Gun News Talk

[Accountable]

flows against the truth

What does that phrase mean?

 

[Accountable]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QxpK-mrC1E&feature=share

I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with Bill Maher. He's still a dick, though.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

What does that phrase mean?

I don't see any point to splitting hairs In an attempt to avoid the obvious.Pointing to one smalltown incident in 200 years across millions of people is quite frankly a pathetic attempt at validating your position. On the one hand the gun nuts point to 8000 needless deaths and claim that it's an acceptable statistic based on the number of guns and should be more or less ignored....but on the other, someone dredges up a solitary case where armed citizens have challenge the lowest level of government because of suspected irregularities and expect me to accept it as some kind of validation for an obsolete statute?

Get real.

 

[Accountable]

I don't see any point to splitting hairs In an attempt to avoid the obvious.Pointing to one smalltown incident in 200 years across millions of people is quite frankly a pathetic attempt at validating your position. On the one hand the gun nuts point to 8000 needless deaths and claim that it's an acceptable statistic based on the number of guns and should be more or less ignored....but on the other, someone dredges up a solitary case where armed citizens have challenge the lowest level of government because of suspected irregularities and expect me to accept it as some kind of validation for an obsolete statute?

Get real.

It's absolutely validation. It's a perfect example of the proper use of the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment of the US Constitution in the context of, and the purpose for, its inclusion in our Constitution. You don't have to like it. The Second Amendment wasn't included so that Americans could defend themselves and their homes against burglars. It wasn't included for people to go sport hunting or shooting clay pigeons & tin cans. The Second Amendment guarantees our right to have the means to defend ourselves against tyranny. This is exactly what the good people of Athens did.

But again, in the interest of my understanding you, what does the phrase "flows against the truth" mean? I'm not familiar with it, and I like to learn new turns of phrase. If you think it might derail the thread, then please PM your response.

 

[Stone]

Refresh my memory, Accountable......who is the member in another thread arguing to repeal the Second Amendment?

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

It's absolutely validation. It's a perfect example of the proper use of the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment of the US Constitution in the context of, and the purpose for, its inclusion in our Constitution. You don't have to like it. The Second Amendment wasn't included so that Americans could defend themselves and their homes against burglars. It wasn't included for people to go sport hunting or shooting clay pigeons & tin cans. The Second Amendment guarantees our right to have the means to defend ourselves against tyranny. This is exactly what the good people of Athens did.

But again, in the interest of my understanding you, what does the phrase "flows against the truth" mean? I'm not familiar with it, and I like to learn new turns of phrase. If you think it might derail the thread, then please PM your response.

And again, this is where we disagree. I'm sure that there have been many cases of petty corruption among local government officials ['tyranny' would be stretching it more than just a little bit] that have been successfully prosecuted by the American legal system without resorting to the constitutional sledgehammer of the Second Amendment.It's overkill though, and a little bit Hollywood Wild West [we're gunna run the Sherriff an' his evil henchmen outta town *cue dramatic music*] ​One incident in 200 years where the Second Amendment was invoked ,with excessive zeal, does not prove that it's a practical and useful application. Like the 50's and 60's fad of building nuclear fallout shelters, it was a product of its time that has proven to be obsolete.

I'm glad you understand that The Second Amendment wasn't included so that Americans could defend themselves and their homes against burglars. It wasn't included for people to go sport hunting or shooting clay pigeons & tin cans. Far too many vigilantes and survivalists don't seem to be smart enough to know the difference. I've even seen it invoked in the Zimmerman case.

In any argument, there will always be the exception that proves the rule, a case which can be used in the very broadest tense to justify a very narrow position. a case that can be successfully argued if tunnel vision is applied, and if all other similar circumstances that were resolved successfully using other means were ignored.

Take , for example, the notion that a truck driver has a strong dislike for motorists who speed. He sees a fast-moving car approaching from the rear of his rig. He knows that the motorist is breaking the law, but there's a cop sitting on the roadside just ahead. The truck and the motorist pass the cop, who is looking the other way at the time and doesn't see the speeding car. Enraged, the truck driver pulls out his pistol, and shoots out the rear tire of the car as it passes. The car swerves, leaves the road, hits a signpost and is totalled.

It is possible to line up some facts to create a tunnel-vision justification that the car was speeding, the cop did nothing, and the truck driver ensured that the motorist stopped speeding. However, given that many thousands of speeding motorists get safely and effectively stopped from speeding every year by other means, the fact that the truck driver was able to impose a radical vigilante solution to what he perceived as a problem is not adequate justification for all truck drivers to carry guns for the purpose of dealing with speed law violators.

