How Can God Prove Himself?

[Minor Axis]

God exists, and because of so, he does not need to prove it. He lets mankind choose what they want, God does not control anything that we can choose. Instead, he lets man choose for his own. Thus, be awarded or punished due to what the man has chosen. Eventually, if you choose well, you may go to heaven, if you do not believe in God, why would you bother yourself? You just don't have to worry, and you can let the worrying to other people who believe in him(actually this concern is not very tiring, it very comforting, even the fear you have towards God, it is the kind of good fear, like when you fear to meet the teacher on the exam day, while you believe that you are very special to him.

And your basis for belief in a particular God is based on what prey tell?

It's fine to talk like that about adults but what about all the harm that comes to innocent children? They can't protect themselves... they didn't make any bad choices and don't deserve to be sexually assaulted, murdered or get incurable illness.

If your life was perfect, what would you learn? This life is a challenge that we all get a chance to experience. It is what do you walk away from the experience with, that counts.

Punishments are made first of all to discourage people from doing a sin.
That's the way it is.

Really? That's the basis of becoming a better person? You act good because if you don't you'll be punished? This is one of the primary flaws of those who push religion as taught by man. It's a fatal illogical flaw. That's the way it is.

I know that not of us have their own beliefs, but I have proven mine, and was waiting for you either to tell me you were convinced or not convinced, or convinced but you like your beliefs as they are.

Proving you have beliefs proves nothing other than you are easily influenced.. I say this in the most friendly manner.

 

[mhtal3at]

more bread crumbs....

i'm starting to feel like Johnny Appleseed...


funny thing is...was i hinting to you?...did i intentionally use accept?...hmm if you think about it the fact that we don't necessarily accept what the other believes kinda makes us both infidels in the others eyes...so how should we resolve this?

name calling?...no, mud slinging?...no, my gods dick is bigger than your gods dick?...no,..i don't believe in god so i guess i would be on the side of a non existent eunuch.....spelling contest?...definitely not (I'd lose for sure)....drinking game?....no,....smoke out?....no,... I.Q. test?...no,.....pistol at 10 paces....no,....aww poop.

lets just agree to disagree like two civilized adults....wait...not sure if we can do that either....im more along the lines of an unshaven immature heathen...so i guess you win...i guess i just have to humbly accept my defeat and suffer in the sad, pathetic misery of my dis-belief and wallow in the discomfort of my freedom to choose what is obviously the wrong thing for me, i should change my evil ways..

i know, i could take the lives of innocent people everywhere....dead baby's falling like rain...or maybe i should just stick with sacrificing virgins...yeah...i like that idea, why wait for 72 when i can have them now,

mmmmmm virgins

What sort of stupid psycho told you that this is the way they are 72 virgins, the way westerners get their information is so damn screwed.

Please check your information, they are all inaccurate, how could you allege something that is not true, and take it for granted, just because some demented people want to make a joke out of Islam, I know , those are not atheists, it's just the way they allege to be in order to tell lies about Islam, just Islam, no other religion.
very funny how I got you with your false information.

 

[itsmeJonB]

If Jesus performed street magic like David Blaine then I'd believe in him

 

[mhtal3at]

I understand the concept. It's pretty basic for all religions actually. It still doesn't help the innocent little kids though.

Nor help the innocent Palestinians whose land is deprived, nor Iraq that was stolen Petrol from, and alleged to be having nukes, nor you thinking that God does not exist. You really want to know? You can know if he exists in Doomsday, see ya.

 

[mhtal3at]

If your life was perfect, what would you learn? This life is a challenge that we all get a chance to experience. It is what do you walk away from the experience with, that counts.

What fault have they done to grow up to be atheists, isn't it enough that they have been raped when they were young, they even go to hell after they die.

 

[mhtal3at]

And your basis for belief in a particular God is based on what prey tell?

What is yours?

 

[Minor Axis]

What fault have they done to grow up to be atheists, isn't it enough that they have been raped when they were young, they even go to hell after they die.

You need to clarify what your are trying to say.

What is yours?

I asked you first. Where you born and raised Muslim or are you a convert? What is the basis for your belief?

I was raised as Presbyterian although from childhood, I went a long with the flow, privately refusing to submit to the indoctrination just because adults were telling me what their version of the facts are. The real problem is that there are no facts, regarding God or our religious history. The bedrock of religion as taught by man is based on stories based on ancient scripts that could easily be classified as tall tails. If that is all you need to believe, that is your right. I can't speak for Muslim, but I've been told that Muslim and Christianity have about 85% overlap, so there is a pretty good chance the tall tales are found in the Quran.

