for all you atheists out there...

[memento_mori]

I don't have to back it up per say. What is a scientific theory to you? We observe something, then we use logic and testing (if possible) to explain what we see. When we come up with something that fits the facts, we put the theory stamp on it. Later, when we can prove this theory, it graduates to law. Our universe is something we can observe. Its origins cannot be tested. If a creator existed, and made all of these wonderful things we see, it would fit all of the facts. Hence ‘scientific theory.’ I know it sounds absurd to you, but I think it is similar to the absurdity you would have expected if 3000 years ago if somebody told you people lived underneath the world, and didn't fall off.

scientific theory defined by dictionary.com is a theory that explains scientific observations; "scientific theories must be falsifiable" , but i was thinking you'd come up with some kind of crazy fossil or something, or God's myspace account. So it does fit all the evidence I guess (barely), but it's not falsifiable. It's intentionally explained so that we have no idea how to disprove it until it dies. And with out this risk of being wrong, it's just a pretty way of looking at things. Like string theory. At least the Big Bang makes use of making predictions and observing radio waves from outer space, as advertised on this snazzy $14.99 t-shirt from xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe





The graph on the back of the shirt is data from the COBE mission, which looked at the background microwave glow of the universe and found that it fit perfectly with the idea that the universe used to be really hot everywhere. This strongly reinforced the Big Bang theory and was one of the most dramatic examples of an experiment agreeing with a theory in history -- the data points fit perfectly, with error bars too small to draw on the graph. It's one of the most triumphant scientific results in history.

and sure, it could still be a coincidence that we predicted the radiowaves, they're really part of something else. some people would go far to say God is sending us radiowaves to throw us off, so the real believers are the ones left standing on judgment day. but the big bang still sounds like the most reasonable explanation we've got, after all, it did the predicting.

Nope. Not this guy. An incomplete theory is always in a state of flux as it is being formed. Almost by definition, it is either evolving (ha-ha), or being ignored. There is no shame in the time it takes to build an idea. It takes time, data, and information. When things come along that look different than you expected, you have to re-asses, re-calculate, and continue on. I’m very cool with that.

What I do look at as a bad thing is the idea of this incomplete theory being looked at and taught as law. It hasn’t even finished the first step, but people have such great faith in the idea, that they are unwilling to entertain a complete theory on the subject.

taught as law, as if we know what's going on. do we ever really know anything? that's another debate. but let's assume there's some kind of certainty close enough to knowing that we can teach it as law. i think scientific laws, even the ones that contradict religous principles, have gone under enough trial and error to be taught as laws, since they're some of the most certain principles we have.

and about the incompleteness of science- by its nature, science is going to be conducted so long as we have the power. it could be forever. once upon a time we discovered the speed of light. we thought that was all there was to physics. we were wrong. but i'll make a bold statement- with what the incomplete theory of science has so far, is more reliable than what creationism or religion has done for understanding the universe.


Hmmm... Well, I think the best way for me to describe what I think about this is that I disagree with the spirit of what you're saying. Human error is a fact of life, and must be taken into account in everything that we do. As our technology and background information become more developed, we are constantly calibrating our information, but I still don't see science as being based on a belief that we will be wrong. :confused It's possible I just don’t understand what you're saying, but it's equally possible that we simply disagree.

we will be wrong, unless we try our best to get the most accurate results possible. then we can be less wrong, until maybe one day we're 100% right.

 

[All Else Failed]

You totally lose me sometimes brother. What exactly is your definition of evidence? :confused

Definition of evidence - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary


Physical, testable, recordable, undenyable proof. Christianity has none of this.

 

[Reaver]

http://www.offtopicz.net/12835-after-life.html

 

[Magic P]

God doesn't want us to know everything. He's in heaven and we are on earth, so let our words be few. Why do u think we could understand the almighty god's doing anyways? Who are we to question? If you clay a pot and then the pot ask you why and how you did it; then the pot says I don't like they way you make you, I blame you... What would you say? I would just say shut the hell up, I am God, I do whatever I want.

