Good Without Gods

[MjaneGibson]

First, I want to say that was one of the most well explained explanations of morality that has been shared with me. It is too often that religion is used in the blame and reasons behind what we do. Thanks so much for sharing this with us.

 

[Niamh]

No Peter, just making an observation. You're the one who makes the comments about drinking, not I.

Chicken s*&% that you can't, or won't answer one simple question.

Niamh at least answered the question, I can respect that about him as a man.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Niamh at least answered the question, I can respect that about him as a man.

Hmmmm....Is there something you need to confess Niamh?

 

[Niamh]

Hmmmm....Is there something you need to confess Niamh?

well, you know that film the crying game?.....................

 

[Joe the meek]

Hmmmm....Is there something you need to confess Niamh?

Ok, just tool a look at the personal info

She's too good looking to of had a sex change operation (no offense to anyone who has had a sex change operation).

 

[Peter Parka]

No Peter, just making an observation. You're the one who makes the comments about drinking, not I.

Chicken s*&% that you can't, or won't answer one simple question.

Niamh at least answered the question, I can respect that about him as a man.

I've already told you why I wont answer your question and the fact that you just cannot understand or respect that shows that you don't do charity out of the goodness of your heart. I notice you STILL can't explain your contradiction.

 

[BornReady]

If you need a government with a standing army and police force with prison system to stay in line, you are demeaned.

I haven't commented about whether people need a police force or justice system. I have only said humans are capable of making moral codes without the help of a god. If you don't disagree with that statement then I have no idea why you're disagreeing with me.

DD's belief that humans are incapable of creating moral codes and need a god to tell them right from wrong is unproven and demeaning to humans. The need for government is irrelevant unless you think government is divine.

 

[Joe the meek]

I've already told you why I wont answer your question and the fact that you just cannot understand or respect that shows that you don't do charity out of the goodness of your heart. I notice you STILL can't explain your contradiction.

No Peter, I understand the concept of doing good and not needing to talk about it to others.

I might of missed it, but where is my contradiction? About stating what you did as compared to talking about it?

If one were to try and gather data to examine what people do and why they do it (people who volunteer time who have a faith of some sort as compared to those who volunteer that don't have any type of faith), how do YOU suggest you gather that data?

All I'm asking for is how many hours you donate a week/year and for what cause? It's not a question of who can do more, but a question of what you do.

 

[Peter Parka]

I might of missed it, but where is my contradiction? About stating what you did as compared to talking about it?.

Are you fucking kidding me? I quoted it and you replied saying you would explain it later. That was yesterday. Your memory is truly shocking but even so, it really isn't hard to scroll back a couple of pages to find it.

 

[Joe the meek]

Are you fucking kidding me? I quoted it and you replied saying you would explain it later. That was yesterday. Your memory is truly shocking but even so, it really isn't hard to scroll back a couple of pages to find it.

I might of missed it, but you never answered what you have personally done.

Around post #93 I answered your question about what, IMO the difference is between talking about something and stating it.

At least Niamh took the time to give me a glimpse of what and why she has done. That's one reason why I can respect HER

Dude, no reason to respond, no reason for us to keep going back and forth on this because apparently you are never going to answer.

I've got to admit, you'd give Dargo a run for his money.

Perhaps if I interviewed you for a job and asked you how long your were employed at your previous position you'd tell me you don't want to talk about it:24:

Sorry, have to find some humor in this merry go round with you.

 

[BornReady]

What would be an interesting study is looking at the correlation between those serving prison sentences and what kind of faith in any religion they have.

Most prison inmates in the USA are Christians. But that doesn't mean much because most people in the USA are Christians. And some of the inmates may only pretend to be Christians because of the religious bigotry of parole boards.

As a group Christians are not more moral than others. In fact, studies indicate that more secular countries tend to have lower rates of crime. According to some studies the correlation between belief in God and antisocial behavior is strong enough to suspect religious belief does more harm than good.

 

[Peter Parka]

I might of missed it, but you never answered what you have personally done.

Around post #93 I answered your question about what, IMO the difference is between talking about something and stating it.

At least Niamh took the time to give me a glimpse of what and why she has done. That's one reason why I can respect HER

Dude, no reason to respond, no reason for us to keep going back and forth on this because apparently you are never going to answer.

I've got to admit, you'd give Dargo a run for his money.

Perhaps if I interviewed you for a job and asked you how long your were employed at your previous position you'd tell me you don't want to talk about it:24:

Sorry, have to find some humor in this merry go round with you.

:horse:horse:horse

Get back to me when you are prepared to answer my question about your contradiction instead of going over and over and over the same stuff which has already been answered, ok?

 

[Joe the meek]

:horse:horse:horse

Get back to me when you are prepared to answer my question about your contradiction instead of going over and over and over the same stuff which has already been answered, ok?

Dude, you won't answer the question. You're correct, YOU'RE beating a dead horse.

No, I didn't forget about your charity walk. However, usually people have an interest in them due to the fact they have affected their immediate family in some way.

No nothing wrong with that. As others have mentioned, there's only so much time in a day to juggle around. Most people, given the choice between a week of vacation or a week of helping others will chose the vacation.

 

[Joe the meek]

Most prison inmates in the USA are Christians. But that doesn't mean much because most people in the USA are Christians. And some of the inmates may only pretend to be Christians because of the religious bigotry of parole boards.

As a group Christians are not more moral than others. In fact, studies indicate that more secular countries tend to have lower rates of crime. According to some studies the correlation between belief in God and antisocial behavior is strong enough to suspect religious belief does more harm than good.

I think you'll find most prison inmates are "born again Christians"

Could you provide the links for the studies which you speak of?

