How Can God Prove Himself?

[Minor Axis]

I was born and raised as a Muslim. The basis for my belief is a strong one.

So the basis of your belief is being indoctrinated as a Muslim. I'm not impressed.

The thing with Islam is different, Quran...
They are facts, at least Quran is, we know when exactly it was sent down, and what happened
to it, and no one would dare do any sort of Tahrif=Distortion, Besides, Allah promised to protect it.

.

That's what they all say, they as in true believers... Seriously, this is the most dangerous of propositions, when the believers start proclaiming the facts of God.

Now tell me what your thing that convinced you that "all" books were distorted, and that the flow you used to sticking to waswrong and made you a spiritual agnostic!

All you have to do is take your average Bible Story, the great flood, Adam and Eve, God's rules vs his punishments, God's relationship to mankind, God's absence, and apply an iota of logic and it becomes apparent that these stories while they can't be disproven, are fantastical in nature, with zero, let me repeat ZERO proof of truth or evidence that a divine being was involved. There is only conjecture. If you are willing to dedicate your life to such an unsubstantiated premise, be my guest.

No, it doesn't.

Subsiding me beliefs, if there were no God, I lost nothing, whether there is another life or not, I am in the safe side , the same as you are.
And if God exists, I win, and go to heaven God willing, and in that case, people who don't believe in God would be in trouble.

SO in both cases, who believes will be on the safe side, and who is not will only be safe in one case.

You are not on the safe side depending on how you answer the following question. How does Allah treat those who can't or will not commit to him and his rules in their lifetimes?

He's God, and whether you believe in him or not, he's the one who created you, and the one to see you in the Judgment Day.

Spoken like a true zealot.

 

[Minor Axis]

What i am going to say may cause offense and trust me i do not mean it to do so it is my own personal view, but if there was a god why has he not shown us he is real do you not feel that the world would be a better place if it was fact. I truly believe that if there was evidence of "Ok do wrong you will burn, do right you will be in the grace of heaven" people would maybe better this world. If there is a god why would he make us wonder??? SO we can make our choices and have free will??? To me (please do not take this to offense) its like saying God is a kid with an ant farm, disrupting life with childish behavior for his own amusement. How can god prove he is real.... By actually letting the people who follow him know he is really there. Yes i understand that is what faith is for BUT back to my statement about the ant farm wouldn't life be far less complex if we just KNEW...

Like i said i mean no offense just my 2 cents.

Thanks for your participation.

Although I'm talking about God, but I'm only using the traditional view of God/God's Rules to make a point. The entire premise of "follow God's rules or you'll be punished", discredits itself with just a little analysis. The question becomes do we become better people because it is the right thing to do or because if not good, we will be caught and punished? What kind of morality is God promoting? The only morality that counts is based on your decision/motivation to be a better person/spirit because you want to be better. God can't fix this with punishment. It is up to us to discover our path forward.

Now if there is something that approximates the traditional view of God, he/she/it has done a terrible job of managing mankind. However the supreme intelligent force (if any) may not be traditional at all and could easily be beyond our comprehension and have no rules what so ever for us during this life. As I said what good are rules? There are only the moral standards we choose.

 

[mhtal3at]

So the basis of your belief is being indoctrinated as a Muslim. I'm not impressed.

.

That's what they all say, they as in true believers... Seriously, this is the most dangerous of propositions, when the believers start proclaiming the facts of God.



All you have to do is take your average Bible Story, the great flood, Adam and Eve, God's rules vs his punishments, God's relationship to mankind, God's absence, and apply an iota of logic and it becomes apparent that these stories while they can't be disproven, are fantastical in nature, with zero, let me repeat ZERO proof of truth or evidence that a divine being was involved. There is only conjecture. If you are willing to dedicate your life to such an unsubstantiated premise, be my guest.

I don't care f you are impressed, and I know that it's better to be a convert than an innate Muslim cuz then you choose to be, not just follow, and who are converts are many and increasing.






Why is it the most dangerous thing? I don't get it.




