Martin/Zimmerman-----Poll

[All Else Failed]

Why is it okay for you to second-guess Zimmerman in order to defend him?

You claim to be pro-truth, but nowhere in the multiple posts you have made in this thread do you consider for a second the possibility that Zimmerman exceeded his legal rights, nor do you have the balls to question whether the law as it stands is adequate.

I'm not guessing what Zimmerman thought and wanted to do. I'm saying what his possible actions where. Not the same.


Um, I actually said multiple times that Zimmerman could be guilty of doing what he shouldn't have. So

?



The law is adequate.




But yeah, reading the news no lawyer worth his weight in legal fees thinks Zimmerman will ever get murder 2. There will probably be race riots.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

If Martin reengaged Zimmerman (Zimmerman was recorded as to have lost him when he was following Martin) and caused a physical confrontation and Zimmerman had the belief that his bodily well-being was in danger, Zimmerman can be pretty damn innocent for shooting Martin out of defense. .

Ahem.........

 

[All Else Failed]

Ahem.........

Um if it is indeed true that Trayvon was smashing his head into the ground that is something most people would think, not me trying to suggest that I know Zimmerman's personal beliefs on why he was following Trayvon.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Not buying it, you've contradicted yourself, and you know it.

 

[All Else Failed]

No, I really haven't. Yet again, you're looking for things in my arguments that simply do not exist to twist my words. Have fun.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

If Martin reengaged Zimmerman (Zimmerman was recorded as to have lost him when he was following Martin) and caused a physical confrontation and Zimmerman had the belief that his bodily well-being was in danger, Zimmerman can be pretty damn innocent for shooting Martin out of defense.
.

S.
Please explain where I've twisted your words, it's a direct quote.

 

[The Man]

I'd say the wounds on his head and nose along with the eyewitness who says Zimmerman getting beaten is proof enough. Nothing else really matters.

You are correct. It makes no difference because it doesn't prove the prosecution's case.

Agreed.
We have witnesses seeing him beaten.
The injuries to go with it.
Not a single mark on Martin{according to the funeral parlor}
When we add in the head wounds..it looks like Zimmerman was taking a good ass whipping.
The state doesnt have anything...even if a witness does appear,they will look pretty foolish given the above facts

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Not a single mark on Martin

Not even a gunshot wound? Miraculous!

 

[All Else Failed]

S.
Please explain where I've twisted your words, it's a direct quote.

yeah a direct quote that you're applying a totally different meaning to than what I meant.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Can't see it. If you meant something different, you should have said something different.

Face it, you screwed up.It happens, move on.

 

[All Else Failed]

I didn't. You're making this all up by quoting something I said that you do not fully understand when you apply it to what you think I said.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

I fully understand thanks. You screwed up.It happens, move on.

 

[The Man]

I think you are hung up on the murder 2 charge. As others have pointed out, it's different in each state. Here in PA it may be called manslaughter while in FL it's called murder 2, both carrying the same sentence.




Absolutely it makes a difference. Everything is considered when determining the chain of events that lead to the shooting.



I can't answer that.

That's something that needs to be determined by the jury.

I don't know if Zimmerman's story is true and I don't put a lot of weight behind it since we can ONLY hear his side and not Martin's.
I don't think that Zimmerman was beat up as bad as you guys make it out. There is nothing life threatening from the wounds he received. I have seen my share of fights/bumps/bruises and those were pretty pale in comparison.
A broken nose isn't life threatening and neither are cuts on the head. He didn't have a skull fracture or concussion, so his head wasn't hit that hard.

So do I think he used excessive force......? Maybe

I think you are hung up on the murder 2 charge. As others have pointed out, it's different in each state. Here in PA it may be called manslaughter while in FL it's called murder 2, both carrying the same sentence.

I read a little on Fla manslaughter laws...Voluntary manslaughter is what he needed to be charged with if anything.

Then it is a determination of whether excessive force was used in self defense....which I find proper..if we didnt have these laws we could kill each other merely because we were in a fight.

Absolutely it makes a difference. Everything is considered when determining the chain of events that lead to the shooting.