I am a spiritual Agnostic. I am not an Athiest. The difference between you and me is that you are convinced by the "official" documents and I am not. The most irritating is when the religious preach and quote their holy books as if they are facts.

You can know if he exists in Doomsday

That goes both ways friend.

 

[Codrus]

What sort of stupid psycho told you that they are 72 virgins, the way westerners get their information is so damn screwed.

Please check your information, they are all inaccurate, how could you allege something that is not true, and take it for granted, just because some demented people want to make a joke out of Islam, I know , those are not atheists, it's just the way they allege to be in order to tell lies about Islam, just Islam, no other religion.
very funny how I got you with your false information.

"It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham 'Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard the Prophet Muhammad PBUH saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a."

Vol. IV, Chapters on "The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah", ch. 21 "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven", hadith 2687​

This concept is also quoted by Ibn Kathir, in his Qur'anic Commentary of Qur'an 55:72 in the Tafsir ibn Kathir. Orthodox Muslim theologians such as al Ghazali (died 1111 CE) and Al-Ash'ari (died 935 CE) have "admitted sensual pleasures into paradise". The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 ), Koranic commentator and polymath.
He wrote:
"Each time we sleep with a Houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [i.e. Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetizing vagina's."

Some Muslims use the 72 Virgins concept to meet certain goals, e.g. as a way to entice other Muslims into carry out heinous activities that may endanger their life. It is most often used to entice suicide bombers, coaxing them that they will die as martyrs and will be rewarded with 72 virgins in paradise. In one event, British Muslim teenage boys were told to train with Kalashnikov rifles and promised 72 virgins in paradise if they died as religious martyrs. It is thought that such enticing methods become the main motivation for poor, depressed and uneducated Muslim youths to become suicide bombers who believe they will spend eternity with 72 Virgins in paradise.


....your right, im way off base...what the hell was i thinking

 

[Guyzerr]

Nor help the innocent Palestinians whose land is deprived, nor Iraq that was stolen Petrol from, and alleged to be having nukes, nor you thinking that God does not exist. You really want to know? You can know if he exists in Doomsday, see ya.

Like all other religious people I have quizzed about the " children issue " you have skirted my question by inserting some other garbage that is totally unrelated. I expected that because there isn't a person on the planet that can justify it and that includes you. I was raised by a very religious mother so I have a grasp as to what your propaganda dictates and that's one of the reasons I fell away from the flock so to speak. Fear mongering works very well on the weak minded.

 

[Guyzerr]

If your life was perfect, what would you learn? This life is a challenge that we all get a chance to experience. It is what do you walk away from the experience with, that counts.

I agree with you as far as adults are concerned but when a child hasn't been given the opportunity to made a " mistake " and someone arbitrarily decides to make it for them I take exception to that rule.

 

[Minor Axis]

I agree with you as far as adults are concerned but when a child hasn't been given the opportunity to made a " mistake " and someone arbitrarily decides to make it for them I take exception to that rule.

We are all children.

 

[Codrus]

We are all children.

especially me ......so nya nya nyanya nya

 

[Minor Axis]

"It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham 'Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard the Prophet Muhammad PBUH saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a."

Vol. IV, Chapters on "The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah", ch. 21 "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven", hadith 2687​

​

The absolute worst example of the corruption of religion by mankind is when a group of religious political activists, who may have legitimate claims to being abused by another religious group, subvert their teachings to talk people who live in poverty into walking into public places and blowing themselves and many innocent people, woman and children up, because they've been told Allah will reward them with the castle and the virgins. Any religion that offers lots and lots of sex in the afterlife is seriously suspect. And even if there were no virgins, commiting murder in the name of religion is as good a reason as any for burning in Hell for eternity. (Not that I believe in Hell. ) Instead, I'd hope Allah would kick their asses from one end of heaven to the other.

especially me ......so nya nya nyanya nya

Goes without saying...

 

[Guyzerr]

We are all children.

I need a " bangs head on the wall smiley " but I'm too lazy to find it. Would you mind doing it for me?

 

[mhtal3at]

I asked you first. Where you born and raised Muslim or are you a convert? What is the basis for your belief?

I was born and raised as a Muslim. The basis for my belief is a strong one.

