Good Without Gods

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Diggin Deep

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I think many laws are unfair and encroach on personal liberty. Laws should be in place to protect people from others and make us safe. They shouldn't be in place to dictate morals to people and babysit people which they all to often do. If what I do dosen't hurt anyone, I dont see that anyone has any business to try and stop me. Unfortunately the government and their laws all too often disagree. Sorry but that argument dosen't wash with me.

It wasn't an argument...just an example. We have rules, laws, and guidelines that are goverened by our governments just as those who believe in God have rules, laws, and guidelines that are goverened by God - and some tie together. We know the difference between good and evil...we have a choice to abide by those laws or not. We know the consequences of breaking them. If we break them, we deserve to be punished. That's just the way life works...right?
 

HK

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Other animals besides humans also live in communities and little societies that have rules and guidelines, but animals have no apparent religion. Where do animals receive their ideas about how they should treat their fellows from?
 

Peter Parka

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Punishment being a deterant against crime isn't a very effective deterant. The USA, for example has the ultimate punishment for murder, death. Does it cause less murder? Statistics say no. Besides. would you say that if someone dosen't commit a crime because they don't want to go to prison, that makes them a good person? I would say no. The person who dosen't commit a crime because they know it's a bad thing to do, regardless of the consequences is a much better and more moral person.
 

Diggin Deep

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Other animals besides humans also live in communities and little societies that have rules and guidelines, but animals have no apparent religion. Where do animals receive their ideas about how they should treat their fellows from?

The Bible states that both man and animals have the breath of life. The primary difference between human beings and animals is that humanity is made in the image and likeness of God, while animals are not. Being made in the image and likeness of God means that human beings are like God, capable of spirituality, with mind, emotion, and will. So I would conclude that even though they have no apparent religion, they are still creations of God and He would have given them basic instincts and survival methods for their communities and little societies.

That's the best I have on that topic :D
 

Peter Parka

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Animals also perform homosexual activites on each other. Seeing that also must be god made instict, is the bible wrong and god actually approves of homosexuality too?
 

Diggin Deep

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Animals also perform homosexual activites on each other. Seeing that also must be god made instict, is the bible wrong and god actually approves of homosexuality too?

Geesh Peter...seriously?!?:willy_nilly: Like I said, they aren't created in God's image and I doubt they are able to behave based on moral and ethical decisions. :surrender
 

Panacea

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I would guess someone might say animals are sinners too, taken over by dark forces of satin...er...satan. :p
Have you ever had a debate about literature in class, and people go on and on about what the author meant and why it was said but no one actually knows and a lot of the suggestions don't make much sense? That's as good as the bible can get, honestly. There's some interpreted explanation for everything, sans logic, and that's faith.
 

Diggin Deep

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I would guess someone might say animals are sinners too, taken over by dark forces of satin...er...satan. :p
Have you ever had a debate about literature in class, and people go on and on about what the author meant and why it was said but no one actually knows and a lot of the suggestions don't make much sense? That's as good as the bible can get, honestly. There's some interpreted explanation for everything, sans logic, and that's faith.

My dogs are not sinners and they definitely haven't been taken over by Satan...man I hope not! :ninja Well there was that time when they pooped on the floor and ate a whole in the carpet...hmmm...ha!ha!

Well said Pan! :thumbup
 
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Peter Parka

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I guess I can understand dogs instinct to eat shit from a biblical point of view seeing that god once commanded a man to cook and eat shit. :D
 

Minor Axis

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Without a cause possessing meaning and purpose, there can be no morality in effect. Without a moral law giver, there can be nothing called ‘good,’ nor can there be anything called ‘evil.’ The logic works this way: if there’s such a thing as evil, you must assume there’s such a thing as good. If you assume there’s such a thing as good, you assume there’s such a thing as an absolute and unchanging moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. If you assume there’s such a thing as an absolute moral law, you must posit an absolute moral law giver, but that would be God.

