Occupy Oakland Raids

[All Else Failed]

What a load of bullshit. Again, should Martin Luther King Jr. and those who had the guts to stand up for their equal rights have "dispersed"? They were beaten, fire hosed and even murdered. Just because the "authorities" give an order does not make it a lawful (meaning constitutional) order.

Numerous occaisions of Anarchists starting shit at Occupy rallies? I have watched video after video and seen ZERO evidence of what you claim.

Show us the "Anarchist" footage you allege

The disinformation and outright lies people repeat about the Occupy Movement demonstrate the typical intellectual lazyness of much of the populace. They don't research and learn the facts for themselves - it's a lot easier to repeat some other groups propaganda instead.

No actually there are parameters that protests need to follow when police ask them to leave. if the crowd is defiant, then they are telling the cops they are willing to be met with force through their own consent and actions.


there have been reports of anarchists at the OWS rallies and people have seen them at the front of many violent actions.


Why do you think these people are the guardians of morality and are perfect little angels?

Actually, a lot of them are Marxist socialists. if it were me, I would treat them as treasonous individuals.

The anti Occupy people don't care about the truth. They see something framed a certain way on the Drudge Report that they think will somehow support their unresearched position and post it as if it is fact. More intellectual lazyness. Yawn.

Oh please the OWS "movement" can't even answer basic economic questions. They don't even know what the "truth" is to their problem!

 

[Johnfromokc]

No actually there are parameters that protests need to follow when police ask them to leave. if the crowd is defiant, then they are telling the cops they are willing to be met with force through their own consent and actions.

Wrong. Show me in the constitution where it states citizens are only allowed to protest until the police tell them to leave.

there have been reports of anarchists at the OWS rallies and people have seen them at the front of many violent actions.

"Reports"? From where, other than right wing talk media?

Why do you think these people are the guardians of morality and are perfect little angels?

Because the Occupy Movement is a peaceful, non-violent movement.

Actually, a lot of them are Marxist socialists. if it were me, I would treat them as treasonous individuals.

Total fucking bullshit statement and proof that you have no clue what you speak of. Make an effort to learn about it from somewhere other than FOX and other right wing outlets.

You would treat them as treasonous individuals? That's quite the fascist attitude. We have a constitution to protect Americans from people with Nazi attitudes like that.

Oh please the OWS "movement" can't even answer basic economic questions. They don't even know what the "truth" is to their problem!

Even more evidence of where you obtain your information. They know a hell of a lot more than you have demonstrated in your posts thus far.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Let me try to get this straight. I am not against the concept nor the ideals of the movement.

To be for the movement, you know little about it. Methinks this satement is just so much bullshit.

I am however against those who are anarchists and those are the people that were the genesis of this movement.

Show us the anarchists. This is just more bullshit, same as the statement that you are for the movement. You are just here to stir up shit.

There is a lot of evidence that this movement is not as it is portrayed as.

So where is the evidence? All I see is just more bullshit and no substance in your claims.

The majority of those protesting are probably clueless about what is behind this. They have great intentions but are being led like sheep. IMO

They know exactly why they are protesting, and they know eaxctly who would love to control the movement - but the movement has no official leadership - it is a consensus movement. You OTOH, are clueless about the movement and keep parroting bullshit about "anarchists", "socialists" and other conservobot buzzwords. The only sheep I see are those that don't know jack shit about the movement, but follow the rhetoric of the anti-OWS crowd while doing no real research themselves.

I could say also that every negative about OWS was used about the Tea Party. And much of it justified.

Lets get specific here. The TP was co-opted straight out of the box by Dick Armey, the Koch brothers and the RNC and promptly re-elected the same old Republicans.

So how is OWS similar?

I am just trying to present a different perspective.

Fuck no you are not. Your "different perspective" conisits of the same old shit over and over - "anarchists", "socialists" communists" et al. Total fucking bullshit that is so transparent as to be laughable.

 

[All Else Failed]

Wrong. Show me in the constitution where it states citizens are only allowed to protest until the police tell them to leave.

Show me where in the constitution that it guarantees people can do and say anything they want whenever they want

Pro-tip: It will not be found in the 1st amendment

"Reports"? From where, other than right wing talk media?

Actually I saw it on MSNBC but ok

Because the Occupy Movement is a peaceful, non-violent movement.

