Good Without Gods

[Joe the meek]

What, you mean apart from all the thousands and thousands of non religious charities?

Who do you know personally, and how much do they give of themselves each year?

As far as charities go, I always look at the salaries of those running the charity and how much money actually goes to it's intended purpose other than "overhead" costs. I also hold the church I attend to the same standards.

 

[Panacea]

Get them before the act and send em to God and let Him sort them out.

What? lol

 

[Peter Parka]

Who do you know personally, and how much do they give of themselves each year?

As far as charities go, I always look at the salaries of those running the charity and how much money actually goes to it's intended purpose other than "overhead" costs. I also hold the church I attend to the same standards.

How many people do you know who are open about the amount they give to charity? It's not exactly the sort of thing people talk about. But last time I did a charity event, out of the 20 or so people who sponsered me, only 1 of them believes in god (and yes, I hang around with about as many god believers as aethiests). Guess that debunks your theory about those charitable Christians and those selfish aethiests, lol!

 

[Joe the meek]

How many people do you know who are open about the amount they give to charity? It's not exactly the sort of thing people talk about. But last time I did a charity event, out of the 20 or so people who sponsered me, only 1 of them believes in god (and yes, I hang around with about as many god believers as aethiests). Guess that debunks your theory about those charitable Christians and those selfish aethiests, lol!

Dude, most people will give you money for a "charity event" just to get you out of their hair:24:

Giving money in most cases is nothing more than a "quick feel good" fix for some.

I'm talking about actually trying to make a difference.

What have YOU done yourself other than some charity walk to help those less fortunate than yourself?

Ever work in a soup kitchen or homeless shelter? Ever donate time at a nursing home to help those who feel lonely? Ever volunteer more than 40 hours a year of YOUR OWN TIME to an organization? Ever work with the illiterate to help them read and write? Tell me what YOU have done.

I know, who has the time?

No, I'm not looking to see who can do more, but to get an idea of what kind of time people put in to help others that may not believe in any kind of higher power.

 

[Peter Parka]

Dude, most people will give you money for a "charity event" just to get you out of their hair:24:

Giving money in most cases is nothing more than a "quick feel good" fix for some.

I'm talking about actually trying to make a difference.

What have YOU done yourself other than some charity walk to help those less fortunate than yourself?

Ever work in a soup kitchen? Ever donate time at a nursing home to help those who feel lonely? Ever volunteer more than 40 hours a year of YOUR OWN TIME to an organization? Tell me what YOU have done.

No, I'm not looking to see who can do more, but to get an idea of what kind of time people put in to help others that may not believe in any kind of higher power.

I have done plenty but then I dont feel the need to boast about what I do as I'm not doing it to try and look good. I do what I do solely to help. Guess maybe that's the difference I was talking about between charitable religeous people and charitable aethiest people.

 

[Joe the meek]

I have done plenty but then I dont feel the need to boast about what I do as I'm not doing it to try and look good. I do what I do solely to help. Guess maybe that's the difference I was talking about between charitable religeous people and charitable aethiest people.

All am asking for is one example.

I don't look at it as boasting, but as giving an answer to someone who is genuinely curious.

You don't believe in a God, yet you do good. So tell me, how much time do you give a year on your own dime (meaning at no charge) "doing good"?

Yes, you can go through life not killing or harming anyone, and perhaps give a buck here and there, and perhaps that's doing good, but that's not actually trying to make a difference IMO.

For myself, when I was young and didn't have a belief system of some sort, I was a self centered son of a bitch who didn't give a rats ass about anyone. For the most part, you could say I was not a real nice person LOL

 

[Panacea]

That was your experience, I help people all the time when I see an opportunity and I think god is as silly as a squirrel with tits.

I donate dollars when I'm at the store and asked to support a cause, I open doors for people, pick things up when someone drops something, donate my clothes and items to local shelters, I plan to give to charity more when I am financially able.

I'm guessing based on your fishing/angle setup you plan to insinuate it's not enough or would be better if I worshiped a god, but I will disagree. I generally want to help people out and see people have a better life, myself included of course.

