Is it time to legalize pot and reduce the death rate of tobacco and alcohol?

[Stone]

Decriminalization or Legalization of marijuana? I think both have pros and cons ...

There is no perfect solution.
Only better ones.

In a practical sense, legalization isn't a solution.....it's the abandonment of searching for one.
Any perfect solution has to come us as a group, and I shouldn't need to argue that that's not likely.

Portugal seems to have had success with decriminalization.
The laws there are not draconian against the user/abuser and seems a more logical way to keep abuse down to non destructive levels in and of a society.

 

[Mercury]

Interesting ... I just read up on Portugal's decriminalization and the numbers do show some pretty positive results.

 

[satinbutterfly]

And yet, here you are speaking of something you claim to know with out any experience.

That's your opinion, but I see no argument for the basis of it.
Governments are the representatives of a society and our form in the US is one of being a republic.
The legislators have been expressing the will of the society, not the minority opinion.
There....does that clear it up for you?

They currently do.
And you'll find the thread starter actually comments on that kind of lack of morality .... in another thread.

Now you are into the arena of sophistry.
Indeed, but this thread is about specific chemical abuse and not necessarily the addictive issues.

The issue is about an association of people having the right to safeguard it's own health and safety as a civilized society.
And that includes more than just drug abuse.....it even goes to such common issues as traffic control. Speed and behavior or even traffic lanes are controlled for safety reasons.
So is drug abuse because wide scale abuse is a social problem, not just for the abuser, also for those the abuser is in contact with. As drug abuse spreads, so do social problems increase.

You can say what ever you please, but I've obviously proven you wrong.

I don't need experience to know that I don't believe the government should have any say in such matters. If you use that argument, then quite frankly you shouldn't speak about drugs at all since you're so against them. Don't speak to what you don't have experience on, right?

Actually the government should focus on governing from the constitution and not on imposing the opinions of idiots on the whole of America when it obviously doesn't work in the first place. I realize those of us who actually take responsibility for our actions are a smaller group than the rest of you and you find that difficult to understand, but there are those of us who do believe in society's right to live as they wish.

I don't believe that choosing to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, or any other drug use for that matter, indicates a lack of morality. And even if I did, I certainly wouldn't feel the need to impose my choice of lifestyle on anyone else.

We can't enforce our current drug laws and not all drugs are illegal. Why should the government get to decide when the ones that actually are legal are more damaging to your health than the ones that aren't? They've obviously proven they are completely incapable of legislating something like this. So, it all boils down to people actually being responsible for their own actions, and enforcing safety in a more reasonable manner, like making sure those who drive under the influence are punished accordingly.

You can't prove anyone right or wrong. It's simply a matter of a difference of opinion, and yours matters no more than anyone else's, as much as you'd like to think otherwise. You're certainly welcome to think you're superior, though it really just proves you're not.

 

[The Man]

Ummm... just so you guys know... we already teach our children it's ok to use 'drugs' once they're of age.

You have partially identified the problem..Which is lack of education being taught in early years regarding the negativity of drug usage by society.

Parenting has shifted in the last decades from that to a driven society to that of individual placement within society...As we can see in many areas the outcome is not good

 

[Stone]

I don't need experience to know that I don't believe the government should have any say in such matters. If you use that argument, then quite frankly you shouldn't speak about drugs at all since you're so against them. Don't speak to what you don't have experience on, right?

Actually the government should focus on governing from the constitution and not on imposing the opinions of idiots on the whole of America when it obviously doesn't work in the first place. I realize those of us who actually take responsibility for our actions are a smaller group than the rest of you and you find that difficult to understand, but there are those of us who do believe in society's right to live as they wish.

I don't believe that choosing to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, or any other drug use for that matter, indicates a lack of morality. And even if I did, I certainly wouldn't feel the need to impose my choice of lifestyle on anyone else.

We can't enforce our current drug laws and not all drugs are illegal. Why should the government get to decide when the ones that actually are legal are more damaging to your health than the ones that aren't? They've obviously proven they are completely incapable of legislating something like this. So, it all boils down to people actually being responsible for their own actions, and enforcing safety in a more reasonable manner, like making sure those who drive under the influence are punished accordingly.

You can't prove anyone right or wrong. It's simply a matter of a difference of opinion, and yours matters no more than anyone else's, as much as you'd like to think otherwise. You're certainly welcome to think you're superior, though it really just proves you're not.

I don't need experience to know that I don't believe the government should have any say in such matters.

However, my previous argument proves you wrong.