I was raised as Presbyterian although from childhood, I went a long with the flow, privately refusing to submit to the indoctrination just because adults were telling me what their version of the facts are. The real problem is that there are no facts, regarding God or our religious history. The bedrock of religion as taught by man is based on stories based on ancient scripts that could easily be classified as tall tails. If that is all you need to believe, that is your right. I can't speak for Muslim, but I've been told that Muslim and Christianity have about 85% overlap, so there is a pretty good chance the tall tales are found in the Quran.

The thing with Islam is different, Quran was sent down by Allah=Godto Muhammad(peace Be Upon Him) by Gabriel(PBUH), and was protected and preserved by Allah, it was sent down only about 1430 years ago, just to tell you the accurate date is a long story, it took about 2o years for the Quran to be thoroughly sent down.

If you really are interested in Quran, here's a translated copy of it.


http://www.islamway.com/SF/quran/data/The_Holy_Quran_English.pdf

I am a spiritual Agnostic. I am not an Athiest. The difference between you and me is that you are convinced by the "official" documents and I am not. The most irritating is when the religious preach and quote their holy books as if they are facts.

They are facts, at least Quran is, we know when exactly it was sent down, and what happened
to it, and no one would dare do any sort of Tahrif=Distortion, Besides, Allah promised to protect it.










Now tell me what your thing that convinced you that "all" books were distorted, and that the flow you used to sticking to waswrong and made you a spiritual agnostic!

 

[mhtal3at]

That goes both ways friend.

No, it doesn't.

Subsiding me beliefs, if there were no God, I lost nothing, whether there is another life or not, I am in the safe side , the same as you are.
And if God exists, I win, and go to heaven God willing, and in that case, people who don't believe in God would be in trouble.

SO in both cases, who believes will be on the safe side, and who is not will only be safe in one case.

 

[Roxi]

Will have to admit have enjoyed reading all your responses in this thread... I am not religious at all, raised Roman Catholic but lost my faith a very long time ago due to situations out of my control as a child and in my adult life. Do not get me wrong i would like to believe sometimes it would make me a lot happier in life if i did but i am to logical for that to ever happen unless something was to HAPPEN to prove otherwise.

What i am going to say may cause offense and trust me i do not mean it to do so it is my own personal view, but if there was a god why has he not shown us he is real do you not feel that the world would be a better place if it was fact. I truly believe that if there was evidence of "Ok do wrong you will burn, do right you will be in the grace of heaven" people would maybe better this world. If there is a god why would he make us wonder??? SO we can make our choices and have free will??? To me (please do not take this to offense) its like saying God is a kid with an ant farm, disrupting life with childish behavior for his own amusement. How can god prove he is real.... By actually letting the people who follow him know he is really there. Yes i understand that is what faith is for BUT back to my statement about the ant farm wouldn't life be far less complex if we just KNEW...

Why would he let so many cultures create so many different forms of relgion and watch them distroy each other over it? Why would he devistate countries with natual disasters? Why would there be so many children in pain and suffering at the hands of people who should know better? Why does he let those who worship him die from hunger, starvation, poverty, disease?
Inflict pain to gain belief? Do you not think that slightly narcissistic? To play with others life to prove a point?

The world is going to shit, progressively getting worse as we humanity grows older... And then what the end of the world happens and only those worthy will be granted into heaven. May as well put a No vacancy sign on the front gate and call it a day if its really over crowded that there is a need to play favoritism over many. If there is a god i would think he would show himself by now cause no living being could stand watching the world in so much pain from the actions that he himself has created by letting the things that have happen happen. Now i am not saying that we need to live in Utopia but honestly to have the knowledge that if you do this you will go to hell i truly believe would stir a far better outcome for us all in the very end.

Like i said i mean no offense just my 2 cents.

 

[mhtal3at]

"It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham 'Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard the Prophet Muhammad PBUH saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a."

Vol. IV, Chapters on "The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah", ch. 21 "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven", hadith 2687​

This concept is also quoted by Ibn Kathir, in his Qur'anic Commentary of Qur'an 55:72 in the Tafsir ibn Kathir. Orthodox Muslim theologians such as al Ghazali (died 1111 CE) and Al-Ash'ari (died 935 CE) have "admitted sensual pleasures into paradise". The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 ), Koranic commentator and polymath.
He wrote:
"Each time we sleep with a Houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [i.e. Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetizing vagina's."