 

[BornReady]

The idea that people need a god to tell them right from wrong is demeaning to humanity. What makes a god a better moral authority than humans? If the bible and quran are representative of divine morality then I'm not impressed.

 

[Minor Axis]

Eh...*waves hand side to side*
I am the Lord your God (next)
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife (who gives a shit, next)

hehe

Your neighbor's girlfriend, daughter, and son, have the covet go-ahead.

Anyway you cut it, for the time it was written, the 10 commandments are a wonderful blueprint for morals.

What part?

There were already, and had been for hundreds of years, laws against murder and theft. And a great social stigma attached to adultery.
As for most of the other commandments, they are only to further monotheistic superiority.

Joe, good rules to live by does not mean they have divine origin. Every so often humans have good ideas. Just don't say all good ideas have to come from God.

Shame Christians blatently disobey it, especially the bit about not making idols. Have you seen the inside of a church lately? lol!

Good one. Idols are fine if they are for your God, promoted by your religion. All the other idols are false idols.

 

[Pet Sounds]

Predictable and lazy argument. Is/ought problem destroyed by Hume centuries ago.

 

[Pet Sounds]

The idea that people need a god to tell them right from wrong is demeaning to humanity. What makes a god a better moral authority than humans? If the bible and quran are representative of divine morality then I'm not impressed.

Humans do need police, government...basically violence to keep them in line. Any where these systems are not in place, "morality" is lacking. Man needs a big brother looking over him to keep him in line. Whether it be government, religion, whatever....the fact that you find it demeaning is irrelevant. It is true. As a founding father famously said, "If men were angels, there would be no need for government." Men are not angels. And anywherre law and order breaks down, humanity breaks down. Anarchy is dangerous, impractical, and self-defeating.

 

[BornReady]

Whether it be government, religion, whatever....the fact that you find it demeaning is irrelevant.

lol You talk like government is divine. Humans made government and humans can determine right from wrong. We don't need gods to tell us right from wrong. If you need a god to tell you right from wrong then I consider you demeaned. That's fine if you don't care.

 

[Pet Sounds]

lol You talk like government is divine. Humans made government and humans can determine right from wrong. We don't need gods to tell us right from wrong. If you need a god to tell you right from wrong then I consider you demeaned. That's fine if you don't care.

I never said the government was divine, I was humans need a larger power to keep it in line. And every government has the same first commandment as the bible. "We are your only law." Try overthrow the system and see what happens. They won't even share power with you. Try your own upstart and see what happens. At most they will make you work within THEIR system. Try to to outside that system and see what happens.

If you need a government with a standing army and police force with prison system to stay in line, you are demeaned. If humans can tell right from wrong on their own then why do we need a government/police/prision? Because they can't. They are only being forced by the institutions I mentioned.

 

[Joe the meek]

I donate dollars when I'm at the store and asked to support a cause, I open doors for people, pick things up when someone drops something, donate my clothes and items to local shelters, I plan to give to charity more when I am financially able.

I'm guessing based on your fishing/angle setup you plan to insinuate it's not enough or would be better if I worshiped a god, but I will disagree. I generally want to help people out and see people have a better life, myself included of course.

No, what I find funny was even when I was self centered son of a bitch, I did "good deeds" just as you listed. For the most part, they are quick and easy and don't require a lot of time, not that there is anything wrong with that.

You see, Mr. Parka here brought the subject up.

So, I asked Mr. Parka what HE has done to try and make this a better planet since apparently he doesn't believe in a God, and guess what? Get I a chicken ^&*% response.

From personal experience since finding some kind of faith myself, what I have noticed is that most people who take time (days) out of their schedule and either travel great distances or offer their professional services to try to help others, those people usually have some sort of faith as well. Yes, for better or worse in some opinions, some do try to spread the word of their God in doing so, but they will still act if their word is received or not.

That said, I live in the Baptist south, so yes, I'm used to people telling me that I'm going to hell:24:

 

[Joe the meek]

Joe, good rules to live by does not mean they have divine origin. Every so often humans have good ideas. Just don't say all good ideas have to come from God.

I agree completely.

I also realize that there are people who do "good deeds" that don't have a faith of some sort, but in the last decade or so, I have noticed that they are probably the minority, and not the majority. Yes, you will always have good "causes" that people believe in, but that is usually because they have an interest in the cause at hand.

