Good Without Gods

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Panacea

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I forgot to ask, have you improved yourself to be more like the people you look up to? Very eloquent words. Perhaps part of my problem is that I'm a realist.

I try to, and it has worked in some ways, namely in my relationship. A work in progress in others.
 
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Johnfromokc

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I forgot to ask, have you improved yourself to be more like the people you look up to? Very eloquent words. Perhaps part of my problem is that I'm a realist.

Joe you really have a weed up your ass with this charitable work thing. You seem to want to let everyone know what you are doing and you're attempting to put other people on the spot by comparison.

You're in a place in your life right now where charity is something important to you. You just happened to be born Christian and associate with other Christians that do charity work - hence your perception that most charitable people are Christians.

Reasonable people can agree that all types of humans of all beliefs contribute to charities in different ways, for a variety of reasons, at different times in their lives. Some feel like there must be a belief in some deity to spur charitable action; others feel if the deity were worth a fat rats ass, there would be no need for charity in the first place.

Bottom line - let it go Bro. Do your work and let others do theirs, or do nothing if they choose. Charity is not a contest between humans. It is a desire within one human being to help another human being for whatever reason, in whatever way they can. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Panacea

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Joe you really have a weed up your ass with this charitable work thing. You seem to want to let everyone know what you are doing and you're attempting to put other people on the spot by comparison.

You're in a place in your life right now where charity is something important to you. You just happened to be born Christian and associate with other Christians that do charity work - hence your perception that most charitable people are Christians.

Reasonable people can agree that all types of humans of all beliefs contribute to charities in different ways, for a variety of reasons, at different times in their lives. Some feel like there must be a belief in some deity to spur charitable action; others feel if the deity were worth a fat rats ass, there would be no need for charity in the first place.

Bottom line - let it go Bro. Do your work and let others do theirs, or do nothing if they choose. Charity is not a contest between humans. It is a desire within one human being to help another human being for whatever reason, in whatever way they can. Nothing more, nothing less.


I do agree with this. It's completely contradictory to charity as a concept to play king of the mountain with good deeds, I just can't believe it :p
 

Joe the meek

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I do agree with this. It's completely contradictory to charity as a concept to play king of the mountain with good deeds, I just can't believe it :p

I've got to ask, where on this forum have I said anything I've done for charity?

Yes, I donate some time, but where have I been specific?

It's not king of the mountain with good deeds, just that you attempt to climb the mountain and keep climbing.

You seem to want to let everyone know what you are doing and you're attempting to put other people on the spot by comparison.
Same question, what have I mentioned about me doing?

It's not a comparison, just a put up or shut up time. As mentioned, I'm a realist. I'm sincerely curious as to what other people have done (particularly those with little or no faith in any kind of higher power) to help those around them. Sorry, other than asking, not sure else how to find that information out. Then again, you know me well enough to know that being tactful isn't a strong point of mine:D

You just happened to be born Christian

What exactly is a born Christian?
 
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Panacea

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I've got to ask, where on this forum have I said anything I've done for charity?

Yes, I donate some time, but where have I been specific?

It's not king of the mountain with good deeds, just that you attempt to climb the mountain and keep climbing.

Not on one of the pages in this thread? I swear you did. I can't be arsed to check, it's not my point as much as the criticism of what others have offered at your constant questioning.

Only because you keep asking everyone, as if you're trying to trap someone into admitting they're bad people.
 

Joe the meek

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Not on one of the pages in this thread? I swear you did. I can't be arsed to check, it's not my point as much as the criticism of what others have offered at your constant questioning.

Only because you keep asking everyone, as if you're trying to trap someone into admitting they're bad people.

The only thing I've said in this thread pertaining to what I do personally to try and make a difference in this world is that I donate some of my time.

I have asked questions pertaining to charity work that may of been performed by others, but I believe the assumption is that I've done those things myself, as I have not stated that I have actually done those things.

Take my criticism from my experience.

Personally, I have little faith in mankind due to our history. I'm sincerely hoping many here can prove me wrong.

Ask 1,000 people if they are "bad people", how many do you think will honestly answer the question with a "yes". Take 100,000 people and ask them the same question (if they think they are "bad"), how many will say "yes"? I'm not afraid to admit that I've been a bad person, and have even been a bad person now that I have found some kind of faith.

