything else is secondary.

I've never been censored or thrown in jail for my thoughts and opinions. I don't see any way our freedom of speech is being reduced. I also don't think there's any real threat of our government being kicked out of power anytime soon, and therefore have no reason to limit our freedoms.

This thread is spinning off on all kinds of tangents, maybe we should start our own debate thread? [/quote]

Ever read the patriot act? Its scary shit.

 

[All Else Failed]

Abolish: People who don't deserve to live, will

Keep it: People who have been tried in a Constitutional legal system and found guilty will be punished for their crimes

Keep it: You will accomplish nothing but killing someone for killing someone, just because it was your personal opinion that they don't "deserve" to live. Thats an archaic form of justice, no?

 

[dt3]

This thread has already kept me up well past my bedtime, I'll be back tomorrow (even though we obviously aren't going to change each other's minds)

 

[All Else Failed]

All I can say is THINK about the extreme hypocrisy the death penalty represents. That is all.

 

[Peter Parka]

Jesus, some of the crap I've been reading on here! Firstly, yes prison is a punnishment but are you interested in fucking with their heads so they are even more fucked up when they get out or do you want to rehabilitate them so they can get out with some hope of getting a job and a life? If prisoners when they released are fucked up in the head and still have no skills to get a job then don't be suprised when the rob you to make some money!
I don't what your prisons are like or where you get views of a cushy lifesyle but let me give you the real rundown of what it's like over here. You are forced to share a tiny cell with one or two other prisoners, you get no say who they are, they could be some complete wanker or be really dirty and smelly. In your cell you have a tiny, high up on the wall window with bars, sometimes there is no window so you freeze your arse of in the middle of winter. You are forced to wear crappy prison uniform, usually ill fitting and with cigarette holes and other crap in it. Unless you work, you get £2 a week for cigarettes and other luxuory and are forced to spend between 22 and 23 hours a day locked in your cell. If you work it is doing crappy mundane jobs like picking up excrement that some dirty prisoners throw out of their windows or maybe sitting at a desk stuffing things into plastic bags. You get 1 hour exercise which is just walking round some yard. Food is nutricianal but very basic. You now have a tiny telly in your cell but up untill a couple of years ago you didn't. Also up till a few years ago youdidn't have a proper toilet, just a bucket which you got to clean out once a day. During the day yopu used to have to sit in the cell which would smell of shit. If you misbehave in some way, more than likely you will be punished by being locked in a room for 30 days with nothing except a matress, blanket, pillow and toilet.
Now does anyone think that really sounds like an easy life? Is it any wonder that people who go to prison are more likely to re offend seeing the've had that fucking up their mind?
I think too many of you believe what you read in biased media articles and on the telly.