If you use that argument, then quite frankly you shouldn't speak about drugs at all since you're so against them.

I suggest you reread the argument.....it's about living in a society with drug abuse issues.
Again, I prove you wrong.

Don't speak to what you don't have experience on, right?

I suggest you read the thread....I address the impact upon society from drug abuse.
Again, I prove you wrong.

Actually the government should focus on governing from the constitution and not on imposing the opinions of idiots on the whole of America when it obviously doesn't work in the first place.

The you should make yourself knowledgeable of the Constitution.
All drug laws are Constitutional.
Prohibition was constitutional.
Prohibition was not repealed on Constitutional issues.
Look it up if you don't believe it.
Even the Ohio laws , the state we both live in, on drugs are constitutional.

You just don't like laws that pertain to you

So I prove you wrong again.

I don't believe that choosing to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, or any other drug use for that matter, indicates a lack of morality.

Non sequitur......the morality angle is about teaching there is no harn associated with those activities.
Again, in the context of this thread, I prove you wrong

I realize those of us who actually take responsibility for our actions are a smaller group than the rest of you and you find that difficult to understand,

Teaching children there is no harm to abusing drugs is not acting responsibly.
To this issue....you must be insane.

but there are those of us who do believe in society's right to live as they wish.

That makes no sense.
Libertarians , of which you appear to be , don't believe in group right's.
I bothered to read Liberty Defined.
Look it up if you don't believe me.
Anyway, as you stated it, if society has rights, it also has the right for self defense.

You proved yourself wrong.

We can't enforce our current drug laws

Indeed......so?
How does that negate the concept of decriminalization?

Why should the government get to decide when the ones that actually are legal are more damaging to your health than the ones that aren't?

I answered that before.

You are still wrong.

So, it all boils down to people actually being responsible for their own actions, and enforcing safety in a more reasonable manner, like making sure those who drive under the influence are punished accordingly.

In a perfect world.
But drug abuse expands beyond personal contact.
From safety to productivity to social support.....society in general, degrades at some point from this disruption.
Society chooses the limits whether you like it or not.
Of course, if Libertarians were to take control as you seem to wish, about all that results is social chaos and elements of anarchy. Like the Old West. Imposition is the rule and those with the most imposition effectively, rule
Governing a society on the merits of 'responsibility' is an incredibly subjective format.
It is a position of individual bias.
ie.....selfishness.

You can't prove anyone right or wrong.

I just have

 

[Stone]

You have partially identified the problem..Which is lack of education being taught in early years regarding the negativity of drug usage by society.

Parenting has shifted in the last decades from that to a driven society to that of individual placement within society...As we can see in many areas the outcome is not good

Indeed.
good assessment.

 

[The Man]

:24:

I don't have children so I can't speak from experience. However, I don't think the government should have anything to do with choosing what drugs are legal/illegal. Let the parents teach their children as they wish. And besides... there is plenty of things you can be addicted to that aren't even considered 'drugs'.

I'm just saying, your argument is completely illogical and irrational.

Drugs are regulated by their dangers..from Tylenol to Heroin.

Technically any drug is a poison by legal definition...the effects are merely the bodies reaction to the drug.
Whether it causes one to piss away excess water..lower blood pressure..keep the heart going... or make you sleep.
Thus your government involvement.......For sake of simplicity ..Mom leaves heart pills on table baby eats them baby dies....Thus regulation alone is needed for that simple reason..Secondly..self medications..Sister kills herself thinking she may have diabetes ...nope..so the insulin kills her
The list is endless.
Above are just in regard to approved drugs...there are loads of drugs that never hit the market.
Nor does above include homemade drugs...as we can see..it is imperative that we have drug regulations to PROTECT SOCIETY from themselves...We are surrounded by idiots so have to have regulations for the best interest of society

 

[The Man]

Indeed.
good assessment.

Thanks.

 

[Mercury]

"The basic thing nobody asks is why do people take drugs of any sort? Why do we have these accessories to normal living to live? I mean, is there something wrong with society that's making us so pressurized that we cannot live without guarding ourselves against it?"

John Lennon

Isn't that the truth!?! Whether it be the well regulated antidepressant to the "dope" on the street ...

 

[Alien Allen]

all I can add is that supply is pretty flippin tight right now

Damn Neanderthals

We could all have free health care if some would come out of their caves

 

[Jaybird]

Caffeine is an addictive drug. It has viewable withdrawl symptoms. It has about the same likelyhood of overdose as marijuana. It has verifiable effects on the human body.