What I'm sincerely curious about is if people who have no faith in any kind of higher power actually go out and try to make the world a better place? I'm sorry, but other than to ask you what you have done per "trying to do good" and if you have a belief system of some sort of God in place is pretty much the only way I know how about getting that information.

As I've said before, being tactful, particularly on the internet isn't one of my strong points as a person, for that I do apologize.
 
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Johnfromokc

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I've got to ask, where on this forum have I said anything I've done for charity?

Yes, I donate some time, but where have I been specific?

It's not king of the mountain with good deeds, just that you attempt to climb the mountain and keep climbing.

Same question, what have I mentioned about me doing?

It's not a comparison, just a put up or shut up time. As mentioned, I'm a realist. I'm sincerely curious as to what other people have done (particularly those with little or no faith in any kind of higher power) to help those around them. Sorry, other than asking, not sure else how to find that information out. Then again, you know me well enough to know that being tactful isn't a strong point of mine:D



What exactly is a born Christian?

You did post this didn't you? See bolded text:


No Peter, I had to take a short plane flight yesterday, and although I primarily use my phone for work, I've found that it can be a wonderful distraction with reading the news and some internet forums. I really do hate typing paragraphs on my phone though, be it work e-mails or on internet forums. Is that a good enough response for you:D

Per your request, and this an example ONLY and I'm not talking about myself...

Stating what you may or may not do to try and make a difference in others lives...

I donate two hours a week of my free time at a nursing home.

Talking about what you may or may not do to try and make a difference in others lives...

Since I have a hectic schedule, I try to take a therapy dog to the nursing home to visit people who may or may not have loved ones who visit them. Since I can end up having work to do on Saturdays, I may try to take a day off early during the week to get over to the nursing home, or perhaps on a Sunday afternoon. The visits are just as rewarding for myself (perhaps another topic to debate) as they are for the the people the dog visits. Even in the alzheimer's ward, people seem to remember the dog coming in each week and want to hug her. The people seemed so moved by having a dog come in to visit them that they have asked the nurses to take pictures of them with the dog so they can put the picture up on their bedroom wall. Kind of funny at times because it's at the point where I don't feed the dog on the day I take her to the nursing home because some of the residents will save some of their food so they can feed her. Normally I wouldn't allow strangers to feed the dog, but it makes the resident's pretty happy doing so, and the dog doesn't mind it, so I allow it for the day.

All I'm wondering is what do YOU do each month or year to help those you don't know or have a "cause" that has no affect in your own life. I don't look at you answering my question (as far as what you do on your own dime) as bragging on your end.

God forbid we try to help each other and be nice at the same time.

And yes, I'm still working on my internet skills as far as being nice:24:

Oh, and Peter, you don't know really well if you think I'm ignoring you:p

Again, part of my point is that most of the people that I know who take the time and energy out of their own hectic work schedule do so because they have faith in a higher power of some sort.

Morals may change over long periods of time within a society, but the word of Jesus Christ does not (although man's interpretation may change). I know, then one could argue who's interpretation is the right one?

If that is not making comparisons Joe, then what exactly is it?
 

Panacea

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What I'm sincerely curious about is if people who have no faith in any kind of higher power actually go out and try to make the world a better place?

Sure they do. You're less likely to find an appropriate sample from three atheists/agnostics on one forum, but if you look out there, like someone said before, there are many secular charities and programs.

I'm sure you know, but just because you were an asshole when you didn't worship a god doesn't mean everyone else is the same.
 

Zorak

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Sure they do. You're less likely to find an appropriate sample from three atheists/agnostics on one forum, but if you look out there, like someone said before, there are many secular charities and programs.

One that springs to the front of my mind is Médecins sans Frontiéres. They couldn't do the job they do if they weren't secular.
 

Joe the meek

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You did post this didn't you? See bolded text:




If that is not making comparisons Joe, then what exactly is it?

John, you forgot to put in bold where I stated "and this is an example ONLY, and I'm not talking about myself":24: Funny isn't it how you missed that part? The paragraphs that you highlighted, as I had mentioned, were for an example only as the difference, IMO between "stating" what you have done as compared to "talking about" what you have done. I hope that makes sense.