You don't seem to get it in the third part, God does not involve our actions, and the Quran was sent down just as a moral lesson with its plentiful stories.
"Man is able to choose, and is not driven" that means that God will judge us since we have the ability to ponder and think for ourselves and act due to that decision we've taken.
Nevertheless, if we were not to choose, God wouldn't have neither punished nor rewarded us.
So, non of these stories were influenced by God, if so, there would have been no evil.
No evil, you wouldn't have been saying so, nor could Minor Axis start this topic

man is let to choose

that's why people are going Heaven 4 Eternity
and others are going to hell as well

 

[mhtal3at]

You are not on the safe side depending on how you answer the following question. How does Allah treat those who can't or will not commit to him and his rules in their lifetimes?

why are you worried, you should be feeling that he doesn't exist, so he won't hurt since he doesn't exist.

Spoken like a true zealot.

Thanks,but I am not, and I know I am not. And I know that he will see you later and I wish you are on HIS safeside.

 

[ATKU2]

Yeah that's what I'm wondering... is he really "real"?

Cause like, we don't have any "real" proof...

All we have is a bible created by someone cause they "supposibly" had talked to god or something...
and we have a bunch of people saying they've also talked to God or Jesus.

Like, we can't really prove much when it comes to spirituality.

 

[MoonOwl]

"How Can God Prove Himself"

hmmmmmmmm........ A big one right now would be for every priest that molested children and every other HolyMan that enabled the cover ups to be struck down w/a bolt of lighting.

That would go a long way to proving that an actual "God" exists. Pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

 

[Roxi]

He's God, and whether you believe in him or not, he's the one who created you, and the one to see you in the Judgment Day.

No offense but that's a really weak response to my post...

 

[Roxi]

Thanks for your participation.

Although I'm talking about God, but I'm only using the traditional view of God/God's Rules to make a point. The entire premise of "follow God's rules or you'll be punished", discredits itself with just a little analysis. The question becomes do we become better people because it is the right thing to do or because if not good, we will be caught and punished? What kind of morality is God promoting? The only morality that counts is based on your decision/motivation to be a better person/spirit because you want to be better. God can't fix this with punishment. It is up to us to discover our path forward.

Now if there is something that approximates the traditional view of God, he/she/it has done a terrible job of managing mankind. However the supreme intelligent force (if any) may not be traditional at all and could easily be beyond our comprehension and have no rules what so ever for us during this life. As I said what good are rules? There are only the moral standards we choose.

Currently on my phone ill reply to this when I get to a computer

 

[Guyzerr]

"How Can God Prove Himself"

hmmmmmmmm........ A big one right now would be for every priest that molested children and every other HolyMan that enabled the cover ups to be struck down w/a bolt of lighting.

That would go a long way to proving that an actual "God" exists. Pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

Kinda like banging the same drum we are. Pointless waste of time because they never answer us. Sad isn't it.

 

[Minor Axis]

Why is it the most dangerous thing? I don't get it.

It's dangerous because the critical nature of logical thinking disappears when your faith magically turns into facts. As I said, there are people killing themselves and lots of others for the promise of heaven and a job well done, with no basis what so ever to reach this conclusion except by self delusion.

You don't seem to get it in the third part, God does not involve our actions, and the Quran was sent down just as a moral lesson with its plentiful stories.

Is not the Quran the Holy Book that your religion is based on? It is more than morals. It is portrayed as factual just minus the facts and a reason to believe your religious dogma.

"Man is able to choose, and is not driven" that means that God will judge us since we have the ability to ponder and think for ourselves and act due to that decision we've taken. Nevertheless, if we were not to choose, God wouldn't have neither punished nor rewarded us.

What do you mean exactly? In this case, what would happen to you after physical death?

that's why people are going Heaven 4 Eternity
and others are going to hell as well

That's just scary hyperbole to keep the sheep inline. Or do you have some facts to back it up? No scripture quoting please.

No offense but that's a really weak response to my post...

That is the standard fervent better-quake-in-your-boots response.

 

[Minor Axis]

"How Can God Prove Himself"

hmmmmmmmm........ A big one right now would be for every priest that molested children and every other HolyMan that enabled the cover ups to be struck down w/a bolt of lighting.