 

[Magic P]

the way you made me I meant*

 

[Reaver]

If you clay a pot and then the pot ask you why and how you did it; then the pot says I don't like they way you make you, I blame you... What would you say? I would just say shut the hell up, I am God, I do whatever I want.

But under those circumstances you would be to blame. More important than the question of "is there an afterlife?" is the fact that no one can ever truly know until they are dead. And by that time, it's kinda late to tell everyone whats it's like. I mean, if we could relay what the afterlife was like, we would surely already know, and thus we wouldn't have to talk about it in several different, repetitive threads on Otz.

 

[Magic P]

But under those circumstances you would be to blame. More important than the question of "is there an afterlife?" is the fact that no one can ever truly know until they are dead. And by that time, it's kinda late to tell everyone whats it's like. I mean, if we could relay what the afterlife was like, we would surely already know, and thus we wouldn't have to talk about it in several different, repetitive threads on Otz.

If you know about afterlife then faith wouldn't exist and we will live like we will go to heaven. People will not have free will and choices and we will be robots. I am sick of this discussion. Everything has a reason behind it. Why are all the atheists so simply-minded?

 

[dt3]

If you know about afterlife then faith wouldn't exist and we will live like we will go to heaven. People will not have free will and choices and we will be robots. I am sick of this discussion. Everything has a reason behind it. Why are all the atheists so simply-minded?

Why are all religious people so willing to believe just because someone says so?

 

[Tim]

God doesn't want us to know everything. He's in heaven and we are on earth, so let our words be few. Why do u think we could understand the almighty god's doing anyways? Who are we to question? If you clay a pot and then the pot ask you why and how you did it; then the pot says I don't like they way you make you, I blame you... What would you say? I would just say shut the hell up, I am God, I do whatever I want.

If there is a God and he made us in his own image, then he surely wanted us to question him and everything. It's hard to imagine a God that created everything including us, gives us the ability to reason then doesn't want us to get answers to our questions.

The existance of a God just isn't logical, at least as it's explained in the Bible. God is All-knowing, Everywhere, the beginning and the end, etc.... Then why would he create us and the universe we live in? Was it for his own amuzement? He has no beginning and no end, he is infinite, then why now? Why not 100,000,000 trillion years ago? Most of this doesn't make sence once you can truely wrap your hands around what infinity accutally means in terms of time... Then he creates us (man) tells a few people about himself instructing them to go and spread his word. Tells us that if we don't believe in him, then after living a few short years on this planet, we will burn for an eternity in a lake of fire.... A fucking eternity, not just 100 trillion years, not a billion times 100 trillion years, not even 1,000,000,000,000 trillion times that, but a fucking eternity. For not believing something that you cannot see, hear, feel or touch. Something that you are supposed to have faith in, something you were told about by another human. Then when you question this fucked up logic, you are scared back into believing because no one can prove that you will not burn in a lake of fire for eternity. So you step back into line and nod your head, hedging your bet that there may be a God that is cruel enough to tourment your soul for all of eternity.

 

[Peter Parka]

Well said Tim, I was just going to respond to that comment. A pot does not have the ability to speak, it does not have the ability to think and ask questions. Why would a God create me with the ability to think things through for myself and question him but then not give me the means to do so?

 

[dt3]

Damn good post, Tim. Really well-put.

 

[Tim]

I've always thought about the fact that God can do ANYTHING... if that's true

can he create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?