Only if you are suggesting he went to go murder martin then yes....but how the two of them ended up face to face really doesnt matter.

Let me explain..if we were in Fla and I came up and slapped the crap out of you...you just cant shoot me.
If I start getting the better end of you you still cant shoot me...unless I am placing you in great peril.
If you came up and slapped me rather than me slap you first..the same would also apply.
Granted it may make a little worse for the aggressor character wise but should have no determination whether or not justifiable force was used..

I can't answer that.

That's something that needs to be determined by the jury.

I don't know if Zimmerman's story is true and I don't put a lot of weight behind it since we can ONLY hear his side and not Martin's.
I don't think that Zimmerman was beat up as bad as you guys make it out. There is nothing life threatening from the wounds he received. I have seen my share of fights/bumps/bruises and those were pretty pale in comparison.
A broken nose isn't life threatening and neither are cuts on the head. He didn't have a skull fracture or concussion, so his head wasn't hit that hard.

IMO if you are getting your head smashed a shooting is justified...comes down to opinion I suppose.

Have you ever hit your head on the concrete?...Working on a car etc just from a few inches...Dodging a falling starter of similar.

It hurts like hell tim.

I asked you to do this...go find some concrete and gingerly hit the back of your head on it...nice and slow.
Now imagine that being hard enough to split your head open...receiving multiples of these you will be LUCKY to maintain CONSCIOUSNESS with much softer blows.

Now imagine the pain..everything going into slow motion and a feel of desperation occurs.

Ever get into a good fight Tim..get hit so hard..that time slows way down..what do you tell yourself tim?
"I cant take anymore shots like that"..and do whatever you have to do.

Thats how it is Tim...Its a different world...if your head is being smashed to the point of busting open... and how many slams took place that didn't bust the head open?..go look at the pictures there is a lot of red area across the back of his head that isnt blood.

As said tim...let me give you a gun..get on top of you then start smashing your head...you will shoot me.
A jurror cant really comprehend what is going on unless they start getting their head smashed or are professional fighters

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

All sounds very noble, but the superficial headwound evidence does not align with the emotive terms that you use in your arguments.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I thought the whole point of the pro- Zimmerman camp was that they DIDN'T WANT people filling in the blanks?

Or is filling in the blanks OK as long as the dead guy ends up as the bad guy, and the gunman ends up a hero?

It's the Zimmerbigot modus operandi - make shit up to justify the killing of an unarmed black teenager because he was probably a thug anyway and his life isn't worth as much as the life of a "law abiding" concealed carry permit holder like Zimmerman.

Seriously, what else other than the surfacing of latent bigotry and the fear of this incident causing lawmakers to revist these flawed "Stand-your-ground" laws would cause people to completely abandon common sense and make up all the wild stories these Zimmertards keep making up?

When you look at the timeline and the fact that Zimmerman had ample opportunity to stop following Martin AFTER the 911 operator told him to stop and then look at the logistics involved in the layout of the condominium complex it is clear Zimmerman was the instigator. Look at where the killing took place. Look how far away from his vehicle Zimmerman was. Look how out in the open the area where the killing took place is. Had Zimmerman IMMEDIATELY turned around at 7:13, Martin would still be alive and Zimmerman would still be free to be an idiot with a gun and maybe, just maybe never kill anyone.



................

Purple Arrow - Main Entrance
Dark Blue Oval - Clubhouse
Orange X - 2831 Retreat view circle address
Yellow X - approximate location in backyards where Trayvon body was
Light blue X - Approximate location where his father was living
Red arrow - Back entrance

I've posted this about four times now and the Zimmerbigots ignore it and go right on with their fucktardery of claiming Zimmerman was only defending himself. Zimmerman had ample opportunity to avoid this incident and his FAILURE to avoid it and his FAILURE to follow the instructions of law enforcement caused this incident to happen, therefore Zimmerman is responsible for the death of Travon Martin.

One more time for the hard headed make-shit-up Zimmerbigots:

I'll say it again - Zimmerman had been TRAINED not to follow suspects:


Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival said she met Zimmerman in September at a community neighborhood watch presentation.