That would go a long way to proving that an actual "God" exists. Pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

If there is a "God" and/or heaven, or even just a Star Wars type of "force", I don't believe that is what it's all about. Without doubt, God does not punish bad people or reward good people or protect innocent people in this life as there are too may instances of the opposite happening. Agreed? I realize I'm repeating myself from other threads (sorry), but if your real life continues on in the spirit world, with possible revisits to the physical world, then what happens here good and bad is experience, dealing with adversity and possibly gaining wisdom. Of course it could also make you bitter. But in the big scheme, (if there is a spiritual existence) there is a good probability this life is not the end all and really becomes a minor aspect of our overall existence. How's that for definitive?

 

[MoonOwl]

I agree with you and I knew that when I posted.

But I was trying to think of an example in today's times that would prove that "God" existed. Targeted strategic blasts from above seemed a reasonable example

 

[Minor Axis]

I agree with you and I knew that when I posted.

But I was trying to think of an example in today's times that would prove that "God" existed. Targeted strategic blasts from above seemed a reasonable example

It's been said that ancient people saw aliens and thought they were gods. Depending on how advanced the aliens are, that could still be a problem today.

 

[mhtal3at]

It's dangerous because the critical nature of logical thinking disappears when your faith magically turns into facts. As I said, there are people killing themselves and lots of others for the promise of heaven and a job well done, with no basis what so ever to reach this conclusion except by self delusion.

Actually, people killing themselves is a controversial issue in Islam, there is no such law to know unless one's own intention but himself. For example let's say that you are an air force whatever soldier and you can't hit your target so you just have to go through it with your plane(am speaking of war times, not about killing civilians whether you kill yourself with them or you don't) and you can't also call someone who suicides for the sake of suicide a hero, why did he kill himself in the first place? If he's desperate of God's mercy, then he's probably an atheist, cuz the source of your belief is to believe that God can do everything(that makes sense, since he already did make everything)

Is not the Quran the Holy Book that your religion is based on? It is more than morals. It is portrayed as factual just minus the facts and a reason to believe your religious dogma.

Eh? Who told you so? Have you read it or you are just quoting as people say? If so, then you're stereotyped and you are another sheep, just belonging to another farm.

What do you mean exactly? In this case, what would happen to you after physical death?

I have no idea, but it's either Heaven or Hell or even Al Araf(The Heights) http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/007.qmt.html

That's just scary hyperbole to keep the sheep inline. Or do you have some facts to back it up? No scripture quoting please.

If it's scary to you, then why? You don't believe in God, why do you see it scary.

I believe in God, and that's not scary to anybody, it's just that people are enthused by Heaven, and they are not affected by Hell cuz they know that it's not the place for them. All they want to do is get to Heaven

It's like when there is an exam and the teacher says who is gonna succeed will be rewarded and who's gonna fail, will be burnt. Thus, who passes (and they sense it) will never care for the other punishment, cuz they have been telling people that the teacher was correct, and other students kept saying that he doesn't exist and all what he said was nothing because it's scripture quoting. After all, you can't blame the ones who succeed for not helping the ones who failed, cuz they tried hard to tell them, and the others should actually not be afraid of getting burnt, they believe they don't, then why do you find it scary?

 

[Minor Axis]

Actually, people killing themselves is a controversial issue in Islam, there is no such law to know unless one's own intention but himself. For example let's say that you are an air force whatever soldier and you can't hit your target so you just have to go through it with your plane(am speaking of war times, not about killing civilians whether you kill yourself with them or you don't) and you can't also call someone who suicides for the sake of suicide a hero, why did he kill himself in the first place? If he's desperate of God's mercy, then he's probably an atheist, cuz the source of your belief is to believe that God can do everything(that makes sense, since he already did make everything)

Interesting. There should not be much controversy about murder. Sounds more like rationalization in support of a tactic adopted by radical Muslim extremists. I'm not saying the military has clean hands, but the objectives are not innocent civilians as with suicide bombers.

Eh? Who told you so? Have you read it or you are just quoting as people say? If so, then you're stereotyped and you are another sheep, just belonging to another farm.

If not the Quran, what is the primary document that holy men use to reference the Muslim religion? Things like God's rules and expectations for man?

If it's scary to you, then why? You don't believe in God, why do you see it scary.