Yet, a 12 year old can walk into a grocery store and buy a red bull, or walk into starbucks and buy a double espresso.

Our country did try to regulate it at one time. They even seized a bunch of coca-cola.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Forty_Barrels_and_Twenty_Kegs_of_Coca-Cola

And I think our country will take up the battle against caffeine very soon. Why? Because the government likes to listen to moms cry "Its for the kids" when in reality, it is people trying to tell others what to do with their bodies.

It is sad how this country is becoming more and more of a nanny state.

Legalization is the only real answer. Otherwise it is just more hypocrisy on the governments part.

 

[The Man]

I don't need experience to know that I don't believe the government should have any say in such matters. If you use that argument, then quite frankly you shouldn't speak about drugs at all since you're so against them. Don't speak to what you don't have experience on, right?

Actually the government should focus on governing from the constitution and not on imposing the opinions of idiots on the whole of America when it obviously doesn't work in the first place. I realize those of us who actually take responsibility for our actions are a smaller group than the rest of you and you find that difficult to understand, but there are those of us who do believe in society's right to live as they wish.

I don't believe that choosing to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, or any other drug use for that matter, indicates a lack of morality. And even if I did, I certainly wouldn't feel the need to impose my choice of lifestyle on anyone else.

We can't enforce our current drug laws and not all drugs are illegal. Why should the government get to decide when the ones that actually are legal are more damaging to your health than the ones that aren't? They've obviously proven they are completely incapable of legislating something like this. So, it all boils down to people actually being responsible for their own actions, and enforcing safety in a more reasonable manner, like making sure those who drive under the influence are punished accordingly.

You can't prove anyone right or wrong. It's simply a matter of a difference of opinion, and yours matters no more than anyone else's, as much as you'd like to think otherwise. You're certainly welcome to think you're superior, though it really just proves you're not.

I don't need experience to know that I don't believe the government should have any say in such matters.

Broke down this equates to..."Its ok to to get drunk and wipe out grandma and grand kids on the freeway"
Grandma has reasonable government protections providing a safer society...from those that disregard those protections.

If you use that argument, then quite frankly you shouldn't speak about drugs at all since you're so against them.

Isnt a requirement...If one jumps out of a plane without a parachute he will splat..One doesnt need to try it first.

Actually the government should focus on governing from the constitution and not on imposing the opinions of idiots on the whole of America when it obviously doesn't work in the first place

And where does it say in the constitution that it is ok to wipe out grandma on the freeway?
Ones liberties are just that but do not excuse behavior which directly effects others.
I have the right to yell at the top of lungs to right?....Yes...but not when it is the guys ear in front of me at the checkout line.

I realize those of us who actually take responsibility for our actions are a smaller group than the rest of you and you find that difficult to understand, but there are those of us who do believe in society's right to live as they wish.

I believe thats Somalia....which does not rank high at all for one of the desired places to live.

We can't enforce our current drug laws and not all drugs are illegal

Non based argument...we cant stop all murders either ...but we dont make them legal as we dont have full control.

Why should the government get to decide when the ones that actually are legal are more damaging to your health than the ones that aren't?

LOL
There is alot of tests that goes into such...the decision is based upon testing and trials..not a hat lottery.

They've obviously proven they are completely incapable of legislating something like this.

Perhaps lack of legislation as we can see we still have a society with a drug usage issue....further legislation is needed...The task becomes more complicated however when we have those that cry for relaxed legislation.

So, it all boils down to people actually being responsible for their own actions, and enforcing safety in a more reasonable manner, like making sure those who drive under the influence are punished accordingly.

I agree and disagree....punishing someone wont bring back the grandmother and grandchildren...they should be punished..I agree..but this is not a solution,,its merely a reaction..the solution is legislation to prevent such from happening to begin with.

 

[Stone]

"The basic thing nobody asks is why do people take drugs of any sort? Why do we have these accessories to normal living to live? I mean, is there something wrong with society that's making us so pressurized that we cannot live without guarding ourselves against it?"

John Lennon

Isn't that the truth!?! Whether it be the well regulated antidepressant to the "dope" on the street ...

Solution....
Vote Libertarian?
( I'm not serious )

The world is certainly screwed up.
And the US seems in the fore front.
From financial pressures to a lack of morality to peer pressures to world domination to what-ever.
Too much stress for a lot of people.