Some Muslims use the 72 Virgins concept to meet certain goals, e.g. as a way to entice other Muslims into carry out heinous activities that may endanger their life. It is most often used to entice suicide bombers, coaxing them that they will die as martyrs and will be rewarded with 72 virgins in paradise. In one event, British Muslim teenage boys were told to train with Kalashnikov rifles and promised 72 virgins in paradise if they died as religious martyrs. It is thought that such enticing methods become the main motivation for poor, depressed and uneducated Muslim youths to become suicide bombers who believe they will spend eternity with 72 Virgins in paradise.


....your right, im way off base...what the hell was i thinking

Nice research by the way.

All these quotations were true, and well translated, but Houri does not mean virgin, although they are, but Houri means the maiden of Heaven . And who dies for the sake of Allah, or country or religion, or defending one of the helpless people, or when you go to war and die is a Shaheed=Martyr, and will, God willing, get those 72 Houri after he dies. But it's not really about them it's about the cause you are standing beside. So, the real motive is not the 72 virgins, so one does not think about "virgin virgin virgin , etc 72 times" and say " I wanna die as a Martyr "die die die"

Muslims believe that there are other aspects of life that are of no less importance than dying as a Martyr

You have to study well, work hard, be honest, they can get to to heaven.

And the Concept of Martyr does not only apply to the ones who die for the sake of God, but also the ones who die as follows "The one who is killed for the sake of God, And The stabbed one, and the drowned one, and the one who is infected with pleurisy, and the one who dies with some sort of disease that affects the belly area is also a Martyr, and the one who died burning, and who dies under ruins, and the woman who dies having sex with her husband is also a martyr."

So, BTW I am a teenager and I am 17 years old, and I know that I don't have to be a Martyr to get the 72 Houri, actually, for any Muslim, it's about heaven not only the 72 Houri, and it's not about the virginity of them.

So, ones who believe in God won't go for death in order to be Martyrs, God already gave us options, and to be good at your life, that is what a Muslim is, which is an honor enough for me, and going to Heaven is where I should go, by not lying, not stealing, not doing adultery, nor drink bear.
And even if you did, you can also return back to the right track and have your chance of going to heaven.

 

[mhtal3at]

Like all other religious people I have quizzed about the " children issue " you have skirted my question by inserting some other garbage that is totally unrelated. I expected that because there isn't a person on the planet that can justify it and that includes you. I was raised by a very religious mother so I have a grasp as to what your propaganda dictates and that's one of the reasons I fell away from the flock so to speak. Fear mongering works very well on the weak minded.

Weak minded?
How about Einstein?
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1173194823083

 

[mhtal3at]

Will have to admit have enjoyed reading all your responses in this thread... I am not religious at all, raised Roman Catholic but lost my faith a very long time ago due to situations out of my control as a child and in my adult life. Do not get me wrong i would like to believe sometimes it would make me a lot happier in life if i did but i am to logical for that to ever happen unless something was to HAPPEN to prove otherwise.

What i am going to say may cause offense and trust me i do not mean it to do so it is my own personal view, but if there was a god why has he not shown us he is real do you not feel that the world would be a better place if it was fact. I truly believe that if there was evidence of "Ok do wrong you will burn, do right you will be in the grace of heaven" people would maybe better this world. If there is a god why would he make us wonder??? SO we can make our choices and have free will??? To me (please do not take this to offense) its like saying God is a kid with an ant farm, disrupting life with childish behavior for his own amusement. How can god prove he is real.... By actually letting the people who follow him know he is really there. Yes i understand that is what faith is for BUT back to my statement about the ant farm wouldn't life be far less complex if we just KNEW...

Why would he let so many cultures create so many different forms of relgion and watch them distroy each other over it? Why would he devistate countries with natual disasters? Why would there be so many children in pain and suffering at the hands of people who should know better? Why does he let those who worship him die from hunger, starvation, poverty, disease?
Inflict pain to gain belief? Do you not think that slightly narcissistic? To play with others life to prove a point?

The world is going to shit, progressively getting worse as we humanity grows older... And then what the end of the world happens and only those worthy will be granted into heaven. May as well put a No vacancy sign on the front gate and call it a day if its really over crowded that there is a need to play favoritism over many. If there is a god i would think he would show himself by now cause no living being could stand watching the world in so much pain from the actions that he himself has created by letting the things that have happen happen. Now i am not saying that we need to live in Utopia but honestly to have the knowledge that if you do this you will go to hell i truly believe would stir a far better outcome for us all in the very end.

Like i said i mean no offense just my 2 cents.

He's God, and whether you believe in him or not, he's the one who created you, and the one to see you in the Judgment Day.