I also realize that religion as been used for war and destruction, as well as political gains. By the same token, anytime you have a system based on some sort of faith or "code of conduct", people being people, some will always look for an angle for personal or political gain (the Japanese with Bushido for example).

 

[Peter Parka]

So, I asked Mr. Parka what HE has done to try and make this a better planet since apparently he doesn't believe in a God, and guess what? Get I a chicken ^&*% response.

No, you are just misrepresenting my answer because you cant hack the fact there are unselfish people who dont believe in god. I do what I do because I want to help. I dont feel the need to boast about it. I'm not looking for any recognision.

 

[Joe the meek]

The idea that people need a god to tell them right from wrong is demeaning to humanity. What makes a god a better moral authority than humans? If the bible and quran are representative of divine morality then I'm not impressed.

I could be wrong, but humanity doesn't exactly have a great track record. Yes, as mentioned, I'm aware of the fact that man has used religion in the conquest of others.

 

[Joe the meek]

No, you are just misrepresenting my answer because you cant hack the fact there are unselfish people who dont believe in god. I do what I do because I want to help. I dont feel the need to boast about it. I'm not looking for any recognision.

I'm not asking you to boast about anything. I'm asking what you have done in the last year to help others and how much time did it take out of your schedule to do it?

You brought this subject up, so I'm asking you what have YOU done.

To some extent, the way I see it, this is kind of like your AA thread where you don't have a drinking problem, but you went to four different groups (none of which you liked) and you keep bringing up references of drinking in your personal life.

Oh, I'm fully aware of the fact that there are unselfish people who don't believe in a higher power of some sort, my only point is generally speaking, those who don't have some kind of faith don't go out of their way and donate their own time and money to help others on a regular basis.

Charity walks are nice, but they are quick and easy.

People for the most part take the easy way from my own personal experiences.

Could be argued that if you give a homeless man a 5 spot are you really helping him if he only uses it to drink?

 

[Peter Parka]

The fact that you honestly cant understand why I dont want to talk about good deeds I have done says more about your motivation for doing good than it does about me. What would it prove if I've done fuck all good, anyway? I'm just one person. Would hardly prove your point that religious people do far more good than aethiests. Have you got anything else to bring to the table? I just ask because so far, all you have to back up your point is the "that's how I see it" ineffective arguement.
Nice diversary tactic there too, trying to go off the point and waffle on about my drinking because you cant argue effectively against my point.

 

[Joe the meek]

What would it prove if I've done fuck all good, anyway? I'm just one person.

The analogy which I find is true is that sometimes trying help is like being in the middle of the ocean in a rowboat trying to empty the sea with a tea spoon. It's never ending and it feels like you haven't accomplished anything.

I don't want you to talk about your "good deeds", but I'd like to know what you have done. YOU are the one who brought this topic up, not I.

What I've found is it seems that people who bring this argument on the table (about having to believe in a God of some sort to actually go out and do good in this world) is that those same people who bring the topic up don't really do much other than their immediate surroundings which don't require a lot of time nor effort. Heck, I was a hard drinking SOB womanizer when I helped that one old lady shoveling her sidewalk in the snow when I jumped out of my work truck (during my working hours) to help her. I can assure you, even though I did a good deed, I wasn't a good person

I can honestly say that the majority, if not all the medical groups I know of that go overseas to help those in need usually have some sort of faith (this comment excludes paid professionals). All those who I have personally worked with who donate their time have some kind of faith as well.

Funny enough, the neurosurgeon who I had mentioned in the past who had a faith told my wife that if her HMO doesn't cover the complete cost of her surgery, not to worry about it, that his office would take care of the difference. Most neurosurgeons that I have met are pretty much higher than tho (sp?) pricks because they're so smart and have the bedside manners of a prick as well. From my own experience, not this man. Was it because he had faith or just because he was a nice man? I don't know.

I realize we could argue what is more effective, working hard and sending a check for a couple of grand for a cause, or donating your time. Personally, I've found it to be both. That said, I don't think I can ever recall telling someone that they have to accept God to accept my help.