That said, I carry a gun not because I want or intend to harm others, but because Jesus isn't going to save my ass from evil men who mean me harm. I wish I was a better Christian to perhaps accept my fate from someone willing to do me harm so I could meet my savior at another mans hands, but that's yet another reason why I'm a sinner.

 

[Panacea]

Most prison inmates in the USA are Christians. But that doesn't mean much because most people in the USA are Christians. And some of the inmates may only pretend to be Christians because of the religious bigotry of parole boards.

As a group Christians are not more moral than others. In fact, studies indicate that more secular countries tend to have lower rates of crime. According to some studies the correlation between belief in God and antisocial behavior is strong enough to suspect religious belief does more harm than good.

This first part is also what I have seen working with the prison population, specifically.

I think this whole thread topic just comes down to a lot of people's inability to conceptualize a moral life, "like theirs" lived by a person without a god to worship, specifically without the Christian god. Religion is the cognitive reference point for most of the world, and unless some real perspective is gained, it's impossible to move from that reference.

Even for those who are willing to accept diversity in spiritual beliefs or lack thereof may not indicate being a horrible person, there still seems to be a hesitancy to admit god worshiping doesn't have to be the best way to be a good person.

When you throw in disgusting, elitist and mean-spirited attitudes about morality, like Joe has provided here, it just gets even more divisive.

I am thankful for people who are charitable and good hearted for whatever reason. I look up to them, and hope to improve myself enough to be more like them, no matter what their peripheral beliefs about the creation of the universe.

 

[Joe the meek]

When you throw in disgusting, elitist and mean-spirited attitudes about morality, like Joe has provided here, it just gets even more divisive.

Sorry you find my views about morality as disgusting, elitist and mean spirited.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Could you provide the links for the studies which you speak of?

Seems this argument has been had on other forums we've visited Joe.

It's fairly old news that religious societies tend toward greater violence and crime due to the ignorance required to actually believe the tales of the Abrahamic religions. Here's an excerpt from one study. The data in the statement can be verified as accurate:

Top of the class, in both atheism and good behavior, come the Japanese. Over eighty percent accept evolution and fewer than ten percent are certain that God exists. Despite its size – over a hundred million people – Japan is one of the least crime-prone countries in the world. It also has the lowest rates of teenage pregnancy of any developed nation.

Next in line are the Norwegians, British, Germans and Dutch. At least sixty percent accept evolution as a fact and fewer than one in three are convinced that there is a deity. There is little teenage pregnancy , although the Brits, with over 40 pregnancies per 1,000 girls a year, do twice as badly as the others. Homicide rates are also low -- around 1-2 victims per 100,000 people a year.

At the other end of the scale comes America. Over 50 percent of Americans believe in God, and only 40 percent accept some form of evolution (many believe it had a helping hand from the Deity). The U.S. has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy and homicide rates are at least five times greater than in Europe and ten times higher than in Japan.

All this information points to a strong correlation between faith and antisocial behavior -- a correlation so strong that there is good reason to suppose that religious belief does more harm than good.

Here's some more info:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2006/2006-7.html

 

[BornReady]

Could you provide the links for the studies which you speak of?

The articles I read weren't online. I think one of them was in Free Inquiry. I'm sure there are a lot of online articles on this topic too if you're interested.

That said, I carry a gun not because I want or intend to harm others, but because Jesus isn't going to save my ass from evil men who mean me harm.

Perhaps it is better to put your faith in a gun than in Jesus but perhaps not. I wonder if people who carry guns are any less likely to be shot?

I think this whole thread topic just comes down to a lot of people's inability to conceptualize a moral life, "like theirs" lived by a person without a god to worship, specifically without the Christian god.

Excellent point. When I was a Christian I thought Christianity was necessary for morality. I actually thought I would resort to all sorts of evil without my belief. But when I lost my belief, to my surprise, that didn't happen. I found I enjoy being good. If anything I am even better now because I view myself as good and expect myself to act accordingly. Thinking you are depraved can become a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[BornReady]

It's fairly old news that religious societies tend toward greater violence and crime due to the ignorance required to actually believe the tales of the Abrahamic religions. http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2006/2006-7.html

That could be part of the reason. But I also wonder if some of it stems from the belief that individuals can not determine right from wrong and must rely on God to tell them. In practice this normally means don't think for yourself. Just do what the religious leaders of your society tell you is right. This makes it possible for a few evil men to lead a society of good people into evil. Nazi Germany comes to mind. My sociology instructor said many of the soldiers at the concentration camps disapproved of what was going on but they trusted their leader's sense of morality more than their own.

 

[Joe the meek]

I am thankful for people who are charitable and good hearted for whatever reason. I look up to them, and hope to improve myself enough to be more like them, no matter what their peripheral beliefs about the creation of the universe.

I forgot to ask, have you improved yourself to be more like the people you look up to? Very eloquent words. Perhaps part of my problem is that I'm a realist.

Perhaps it is better to put your faith in a gun than in Jesus but perhaps not. I wonder if people who carry guns are any less likely to be shot?

By statistics, I don't think CC has any bearing on being the target of random acts of violence. I do however think that it has shown (to carry) to improve your chances of survival if by chance you become a target. The world is full of evil men. Fact is you can't rely upon others for your own safety. I also have as much faith in my firearms as I do in my table saw or hammer. A gun is nothing more than a tool. Like any tool, you better know how to use it or you can hurt yourself.

When I was a Christian I thought Christianity was necessary for morality

I'd like to consider myself a Christian, and I don't think that Christianity is needed for morality. You can have both good and evil men without religion. Right or wrong, I'm not sure if you can have one without the other.