Can you even prove this? I'm sure all of the clashes with the police didn't involve any of the OWS at all and they shit rainbows and precious gem stones.

Total fucking bullshit statement and proof that you have no clue what you speak of. Make an effort to learn about it from somewhere other than FOX and other right wing outlets.

Excuse me but it seems like you haven't seen any of the photographs from the rally that have "smash capitalism" and the like on them.

You would treat them as treasonous individuals? That's quite the fascist attitude. We have a constitution to protect Americans from people with Nazi attitudes like that.

What if I am a fascist.


also, Fascism =/= Nazism.

 

[retro]

What if I am a fascist.


also, Fascism =/= Nazism.

Nazism is a form of fascism. The main difference is the racism that Nazism incorporated into their fascist system.

On another note, interestingly enough... does anyone know what the original Nazi movement had as ideals? Anti-capitalism and anti-big business.

 

[CityGirl]

Excuse me but it seems like you haven't seen any of the photographs from the rally that have "smash capitalism" and the like on them.

I've seen some anti capitalism and socialist party signs, mixed up with the signs saying End the Fed, We are the 99%, People before profits, Wall Street and Corporations have corrupted politics, I can't afford a lobbyist I am the 99%, etc. Since OWS is a movement that seeks to engage 99% of the population, I fully expect to see a smorgasboard of slogans across all spectrums. Just because people of a certain ideology are participating doesn't mean their views represent the movement. I support free markets, I've voted Republican for national elections all my life (to my chagrin in some cases) I'm conservative and I support the OWS movement. I know there are many many more just like me. People who recognize the political system has been corrupted by money which has enabled the corruption of the banks and the centers of finance. We are moving beyond partisan politics to strike the root of the problem.


(Click images to enlarge)

 

[All Else Failed]

Nazism is a form of fascism. The main difference is the racism that Nazism incorporated into their fascist system.

On another note, interestingly enough... does anyone know what the original Nazi movement had as ideals? Anti-capitalism and anti-big business.

Yes I know that Nazism is a form of fascism but Fascism does not equal Nazism only. You don't have to be a Nazi to be a fascist.


And are you joking Nazism was NOT against big business they encouraged mass industry.

 

[retro]

Yes I know that Nazism is a form of fascism but Fascism does not equal Nazism only. You don't have to be a Nazi to be a fascist.

No, but the sentiments that you are expressing reek of Nazism.

And are you joking Nazism was NOT against big business they encouraged mass industry.

I suggest that you go do some research on the Nazi movement before you make uninformed comments like that. They were against big business due to the economic advantage it gave the owners of said businesses. They also associated big business with Jewish financial interests. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself before you open your mouth any further.

 

[Tangerine]

So much for concept of peaceful protesters who are being trod upon by the police...

 

[Alien Allen]

An interesting list of groups and individuals in support of OWS

http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2011/10/31/the-99-official-list-of-ows/

 

[Tim]

PJ Media? Aren't they the ones that fully and whole heartily supported the tea party?

"Inspired by the actions of our Founding Fathers, members of the Tea Party movement have circumvented the Mainstream Media and have taken their grievances directly to the people. As we approach the upcoming election, the Tea Party's influence is yet unknown, but by tracking and reporting nationwide attitudes toward the movement, we hope to better calculate the strength and power of this truly American movement."

It's funny how they now attack the Occupy movement...
Whatever happened to the "we hope to better calculate the strength and power of this truly American movement." sediment?

I'm still looking for where it says, "We are the 99% (unless you are associated with an undesirable group)"

 

[Alien Allen]

no idea about PJ media

I just found their list interesting.

It should be noted they left out unions

 

[Johnfromokc]

 

[All Else Failed]

No, but the sentiments that you are expressing reek of Nazism.

Okay name me anything I've said that is specific to Nazism

You're sounding foolish.

I suggest that you go do some research on the Nazi movement before you make uninformed comments like that. They were against big business due to the economic advantage it gave the owners of said businesses. They also associated big business with Jewish financial interests. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself before you open your mouth any further.

I did most of my undergraduate work in European history I know what I'm talking about. Nazism encouraged big business as long as it served the Reich. Krupp, Diamler-Benz, BMW, Mauser, Erma Werke Walther, Luger, Messerschmitt, Focke-Wulf, Junkers, Porsche etc etc etc were all MASSIVE businesses that the Nazis all loved and made sure succeeded. In fact, most historians saw this as one of Nazism's biggest hypocrisies in that the original National Socialist Worker's Party message was "getting back to the land" while they held up mass industries later on as one of their socio-economic goals. The assured big business's future by making sure it served them and have the owners never get too much power. There is a reason why Germany was one of the greatest industrial manufacturing powers on the face of the planet until Russia and the US got going later in the war.