“I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out,’ ” Dorival said. “‘Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about not being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...#storylink=cpy


Then he was told the night of the killing not to follow Martin.

Zimmerman CAUSED this killing to happen by his own actions. Whatever happened that led Zimmerman to shoot Martin was caused by Zimmerman.

For some reason some people simply cannot accept that fact and continue to dream up all kinds of scenarios that might justify this unjustifiable killing. And AGAIN - here's the timeline and map of the complex that you Zimmerbigots will again ignore and go off down random rabbit trails of tin-foil-hat defense of the indefensable:

Timeline:

7:11 PM: Zimmerman calls 911.

7:12 Phone records show Martins girlfriend is talking to him.

7:13 Zimmerman told to STOP FOLLOWING MARTIN.

7:15 Zimmerman hangs up with 911 operator.

7:16 Martin's phone line goes dead.

7:17 cops arrive on scene and find Martin dead.

Some links discussing the 5 minutes it took for Zimmerman to destroy two families:

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/04/02/trayvon-martin-shooting-timeline

This link has a timeline and a map of the complex. I've posted the map and timeline several times, and each time, the Zimmer apologists ignore it and go right back to making up "what-if" scenarios that make zero sense:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1

If you look at all this evidence and still side with Zimmerman you have abandoned all reason and logic, and the only logical explanation is that Zimmerbigots think Trayvon Martins life was worth less than Zimmermans.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

I think you've hit the nail on the head with this one. This is not about whether Zimmerman acted within the law -it's about whether the law itself provides adequate protection from people like Zimmerman.

 

[All Else Failed]

I fully understand thanks. You screwed up.It happens, move on.

Nah you're trying to save face here. Just end it while you can.






Also, John, it is sort of funny when you constantly use "Zimmerbot" because it makes you sound exactly like those right-wing hosts that you hate so much.

 

[The Man]

All sounds very noble, but the superficial headwound evidence does not align with the emotive terms that you use in your arguments.

If there is something you disagree with point it out

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Nah you're trying to save face here. Just end it while you can.

You screwed up.It happens, move on.

 

[The Man]

It's the Zimmerbigot modus operandi - make shit up to justify the killing of an unarmed black teenager because he was probably a thug anyway and his life isn't worth as much as the life of a "law abiding" concealed carry permit holder like Zimmerman.

Seriously, what else other than the surfacing of latent bigotry and the fear of this incident causing lawmakers to revist these flawed "Stand-your-ground" laws would cause people to completely abandon common sense and make up all the wild stories these Zimmertards keep making up?

When you look at the timeline and the fact that Zimmerman had ample opportunity to stop following Martin AFTER the 911 operator told him to stop and then look at the logistics involved in the layout of the condominium complex it is clear Zimmerman was the instigator. Look at where the killing took place. Look how far away from his vehicle Zimmerman was. Look how out in the open the area where the killing took place is. Had Zimmerman IMMEDIATELY turned around at 7:13, Martin would still be alive and Zimmerman would still be free to be an idiot with a gun and maybe, just maybe never kill anyone.



................

Purple Arrow - Main Entrance
Dark Blue Oval - Clubhouse
Orange X - 2831 Retreat view circle address
Yellow X - approximate location in backyards where Trayvon body was
Light blue X - Approximate location where his father was living
Red arrow - Back entrance

I've posted this about four times now and the Zimmerbigots ignore it and go right on with their fucktardery of claiming Zimmerman was only defending himself. Zimmerman had ample opportunity to avoid this incident and his FAILURE to avoid it and his FAILURE to follow the instructions of law enforcement caused this incident to happen, therefore Zimmerman is responsible for the death of Travon Martin.

One more time for the hard headed make-shit-up Zimmerbigots:



If you look at all this evidence and still side with Zimmerman you have abandoned all reason and logic, and the only logical explanation is that Zimmerbigots think Trayvon Martins life was worth less than Zimmermans.

Are you really that dense John?
Assuming he followed him.
Does that give martin the right to smash his head?
Yes
No