 

[Tim]

It's a long read, but very good

An Atheist on Judgment day


The line seemed to stretch back forever. Hundreds of millions of souls, waiting patiently for their turn before the throne. The date... Well, the day is Judgment Day, so you won't find it on any calendar. The queue of people winds its way down the mountain, through the valley and off into the far distance. Everybody in the queue can see the final destination at the mountain peak. A hundred miles away, they can see it perfectly clearly. And they wait, moving forward a couple of steps at a time. Towards God, and the Decision.
At the head of the we find a young Christian, wearing an expression of awe and joy. Behind him, an atheist, looking slightly astonished, examining a leaf she has picked from a nearby bush, trying to decide if it is real or not. Heaven, she thinks, should be whiter, with more dry ice swirling about; not look like a Welsh hillside on a hot day.
The Christian steps forward for judgment.
"Hello Martin". God's voice is calm and gentle as He speaks.
"Erm.. Hello. Lord". Martin's voice is nervous, as a dozen emotions fight for room in his mind at once.
"This is it. This is where I decide what shall happen to you, Martin. In life, you were a Christian". It was a statement, not a question.
"I was, Lord. I still am. I have been all my life. I have dedicated myself to your service."
"Tell me, Martin. Why were you a Christian? Why did you believe in me?"
"Why? Well... Because you are God! I've always believed in you."
"That is not what I want to know. Why did you believe?"
"Because I knew it was true. You were always there for me. You helped me through the bad times. You answered my prayers. You gave me the strength and courage to get through life. I could feel your presence with me all the time."
"No."
"Pardon, Lord?"
"I said no, Martin. I have never helped you. You seemed to be doing perfectly alright by yourself. I heard your prayers, but never answered a single one. Your belief in me definitely helped you on occasion, but I have never intervened in your life. Certainly, you gave me credit for all the good times, but they were your own doing, not mine. You did not feel my presence, because it cannot be felt. The only actual proof you have that I exist at all is here and now. Again, tell me why you believed."
"I.. I had faith, Lord. Since I was a child I have been to church, prayed and sang every Sunday. My faith in you never wavered. Even when my mother died, I had faith that it was your will, that it was a blessing from you that she passed peacefully. I was raised to believe in you, and as I grew I read the Bible for myself, and learnt of your miracles, and all the saints and martyrs, and the good done in your name. I read the works of great philosophers and they merely strengthened my faith. I knew it was true. "
"No, Martin. Your mother died of natural causes, and she died peacefully because of the actions of the hospital. I watched and saw, but that is all. As for the rest - the saints, martyrs and philosophers had similar reasons for their belief in me, just as dictators and murderers have had. People have done great good and great harm in my name, and in the names of a thousand false gods. The Bible was written about me, not by me, and was written by people who had similar reasons as you for their belief, just as a thousand other Holy Books have been written about the false gods, or different versions of myself. I ask for the third and final time. Why did you believe in me?"
Martin looked shocked and ashen, but pulled himself together. His Lord was testing him, and he had lived his entire life for this moment.
"I believed because I could feel in my heart it was true. You sent your son to die for us, and I gladly accepted Him as my saviour. I.. I just knew it was true, and now that I see you, my faith has been vindicated. I no longer need to believe - I can see for myself the truth and majesty of my religion."
Quietly, God spoke again. "Martin, you have impressed me". He paused.
"But... not enough. You believe because you were taught to believe. You believe because you mistakenly attribute to me anything positive that has happened in your life, and discount anything negative. You believe because it is comforting to believe, and because you are frightened of the consequences of my not existing. You believe because... you believe. I'm sorry, Martin, but there is no place for you here."
God gestured briefly with his fingers, and Martin vanished. His shadow lingered where he had stood, fading rapidly to nothingness.


continued...