You're right though, we are all in different points in our journey in life, which may affect what and how we do things. That said, if you want something done...LOL

I may forget about the log in my eye from time to time, but I sincerely don't try to forget “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ... "

That said, IMO it's not done for the reward, but for the example that was given to us.
 
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Johnfromokc

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John, you forgot to put in bold where I stated "and this is an example ONLY, and I'm not talking about myself". Funny isn't it how you missed that part?

Joe, I didn't miss it. You and I have been discussing topics like this over the internet for how many years now? You can say you're not talking about yourself, and you might believe it, but I know the charities you are involved in because you have shared that information with me.

I may forget about the log in my eye from time to time, but I sincerely don't try to forget

Yes, I think you might have missed the plank in your own eye whlie pointing out the tiny little splinters of others this time.

Regardless of how you are trying to frame it now, Joe, it looks like a duck and it's quacking really loud.

I'm just telling you how it looks from out here in Oklahoma City.
 

BornReady

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Personally, I have little faith in mankind due to our history. I'm sincerely hoping many here can prove me wrong.

I don't get on the humanity bashing bandwagon. Yes, there are evil people in the world but there are also a lot of good people. We have made a lot of mistakes but we learn from them. Maybe not as fast as you'd like but we're making progress.
 

Joe the meek

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I don't get on the humanity bashing bandwagon. Yes, there are evil people in the world but there are also a lot of good people. We have made a lot of mistakes but we learn from them. Maybe not as fast as you'd like but we're making progress.

I don't consider not having much faith in humanity "on the humanity bashing bandwagon". If I had no faith at all in humanity I wouldn't try at all to make a difference where I can. The question is if we can survive from our mistakes given the short amount of time that we've been on this earth as a species. How many people are now living on this earth compared to the the short amount of time we've populated it? I completely agree that we have learned from our mistakes, but my fear is that at the rate we're going, there isn't going to be enough time to get where we need to be (no war, stable population, being able to feed everyone, being able to take care of those who physically can't take care of themselves...)

I'm just telling you how it looks from out here in Oklahoma City.
Perhaps. That said John, you should know me well enough that for better or worse, particularly on the internet, trying to convert people to anything was never a forte of mine in my personal life. Could you see me on a corner trying to convert people to something:24:

I also agree that numerous times I've missed the plank in my eye, and in some instances, I believe you know me well enough that I've even apologized. Right back to you on that one though:D

As for the example I had given Peter, writing in the first person was the easiest way to show as an example as to what the difference is (IMO) between stating what you have done to try and make a difference as compared to talking about it (and thank you SO much for pointing out what you know about me LOL). IMO there was no reason to let people believe that the example I gave was something I was familiar with.

Perhaps what should be done is a poll of some sort. List the degree of faith the person has in some sort of higher power (perhaps including the days a year a church is attended) as compared to the time and money spent trying to help others? Anyway you cut it, data still must be gathered, and other than giving the amount of time (and perhaps money) each year a person gives of themselves, I'm not sure how else you could quantify that data to try to come to some kind of conclusion.

For better or worse, anyone IMO can be nice to others, as it's not that hard. I know that comment can be misconstrued, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't be nice, but that there are actual needs out there that takes work. Ultimately what I'm sincerely hoping for is that people that have little to no faith at all does some of the things I know other people do on their own dime and time due to their religion. For better or worse, that "sample test" is here.
 
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Minor Axis

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I think the point of the thread is that belief in God may make you feel charitable, but that is not the only source of charitable feelings. Humans have empathy for one another whether God is staring down at us or not. A feeling that comes from within, not from what is expected of you. ;)
 

Zorak

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I think the point of the thread is that belief in God may make you feel charitable, but that is not the only source of charitable feelings. Humans have empathy for one another whether God is staring down at us or not. A feeling that comes from within, not from what is expected of you. ;)


That's the keyword right there. That is what all human society is based on and would be impossible without.

In many senses, religion is the opposite of empathic. Religion deals with how to bring groups of individuals under one banner, whereas a wholly empathic society would discourage such actions. What is the opposite of empathy? Apathy. In a number of ways, religion is apathetic.
 
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