I find this logic on the simplistic side. Moral codes come from within- not without. We as individuals and as society decide what morality best serves us. Looking at a figure in the sky who decrees morality does not work. As an individual, you have to buy into it, agree that it is the best choice and not out of fear of punishment. Where does that come from? I can see an argument that God (or whatever) gave us the morals that reside within us. We have them, they came from somewhere, however this would not explain why some are good and some are bad. Free choice comes into play. To assign the characteristics of "good" to a God, means first you have to believe there is a God, who cares about this issue and acts as a caretaker for the human race. Maybe, maybe not. If you are going to speak of God, it is just as easy to speak of the journey of the soul, a journey that might encompass multiple lifetimes, seeking a higher level, but if the levels have been set by God, how much free will do we really have? Why must we agree this is the right path? Certainly not because something higher than us decreed it. We must decide it is the right path based on our internal moral compass. That comes from within.

Hows that for a convoluted post? If anything I hope I've illustrated this is not a simple concept. :p
 

Joe the meek

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I find this logic on the simplistic side. Moral codes come from within- not without. We as individuals and as society decide what morality best serves us. Looking at a figure in the sky who decrees morality does not work. As an individual, you have to buy into it, agree that it is the best choice and not out of fear of punishment. Where does that come from? I can see an argument that God (or whatever) gave us the morals that reside within us. We have them, they came from somewhere, however this would not explain why some are good and some are bad. Free choice comes into play. To assign the characteristics of "good" to a God, means first you have to believe there is a God, who cares about this issue and acts as a caretaker for the human race. Maybe, maybe not. If you are going to speak of God, it is just as easy to speak of the journey of the soul, a journey that might encompass multiple lifetimes, seeking a higher level, but if the levels have been set by God, how much free will do we really have? Why must we agree this is the right path? Certainly not because something higher than us decreed it. We must decide it is the right path based on our internal moral compass. That comes from within.

Anyway you cut it, for the time it was written, the 10 commandments are a wonderful blueprint for morals.
 

Panacea

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Eh...*waves hand side to side*
I am the Lord your God (next)
You shall have no other gods before me (next)
You shall not make for yourself an idol (next)
Do not take the name of the Lord in vain (next)
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy (next)
Honor your father and mother (next, what if they rape you)
You shall not kill/murder (good)
You shall not commit adultery (ok)
You shall not steal (ok)
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor (ok)
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife (who gives a shit, next)
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor (who gives a shit, next)

:D hehe
 

Zorak

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Anyway you cut it, for the time it was written, the 10 commandments are a wonderful blueprint for morals.

What part?

There were already, and had been for hundreds of years, laws against murder and theft. And a great social stigma attached to adultery.
As for most of the other commandments, they are only to further monotheistic superiority.
 

Joe the meek

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Shame Christians blatently disobey it, especially the bit about not making idols. Have you seen the inside of a church lately? lol!

Funny, I've never known any US citizen to call a man "King":D

Here is the kicker, who really gives a &*&% who has morals and why they have them? You want to see people at their best, see them when they think they are going to die.

What I do know from personal experience is that working with people who go out of their way to help others, they usually have some sort of faith in a higher power.

Come to think of it, why do you guys in England give a **** about the King and Queen? You do have to give it to the French at least one time, they knew what to do with the Monarchy.
 
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Peter Parka

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What I do know from personal experience is that working with people who go out of their way to help others, they usually have some sort of faith in a higher power.

Usually because they want to convert them. I prefer people who help others without an agenda. Anyway, I guess you have a different experience than me, I find aethiests just as helpful as religious people.
 

Joe the meek

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I find aethiests just as helpful as religious people.

Who and what do they do to help people less fortunate than themselves?

For myself, when I volunteer my time, I don't do so to convert anyone nor does anyone else I know of. That said, some Churches will run groups who help who speak of God.
 
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Peter Parka

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Who and what do they do to help people less fortunate than themselves?

For myself, when I volunteer my time, I don't do so to convert anyone nor does anyone else I know of. That said, some Churches will run groups who help who speak of God.

What, you mean apart from all the thousands and thousands of non religious charities? :rolleyes:
 
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