But, nahhhh they were against big business, right? I'm sure all of those highways, tanks, weapons, munitions, supplies, oil, gasoline, coal, steel, airplanes, vehicles, buildings, submarines, boats, equipments and anything else that required mass industry and business were all fantasies the allies dreamed up.


Go read a book , neophyte.

 

[retro]

I've read plenty about European history, as it is one of my favorite subjects to study. You've completely ignored a very important part of what I said. Here, I'll quote it for you and bold the important part so that you'll understand.

On another note, interestingly enough... does anyone know what the original Nazi movement had as ideals? Anti-capitalism and anti-big business

There, I even increased the size for you. They equated big business to Jewish influence over their economy and the reason for the economic woes they were experiencing. You have to look at the economic conditions of pre-Nazi Germany. The great depression had largely decimated the German economy. Unemployment was pushing 20% if memory serves (I don't feel like going to Wikipedia to look it up), and the small businesses took issue with the big businesses and blamed them as the reason their businesses were failing and the high unemployment they were experiencing. Nazi antisemitism fed straight into that by blaming the Jewish owners of said businesses for all of their woes. If you want to know why they made sure the owners never had too much power, you need only to look at the roots of their own movement for the reason why.

So I suggest that you need to go and read a book.

As far as what you've said that's specific to Nazism goes... you have gone after elements of the OWS movement that don't actually have anything to do with the stated goals of the movement, and used that to demonize the movement as a whole. Your obsession with the anarchists that are at these rallies is proof. Much like the Nazi party blamed the Jews for all of their problems and demonized them, you're going after one single element of the OWS movement and using it as a reason why the entire movement is bad. The Nazi party demonized the Jews because of the perceived actions of those of Jewish descent that owned businesses and were unfairly blamed for the economic woes of 1930s Germany. While the Nazis used racism, you're using political beliefs as your weapon of choice. You've blamed anarchists for things, and yet you've failed to provide a single shred of proof to back those claims up. So, while you are not a Nazi, some of the views that you are expressing are similar... hence the Nazi comparison seems to be a pretty valid one.

 

[All Else Failed]

Okay that is nice but I already confirmed the fact that the original national Socialist Workers Party was against capitalism and big business. It doesn't really matter though, since the end result, the last manifestation and the most powerful form of Nazism absolutely loved mass industry and big business. They saw Judiasm in big business and banking as a bad thing, not big business and banking as bad things in themselves. That was the whole point of shutting down Jewish businesses and having them taken over by ethnic Germans. Jewish wealth was seized for Germany's march forward to a greater manufacturing output to arm for war, since war and Lebensraum were some of the utmost top priorities for the Nazi regime. They blamed JEWISH big business and banking for the unemployment, not big business in general.


Once again, you miss the point of seeing the root of the Nazis' problems originally with big business. The original Nazi movement was skeptical of capitalism, business and banking because they saw them as Jewish things. Once they purged the Jewish influence in all forms, they were taken over by ethnic Germans and urged forward. It does not matter what the original handful of Nazis thought in that beer hall in Munich. What matters is the brand of Nazism that manifested itself in Adolf Hitler when he rose to power.

As far as what you've said that's specific to Nazism goes... you have gone after elements of the OWS movement that don't actually have anything to do with the stated goals of the movement, and used that to demonize the movement as a whole. Your obsession with the anarchists that are at these rallies is proof. Much like the Nazi party blamed the Jews for all of their problems and demonized them, you're going after one single element of the OWS movement and using it as a reason why the entire movement is bad. The Nazi party demonized the Jews because of the perceived actions of those of Jewish descent that owned businesses and were unfairly blamed for the economic woes of 1930s Germany. While the Nazis used racism, you're using political beliefs as your weapon of choice. You've blamed anarchists for things, and yet you've failed to provide a single shred of proof to back those claims up. So, while you are not a Nazi, some of the views that you are expressing are similar... hence the Nazi comparison seems to be a pretty valid one.