Such is the case with the Athens incident. in truth the means created an end.Butdid the means justify the end, and can a single vigilante action be used to justify the Second Amendment when in truth,the =Second Amendment can barely be used to justify the vigilantes?

 

[Joe the meek]

Had to laugh.

Read the other day in a national newspaper article that they were looking at banning high capacity ammunition.

As well as I know guns, I have no clue what "high capacity ammunition" is.

I wish these *ucktards who write this crap knew what they were talking about.

On a sidenote, after reading an online article on how strict Japan is on gun laws, doing a little looking around, I found this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre

Then I came across this news item...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/die-shootings-bloody-chicago-day-18326354

Please keep in mind Chicago has some of the toughest gun crime laws in the United States. Heck, anytime I use to drive out west to hunt and had to go through Chicago, I made sure it was around 3am to avoid ANY hassel lol

 

[Minor Axis]

It's absolutely validation. It's a perfect example of the proper use of the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment of the US Constitution in the context of, and the purpose for, its inclusion in our Constitution. You don't have to like it. The Second Amendment wasn't included so that Americans could defend themselves and their homes against burglars. It wasn't included for people to go sport hunting or shooting clay pigeons & tin cans. The Second Amendment guarantees our right to have the means to defend ourselves against tyranny. This is exactly what the good people of Athens did.

But again, in the interest of my understanding you, what does the phrase "flows against the truth" mean? I'm not familiar with it, and I like to learn new turns of phrase. If you think it might derail the thread, then please PM your response.

If the Second Amendment had said the right to drive cars shall not be infringed, would you be in this forum arguing against auto registration, driver licensing, testing, speed limits, and other auto related restrictions? And this is for machines whose primary purpose is not killing people.

 

[Accountable]

If the Second Amendment had said the right to drive cars shall not be infringed, would you be in this forum arguing against auto registration, driver licensing, testing, speed limits, and other auto related restrictions?

Yes, of course. Don't roll your eyes. It was your asinine question.

 

[Alien Allen]

Several years ago we had an issue regarding the use of certain products that were to be NSF certified. The code was adopted in the early 80's and NSF had changed the standards since then. It was ruled the products today did not have to meet current NSF standards but just the ones in place at the time in the 80's. This was an AG ruling and never went to court.

Given the above I wonder if the definition of arms in the 2nd amendment could be used as those arms available at the time of the amendment. I am guessing over the years though there have been some SC rulings that defined what a arms are?

 

[Accountable]

Several years ago we had an issue regarding the use of certain products that were to be NSF certified. The code was adopted in the early 80's and NSF had changed the standards since then. It was ruled the products today did not have to meet current NSF standards but just the ones in place at the time in the 80's. This was an AG ruling and never went to court.

Given the above I wonder if the definition of arms in the 2nd amendment could be used as those arms available at the time of the amendment. I am guessing over the years though there have been some SC rulings that defined what a arms are?

To me, it comes down to the reason the Amendment was written, which was to ward against a federal gov't becoming too powerful, tyrannical. At the time of the writing, the people only had muskets and swords, that's true, but that's all the government had, too.

 

[Joe the meek]

Several years ago we had an issue regarding the use of certain products that were to be NSF certified. The code was adopted in the early 80's and NSF had changed the standards since then. It was ruled the products today did not have to meet current NSF standards but just the ones in place at the time in the 80's. This was an AG ruling and never went to court.

Given the above I wonder if the definition of arms in the 2nd amendment could be used as those arms available at the time of the amendment. I am guessing over the years though there have been some SC rulings that defined what a arms are?

I can always see the "technological progress" viewpoint in why certain guns should not be allowed in civilian hands, because when the founding fathers wrote the second amendment, they didn't have guns with high capacity magazines available. I'm certain they had nut jobs back in the late 1700's who might of grabbed a single shot rifle and took someone out, but it was usually "one and done" as they wouldn't have time to reload.

However, I sincerely believe the founding fathers realized that given time, the government could abuse their powers and force it's own will on it's people by force. Long story short, I believe when our country was founded (particularly by using force with firearms to fight the British), our founding fathers, for better or worse, wanted to give the civilian population the right to keep guns to keep their government in check.

 

[Francis]

Huh??

Sorry I was in a rush and it was a busy week..

That should have said "There you go again" but there "re" was missing..

Did I state otherwise?

No I was just extremely clear.

Are you talking about a concealed permit or just for keeping at home?
Are you inferring that a ton of Americans walk around in public with legally owned hand guns? If so that is not the case. Sure there are some that have concealed permits. But there are also areas where is is tough to get one.