You misunderstand. Not scary to me at all. Scary to religious types like yourself and to those you are trying to influence as to the truth of your religion and the after life punishments it threatens.

I believe in God, and that's not scary to anybody, it's just that people are enthused by Heaven, and they are not affected by Hell cuz they know that it's not the place for them. All they want to do is get to Heaven

For what basis to believe there is heaven and hell, and a divine being who can send you there? Again, a book whose origins are based on ancient documents.

It's like when there is an exam and the teacher says who is gonna succeed will be rewarded and who's gonna fail, will be burnt. Thus, who passes (and they sense it) will never care for the other punishment, cuz they have been telling people that the teacher was correct, and other students kept saying that he doesn't exist and all what he said was nothing because it's scripture quoting. After all, you can't blame the ones who succeed for not helping the ones who failed, cuz they tried hard to tell them, and the others should actually not be afraid of getting burnt, they believe they don't, then why do you find it scary?

There is a very strong possibility you are taking an exam made up by humans to keep you thinking the way they think you should think. Again, I don't find it scary. But people who are easily influenced are scared by your type of religious rhetoric.

You think you are safe because you believe in a strict God? And if his rules are not followed, you'll be sent to Hell for eternity? Here is the joke, you could be worshiping the wrong God who has similarly strict rules who is going to send you to Hell for not believing in him.

Of course I'm just making a point, I don't believe there are any real rules that if followed will get you into the "good place" after you die. All following rules proves is that you are a good rule follower. What is in your heart is more important. What you do without the threat of punishment counts more towards your good or bad qualities. I feel that mankind dumbed down our relationship with God to be good or be punished. Could there be ramifications if you are not good? Sure, you might get to live another life and another and another until you get it right. Or you might be relegated to the failed spirits home. But I see no reason why you would not be given endless chances to get it right. Why not?

 

[mhtal3at]

Interesting. There should not be much controversy about murder. Sounds more like rationalization in support of a tactic adopted by radical Muslim extremists. I'm not saying the military has clean hands, but the objectives are not innocent civilians as with suicide bombers.

Not all militaries are like the US Army, they don’t rape women or children, or declare wars to steal other people’s lands or gas, or so on. God said that we cannot declare war unless we have a right that should be recovered and cannot be recovered by negotiations and all other solutions failed.

[FONT=&quot]8. Surat Al-Anfal, Medinan, 75 verses[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](61)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). [/FONT]

I know that you don’t like quoting, but the Muslims abide to it and work to it. If you remember, on the 6th of October 1973, Egypt declared war upon Israel, we attacked Israel, until we recovered our land, and NO soldier was killed after so.

If not the Quran, what is the primary document that holy men use to reference the Muslim religion? Things like God's rules and expectations for man?

How many times do I have to say it? The thing with Islam Is different, Quran was not collected, Quran is a book, was a book, and will be a book.
Quran was never a script nor was a collected. And will remain preserved till Dooms day.

Quran has facts like Suret Yasseeen [FONT=&quot]036.080[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]YUSUFALI:[/FONT] "The same Who produces for you fire out of the green tree, when behold! ye kindle therewith (your own fires)!
[FONT=&quot]PICKTHAL:[/FONT] Who hath appointed for you fire from the green tree, and behold! ye kindle from it.
[FONT=&quot]SHAKIR:[/FONT] He Who has made for you the fire (to burn) from the green tree, so that with it you kindle (fire).
The green fire ( [FONT=&quot]المرخ و العفار) [/FONT]when its branches are rubbed together fire comes out)

And the Green Trees in general after ages and ages they bury under the ground and throughout thousands and thousands of years they turns into Gas, which is used as fuel., thus fire


How about that fact.
And if you want more facts there is also the the fact which is about the earth not being [FONT=&quot]091.006[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]YUSUFALI:[/FONT] By the Earth and its (wide) expanse:
[FONT=&quot]PICKTHAL:[/FONT] And the earth and Him Who spread it,
[FONT=&quot]SHAKIR:[/FONT] And the earth and Him Who extended it

The fact that earth is rounded and has no endings(like a ball, but more of an oval which was mentioned also in another verse)

God swears by the Earth, which means it is a fact, and it is and was proven right years and years after so.