Oh, I don't blame just one group or ideology like the Germans did with the Jews. There are multiple reasons why I heartily dislike the OWS movement. Just in case you're wondering, I don't dislike Jews at all. In fact I support Israel's fight for a homeland.

Your comparison is totally laughable. Communists did almost everything the Nazis did in varying degrees, am I somehow a Communist because of that?

 

[retro]

Okay that is nice but I already confirmed the fact that the original national Socialist Workers Party was against capitalism and big business. It doesn't really matter though, since the end result, the last manifestation and the most powerful form of Nazism absolutely loved mass industry and big business. They saw Judiasm in big business and banking as a bad thing, not big business and banking as bad things in themselves. That was the whole point of shutting down Jewish businesses and having them taken over by ethnic Germans. Jewish wealth was seized for Germany's march forward to a greater manufacturing output to arm for war, since war and Lebensraum were some of the utmost top priorities for the Nazi regime. They blamed JEWISH big business and banking for the unemployment, not big business in general.

Now you're not making any sense. You tell me that I'm wrong about the original Nazi movement being opposed to big business, and now you say that my assertion was correct. What the end result was is completely irrelevant given the context of what I said. I was referring only to the original movement, not what it eventually became. The Germans blamed big business for the economic issues they were experiencing, and the Nazis directed that frustration towards the Jews themselves. they blamed Jewish big business because that's what the Nazis wanted, but the original issue was with big business as a whole.

Once again, you miss the point of seeing the root of the Nazis' problems originally with big business. The original Nazi movement was skeptical of capitalism, business and banking because they saw them as Jewish things. Once they purged the Jewish influence in all forms, they were taken over by ethnic Germans and urged forward. It does not matter what the original handful of Nazis thought in that beer hall in Munich. What matters is the brand of Nazism that manifested itself in Adolf Hitler when he rose to power.

Once again, you've complete missed the point that I am referring to the orignal Nazi movement, and not what it became. If you paid any attention to what I actually said, then it would be patently obvious. You're being deliberately obtuse in a feeble attempt to avoid admitting that you're wrong.

Oh, I don't blame just one group or ideology like the Germans did with the Jews. There are multiple reasons why I heartily dislike the OWS movement. Just in case you're wondering, I don't dislike Jews at all. In fact I support Israel's fight for a homeland.

Your comparison is totally laughable. Communists did almost everything the Nazis did in varying degrees, am I somehow a Communist because of that?

I never stated that you had an issue with those of Jewish descent, you inserted that into your rebuttal without prompting. Once again, a feeble attempt at distraction... sorry, not going to work. There may be plenty of reasons why you dislike the OWS movement, but you chose to focus in on one particular group that you take issue with; just like the Nazis did with Jews. Therefore, the views you were expressing can be directly correlated with Nazism, and as such, John's initial comment is indeed a valid one.

At least try to get your facts in order before you deem yourself ready to play with the big boys.

 

[Alien Allen]

anarchy may not be what the average protester is about but it sure as hell is what Adbusters is about and they IMO were the driving force behind OWS.

There seems to be a lot of sheep that have fallen in line when you look at many of the signs displayed.

 

[All Else Failed]

Now you're not making any sense. You tell me that I'm wrong about the original Nazi movement being opposed to big business, and now you say that my assertion was correct. What the end result was is completely irrelevant given the context of what I said. I was referring only to the original movement, not what it eventually became. The Germans blamed big business for the economic issues they were experiencing, and the Nazis directed that frustration towards the Jews themselves. they blamed Jewish big business because that's what the Nazis wanted, but the original issue was with big business as a whole.

No, you're not seeing what is important to this. The important thing is what the end result of Nazism was. The end result was favor for mass industry and business. Not against. If the Nazis when Adolf Hitler was in power were against big business they did a incredibly bad job at displaying that. There is no arguing this fact at all.

The Germans blamed Jewish influence and Communists/Marxists for their problems. Note Adolf Hitler's many rants against this in Mein Kampf (You have read it, haven't you?). The qualm was not with the idea or process of big business or industry, but the apparent Jewish and leftist influence and control over them.

Once again, you've complete missed the point that I am referring to the orignal Nazi movement, and not what it became. If you paid any attention to what I actually said, then it would be patently obvious. You're being deliberately obtuse in a feeble attempt to avoid admitting that you're wrong.