Seeing I was referencing Canada, in most cases one would not just get a handgun here without a concealed permit to go with it.. Seems pointless.

you cited the Wiki article which references semi auto handguns. Are you including those or are they legal to purchase with a permit?

No I used it just to reference Semi Automatic weapons period. When I looked there was very little information in the Semi Automatic topics of the others so i used this one.

Not all places are like Texas where it is easy to buy a handgun. My two hand guns I had to get permits which included getting finger printed and approval to purchase.

I guess one could see that as part of the problem. Once again, referring to our country we centralize this Federally so regulations are equally the same across the country.. God forbid one of our States ( Provinces ) have more gunpower than another :ninja

 

[Francis]

Most folks don't know of the billions of our tax dollars being spent to develop the computerized systems whose goal is to track us in a multitude of ways. Between that and the absolute curtailment of communications that was tested last year they are definitely in a position of control over the minions. A gun grab will allow the total control that many fools can't see developing.

You have much more to worry about from corporations like BestBuy, Walmart and Costco who do Analytics on you and buy off the Government and tie their hands than you do from the government itself.. Through the software, monitoring and intercompany cooperation all these companies have far more greater power over you and we are at their mercy with no recourse than to depend on the very few and far apart politicians to assist us.

 

[Dana]

these disarmament issues that are being propped up again and again by second amendment enthusiasts only clouds the deeper rooted issues within our system. Certain alternative media outlets want everyone to cry wolf on gun control and not pay attention or give two shits about the corruption, squandering, and fraud going on. This is the real downfall of our country. I'm not disillusioned. I'm not saying there is no agenda at play and these so called shootings don't add up and the cover ups aren't real; i just think a lot of people are up in arms about the little picture. Believe me i hear the conspiracies weekly and on a regular basis. Everyone's worried about their gun but whose worried about begging on the street corner or having to forage for their own food?​

ijs....

 

[Jackass master]

You have much more to worry about from corporations like BestBuy, Walmart and Costco who do Analytics on you and buy off the Government and tie their hands than you do from the government itself.. Through the software, monitoring and intercompany cooperation all these companies have far more greater power over you and we are at their mercy with no recourse than to depend on the very few and far apart politicians to assist us.

OMG! Do you really believe Walmart is a greater fear than the ATF? While it is true they all collect the data you allow them to that is a common business tactic these days. The government has shown how untruthful and ruthless they can be when going after citizens. They think they can run over our rights because we have dropped the ball these past 20 years and let them pass ever more intrusive laws giving power that should never have been allowed to the CIC.

 

[Alien Allen]

OMG! Do you really believe Walmart is a greater fear than the ATF? While it is true they all collect the data you allow them to that is a common business tactic these days. The government has shown how untruthful and ruthless they can be when going after citizens. They think they can run over our rights because we have dropped the ball these past 20 years and let them pass ever more intrusive laws giving power that should never have been allowed to the CIC.

I agree with you

Don't dismiss the stuff being tracked on the internet though. Which most do not know how to avoid. There is one member here who is really well versed on that and has protective programs I never heard of.

 

[Minor Axis]

Yes, of course. Don't roll your eyes. It was your asinine question.

So if the 2nd Amendment concerned automobiles would you be arguing that it be amended, modernized or that the Founding Fathers should not be questioned and it should be left alone?

 

[Accountable]

So if the 2nd Amendment concerned automobiles would you be arguing that it be amended, modernized or that the Founding Fathers should not be questioned and it should be left alone?

I don't argue that about the actual 2nd Amendment. Why would I argue it about your fictional one?

 

[Minor Axis]

Neil Heslin, Father Of Newtown Victim, Heckled By Pro-Gun Activists

Neil Heslin, the father of a 6-year-old boy who was slain in the Sandy Hook massacre in Newtown, Conn., on Dec. 14, stoically faced down pro-gun activists last night.

More than 1,000 people attended a hearing before the Gun Violence Prevention Working Group at the Legislative Office Building in Hartford on Monday to share their views on gun control, USA Today reported. Among them was Heslin, who held a large framed picture of himself and his son Jesse as he urged officials to consider strengthening gun laws in Connecticut.
But as he gave his emotional testimony, pleading with lawmakers to improve mental health options and to ban assault weapons like the one Adam Lanza used to murder his child and 25 other people, his speech was interrupted by dozens of audience members, The Connecticut Post reported.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/29/neil-heslin-father-of-newtown-victim-heckled_n_2572503.html