QED


[FONT=&quot]036.081[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]YUSUFALI:[/FONT] "Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like thereof?" - Yea, indeed! for He is the Creator Supreme, of skill and knowledge (infinite)!
[FONT=&quot]PICKTHAL:[/FONT] Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth Able to create the like of them? Aye, that He is! for He is the All-Wise Creator,
[FONT=&quot]SHAKIR:[/FONT] Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like of them? Yea! and He is the Creator (of all), the Knower.

Which brings you back to life after death.

You misunderstand. Not scary to me at all. Scary to religious types like yourself and to those you are trying to influence as to the truth of your religion and the after life punishments it threatens.

Threatens?
Who told you so, bring me one quotation of Islam. Or one Muslim who says he’s threatened by Hell and is not attracted by Heaven.
Hell is always mentioned along with heaven and as 2nd in order
It’s the same as any other policy, attract and threaten.
You really need to read the Quran. You’ll know that it’s not about any prizes in the end. It’s about you appreciation of the creator, he gave you eyes, and brains to think with(even if you think otherwise than he wants you-he doesn’t want you to be threatened or forced that’s why he didn’t make you a believer – he wants you to be convinced)

For what basis to believe there is heaven and hell, and a divine being who can send you there? Again, a book whose origins are based on ancient documents.

It is the Quran
But does it mean that Quran doesn’t prove the existence of God?

A book that has been a book and is and will always be a book and was never in the form of scripts.

Again, as u r trying to get me off point, why do you try to get me off point?
Again, who told you that it doesn’t prove the existence of God?
U seem to like repetition.

Why are you afraid of reading the Quran?
Because you are told so, and that you can’t resist its charm, the charm that has never been distorted by a man
Words that are not man-produced.
Words from a divine source, that can never be proven wrong.
If you think that he doesn’t exist why do you resist
Don’t be a sheep inline and stereotyped
Don’t listen to who say “Stay away of that book!” ?
If you think you can go against the grain and actually read it instead of alleging that Quran doesn’t prove his existence, here’s a translated copy of the Quran.
http://www.islamway.com/SF/quran/data/The_Holy_Quran_English.pdf

There is a very strong possibility you are taking an exam made up by humans to keep you thinking the way they think you should think. Again, I don't find it scary. But people who are easily influenced are scared by your type of religious rhetoric.

Who understands it and knows what Islam really seeks, will never be afraid of Hell, except that it exists, it doesn’t matter to such people because they are not stereotyped
If God wants us to be religious typed so its an honor, but we’re not, in the sense of not thinking, We think
Al Imran
[FONT=&quot]003.190[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]YUSUFALI:[/FONT] Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,-
[FONT=&quot]PICKTHAL:[/FONT] Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth and (in) the difference of night and day are tokens (of His Sovereignty) for men of understanding,
[FONT=&quot]SHAKIR:[/FONT] Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day there are signs for men who understand.

We think and we understand and the sequence of time and the ongoing of days and nights are signs to prove his existence but those who understand

You think you are safe because you believe in a strict God? And if his rules are not followed, you'll be sent to Hell for eternity? Here is the joke, you could be worshiping the wrong God who has similarly strict rules who is going to send you to Hell for not believing in him.

If you read the Quran you would never say so
Just that you don’t say I evade answering
God: the one god, [FONT=&quot]Supreme Being, a supreme being, the supreme being, a or the means 1=one[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]god : means which god? there is plenty of Greek gods who die or get cursed or fall in love, so you mean that Aphrodite will send me to Hell?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is a joke.[/FONT]

Of course I'm just making a point, I don't believe there are any real rules that if followed will get you into the "good place" after you die. All following rules proves is that you are a good rule follower. What is in your heart is more important. What you do without the threat of punishment counts more towards your good or bad qualities. I feel that mankind dumbed down our relationship with God to be good or be punished. Could there be ramifications if you are not good? Sure, you might get to live another life and another and another until you get it right. Or you might be relegated to the failed spirits home. But I see no reason why you would not be given endless chances to get it right. Why not?

That was answered above.

 

[Dana]

make the oil spill go away.