I know perfectly well that you're referring to the original Nazi movement but I'm trying to tell you that is doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what AH thought and what his polices were for the Nazi party entering into the mid to late 1930s and throughout the early 40s. That was the supreme incarnation of Nazi power and influence. What a few people thought in that beer hall in the early 30s is completely irrelevant to what the official nazi party, lead by Adolf Hitler, enacted and believed. They believed in mass industry and big business. Period.

You're not seeing this fact, and you're completely ignoring whatever else I say.

I never stated that you had an issue with those of Jewish descent, you inserted that into your rebuttal without prompting. Once again, a feeble attempt at distraction... sorry, not going to work. There may be plenty of reasons why you dislike the OWS movement, but you chose to focus in on one particular group that you take issue with;

At least try to get your facts in order before you deem yourself ready to play with the big boys.

Distraction? No. I'm simply doing some preemptive action simply because I can easily see some of you accusing me of such a thing. I mean fuck, you're already calling me a Nazi and you seem to have an incredibly sophomoric understanding of the Nazi movement as it is.

just like the Nazis did with Jews. Therefore, the views you were expressing can be directly correlated with Nazism, and as such, John's initial comment is indeed a valid one.

This is some of the worst logic I have ever seen.

Hey, republicans blame democrats for most of the nations problems, therefore, they're Nazis and subscribe to national socialism. HURR DURRRRR

At least try to get your facts in order before you deem yourself ready to play with the big boys.

Big boys huh? I thought I was talking to a high school freshman.

 

[retro]

No, you're not seeing what is important to this. The important thing is what the end result of Nazism was. The end result was favor for mass industry and business. Not against. If the Nazis when Adolf Hitler was in power were against big business they did a incredibly bad job at displaying that. There is no arguing this fact at all.

The Germans blamed Jewish influence and Communists/Marxists for their problems. Note Adolf Hitler's many rants against this in Mein Kampf (You have read it, haven't you?). The qualm was not with the idea or process of big business or industry, but the apparent Jewish and leftist influence and control over them.

Now, I want you to pay very close attention to what I'm about to say. My statement was ONLY referring to the beginnings of the Nazi movement. Nothing more and nothing less. I posted it as a side note that had absolutely nothing to do with anything else. I posted it because I found it interesting that the original Nazi movement had goals that were similar to some of the socialist agenda that you see today. Mainly the anti-big business mantra. Oh, and yes I have read Mein Kampf.

I know perfectly well that you're referring to the original Nazi movement but I'm trying to tell you that is doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what AH thought and what his polices were for the Nazi party entering into the mid to late 1930s and throughout the early 40s.

You're not seeing this fact, and you're completely ignoring whatever else I say.

Given the context and scope of what I said, it does matter. In fact, it's the only thing that matters. That's what you're either failing to understand or choosing to purposefully ignore.

Distraction? No. I'm simply doing some preemptive action simply because I can easily see some of you accusing me of such a thing. I mean fuck, you're already calling me a Nazi and you seem to have an incredibly sophomoric understanding of the Nazi movement as it is.

Now you're misrepresenting what I said. I'm not calling you a Nazi, I'm merely stating that based on the things that you have said in this thread, John's assertion that you were expressing views that were in line with those of the Nazi party was a completely legitimate comment to make. You're the one that decided that equated to me calling you a Nazi. Do yourself a giant favor and actually pay attention to what people say, and not your own interpretation of it. As far as you characterizing my understanding of the Nazi movement/party as sophomoric, nice try. I wrote a research in my college modern history class on Nazism; which was actually going to be the basis of my thesis when I originally planned on majoring in History.

This is some of the worst logic I have ever seen.

Hey, republicans blame democrats for most of the nations problems, therefore, they're Nazis and subscribe to national socialism. HURR DURRRRR

If you equate the two comparisons, then there's no point in even trying to reason with you. Nazis chose one group of people that they didn't like and demonized them in order to galvanize the people against them and achieve their goals. You used anarchist as a way to try and discredit the OWS movement as a whole. Are they the same thing? Absolutely not. Are there very obvious parallels? Absolutely.

Big boys huh? I thought I was talking to a high school freshman.

Hardly. History is a passion of mine; particularly modern (1865 - present) world and U.S. history. I have stacks of books on numerous subjects from that time frame. Like I alluded to earlier, I planned on majoring in it in college at one point, before I decided that I really couldn't make a living with that degree outside of teaching high school history or a similar class.