Maybe you all ought to be like me.......calm and cool Jack

 

[Alien Allen]

tell me how exactly my smoking pot in the quiet of my home is going to kill grandma and grandpa?

there are some things you can not legislate and it has been proven

there are plenty of laws banning drunk driving and they keep lowering the limit to the point that makes a criminal out of somebody that should not be. All the while not addressing the problem with repeat offenders that get wasted and drive.

Prohibition did not and never will work

You two Neanderthals continue to define use as abuse. There is a difference. You can say you have proven your points and so what? It is equally proven that the war on drugs is a losing battle. And always will be.

 

[satinbutterfly]

You two Neanderthals continue to define use as abuse. There is a difference. You can say you have proven your points and so what? It is equally proven that the war on drugs is a losing battle. And always will be.

That's the funny thing about it... they keep saying they're proving things, but they're only stating their opinions and too damn stupid to know the difference. I give up on trying to have a rational discussion with fucking morons. I'm with you... damn neanderthals.

 

[Mercury]

You two continue to define use as abuse..

A good point ... moderation is important with anything.

 

[Mercury]

Solution....
Vote Libertarian?
( I'm not serious )

(In my best Hitler voice) Are you speaking ill of the party?

 

[The Man]

tell me how exactly my smoking pot in the quiet of my home is going to kill grandma and grandpa?

there are some things you can not legislate and it has been proven

there are plenty of laws banning drunk driving and they keep lowering the limit to the point that makes a criminal out of somebody that should not be. All the while not addressing the problem with repeat offenders that get wasted and drive.

Prohibition did not and never will work

You two Neanderthals continue to define use as abuse. There is a difference. You can say you have proven your points and so what? It is equally proven that the war on drugs is a losing battle. And always will be.

ell me how exactly my smoking pot in the quiet of my home is going to kill grandma and grandpa?

Has anyone stated that you smoking will kill grandma and the little ones?

But since you appear to be using extended logic..we will roll with it.
AA gets high passes out and catches the apt complex on fire...not saying you live in an apt complex..but am using extended logic that you brought into the argument.

there are some things you can not legislate and it has been proven

Anything can be legislated..however success of a legislation does vary.
But still its a rather lame argument...So lets legalize bank robbery as legislation hasnt prevented it fully?...As we can see its a silly argument.

there are plenty of laws banning drunk driving and they keep lowering the limit to the point that makes a criminal out of somebody that should not be.

The goal is to reduce traffic deaths related to alcohol..Not to create criminals.

All the while not addressing the problem with repeat offenders that get wasted and drive.

You have just provided an argument to outlaw alcohol.

Prohibition did not and never will work

Same lame ass shit you guys have been shouting for years
And again...laws to prevent bank robbery ...reduce the number of bank robberies.

Essentially your argument would call for tougher punishment if you find unsatisfied results with prohibition.

You two Neanderthals continue to define use as abuse.

Illegal drug usage is abuse of the drug...pretty cut and dried.

There is a difference. You can say you have proven your points and so what? It is equally proven that the war on drugs is a losing battle. And always will be

LOL...another old argument.

Its not a losing battle....it is a non stop battle.

Didnt you just whine a few posts up its dry at the moment.................They appear to be winning.

 

[Stone]

Caffeine is an addictive drug. It has viewable withdrawl symptoms. It has about the same likelyhood of overdose as marijuana. It has verifiable effects on the human body.

Yet, a 12 year old can walk into a grocery store and buy a red bull, or walk into starbucks and buy a double espresso.

Our country did try to regulate it at one time. They even seized a bunch of coca-cola.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Forty_Barrels_and_Twenty_Kegs_of_Coca-Cola

And I think our country will take up the battle against caffeine very soon. Why? Because the government likes to listen to moms cry "Its for the kids" when in reality, it is people trying to tell others what to do with their bodies.

It is sad how this country is becoming more and more of a nanny state.

Legalization is the only real answer. Otherwise it is just more hypocrisy on the governments part.

If you are looking for perfection, I suggest you try building your own society.
As many mistakes that are currently made, your argument is a call for the end of a democratic society with a representative form of government....and has more faults than what exists.

It is sad how this country is becoming more and more of a nanny state.

That I can agree with.

Legalization is the only real answer.

Currently, the voter has been choosing differently.

 

[The Man]

That's the funny thing about it... they keep saying they're proving things, but they're only stating their opinions and too damn stupid to know the difference. I give up on trying to have a rational discussion with fucking morons. I'm with you... damn neanderthals.

You appear distraught and frustrated as your fallacious arguments didnt hold water.

Remember if you are going to throw rocks at a cave man....he is going to use that big stuck and knock em out of the park