 

[Burntblood]

He proves himself (yeh, he's a dude) everyday when I see my daughter.

 

[Minor Axis]

Not all militaries are like the US Army, they don’t rape women or children, or declare wars to steal other people’s lands or gas, or so on. God said that we cannot declare war unless we have a right that should be recovered and cannot be recovered by negotiations and all other solutions failed.

[FONT=&quot]8. Surat Al-Anfal, Medinan, 75 verses[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](61)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). [/FONT]

I know that you don’t like quoting, but the Muslims abide to it and work to it. If you remember, on the 6th of October 1973, Egypt declared war upon Israel, we attacked Israel, until we recovered our land, and NO soldier was killed after so.

There is absolutely no need to spread out your answers in replies. Keep it tight. Lets talk about suicide bombers. Is targeting innocent people in public places condoned?

How many times do I have to say it? The thing with Islam Is different, Quran was not collected, Quran is a book, was a book, and will be a book.
Quran was never a script nor was a collected. And will remain preserved till Dooms day.

Its just a book, but you are quoting it to try to prove your points. If it does not lay down the basics of your faith what does?

The fact that earth is rounded and has no endings(like a ball, but more of an oval which was mentioned also in another verse)
God swears by the Earth, which means it is a fact, and it is and was proven right years and years after so.

I did not quote all of your quotes, but let me summarize, no proof of God, his feelings for us, his rules, sorry.

Threatens?
Who told you so, bring me one quotation of Islam. Or one Muslim who says he’s threatened by Hell and is not attracted by Heaven.
Hell is always mentioned along with heaven and as 2nd in order
It’s the same as any other policy, attract and threaten.
You really need to read the Quran. You’ll know that it’s not about any prizes in the end. It’s about you appreciation of the creator, he gave you eyes, and brains to think with(even if you think otherwise than he wants you-he doesn’t want you to be threatened or forced that’s why he didn’t make you a believer – he wants you to be convinced)

What does Allah do with those who don't commit? Is it not Hell what awaits those who do not abide? Come join the party! We really want you to think like we think because we don't want to see you burn in Hell. That is the threat overt or implied.

It is the Quran
But does it mean that Quran doesn’t prove the existence of God?

Nope, no proof.

A book that has been a book and is and will always be a book and was never in the form of scripts.

You may have me there, but the Bible is based on ancient writings. And whether it was originally in the form of a script or written as a book is besides the point when it comes to proving anything about God.

Why are you afraid of reading the Quran?
Because you are told so, and that you can’t resist its charm, the charm that has never been distorted by a man
Words that are not man-produced.
Words from a divine source, that can never be proven wrong.
If you think that he doesn’t exist why do you resist
Don’t be a sheep inline and stereotyped
Don’t listen to who say “Stay away of that book!” ?
If you think you can go against the grain and actually read it instead of alleging that Quran doesn’t prove his existence, here’s a translated copy of the Quran.
http://www.islamway.com/SF/quran/data/The_Holy_Quran_English.pdf

Nor can the truth of the words from the Quran be proven at all. I should forget the rest and just focus on this. You are intoxicated by the beauty of the Quran. Fine by me, until you claim you are working with facts. This is a fancy mystical argument which has influenced a great number of people but really means nothing if you rely on any kind of empirical evidence. Lots of wishful thinking going on in most mainstream religions.

When you can prove these words are the word of God I might reconsider my views. Until then, this is your faith, nothing more. And it must be faith, because it can't be proven. IMO, you do a disservice to the intelligence of human beings promoting these ideas as facts. It illustrates a closed mindedness I would want no part of in my spiritual search.

If you read the Quran you would never say so
Just that you don’t say I evade answering
God: the one god, [FONT=&quot]Supreme Being, a supreme being, the supreme being, a or the means 1=one[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]god : means which god? there is plenty of Greek gods who die or get cursed or fall in love, so you mean that Aphrodite will send me to Hell?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is a joke.[/FONT]

No more of a joke than any religion that claims to know the answers regarding mans relationship to God.

 

[Minor Axis]

He proves himself (yeh, he's a dude) everyday when I see my daughter.

Hopefully you feel fortunate that this standard of proof is not used in our court rooms.