 

[Tim]

The atheist, somewhat shaken by what she had just seen, stepped forward.
"Hello Eve. I like that name."
"Ah. Hello, God. Thanks", said Eve, not entirely sure how to address a being she had, until now, considered fictional.
"Yes, you may call me God. Eve, in life you were an atheist. You doubted my existence, even objecting to the very concept". Again, a statement, not a question.
"Yes, I did. Clearly, I was mistaken."
"Clearly. Tell me, are you still an atheist?"
"I suppose not. I'm not a Christian, Jew or anything else. I guess I'd have to be called an involuntary theist. Ah ha ha", Eve laughed nervously, hoping the very real and solid-looking deity before her had a good sense of humour.
"Mmm... Tell me, Eve. Why did you not believe in me?". God's voice was kind and gentle once more.
"At one point I did. I was raised as a Christian, and often went to church, and prayed every night before bed. When I was feeling down I would read the Bible. The act of reading it seemed to comfort me, even though the words themselves didn't seem much help. I think, like Martin, I believed because I believed."
"And then you lost your faith? You decided I did not exist, and you knew better than those around you? You knew better than your pastor and family?" The voice was losing its kindly edge a little.
"That is one way of looking at it, yes. What I believed did not seem to fit with other things I knew. The Bible clearly could not be literally true, word for word. I knew from biology and paleontology that humans had evolved like all other life, and were not special creations. How life or the universe began, I still don't know, but could not just merely accept 'God did it' as an explanation. I learned about other religions, and how they all claimed a monopoly on truth, happiness and morality. I saw the good done in your name, but I also saw the oppression, genocide and wars. I saw that if people were in need, it was up to us to deal with it, not to rely on heavenly aid.". Eve felt a little braver, but was expecting the traditional thunderbolt any moment. The people behind her, now at the head of the queue, were slowly moving backwards, trying not to draw attention to themselves.
"Yet here you are, before your God, on the final Day of Judgment. Why should I allow you in - a heretic, a disbeliever, an infidel - when your predecessor, devout and faithful, full of love for me, was consigned to Oblivion? Tell me why. Justify your entry to my Paradise."
Eve straightened up, looking God in the face. "Why should you let me in? Because I am better person than you."
If Eve had looked round, she would have seen the entire line of souls, perfectly still and wide-eyed, staring at her in shock.
"What did you say?", enquired God. His voice, though barely audible, caused tremors in the mountain.
Surprised at still being alive, her mouth dry, Eve continued. "I said, because I am a better person. You have shown it yourself already. You told Martin that you watched as his mother became ill and died. You destroyed him for believing for no good reason, when his whole life had been shaped by that belief. Your preachers on Earth encourage unquestioning faith, yet you do not tell us whether that is what you want. You give people no rational basis for belief, and then when they make up their own that is not good enough for you. You listen to our prayers, yet do not answer, leaving people to rationalise events for themselves. People kill and slaughter over trivial differences in doctrine, and you look on. In the churches and temples raised in your glory, children are mentally and physically abused - in your so-called House! All over the world, throughout history, people have murdered each other for believing the wrong thing about God, for believing in the wrong God, or for not believing in any God. The poorest and most helpless people are relentlessly targeted, being told to give what little they have now, for the promise of eternal bliss later. When a person is at his lowest ebb, that is when the smiling missionaries appear, knowing that his life will probably get better naturally and they can give you the credit. In your name, the ends justify the means as long as souls are saved". Eve paused for breath, and continued.
"And you? All-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing? You just sit here and you watch it all... Any person in this line, had they your power, would show greater compassion and morality. You may be God, but you are far from Godliness."
God smiled. "Are you finished? Good. Eve, you have impressed me". He paused. Eve held her breath, shoulders tensing.
"You have impressed me a great deal. You may have believed in me for all the wrong reasons, but you disbelieved for the right reasons. You led a good life, and used the intelligence I give to everybody in the correct way. Even though you came to a conclusion about me that was hopelessly wrong, you came to it in a way that cannot be faulted. You may pass into paradise, Eve, with my blessing."
Eve did not step forward. Instead, she spoke once more. "No, I will not".
"No? You refuse Heaven? You defy my will?" The smile had left God's face again.
"Do you think I would want to spend one more minute, let alone eternity, in your company? You allow people to suffer, sometimes for their entire lives, for no purpose, and then judge them on their reaction. You hide yourself from the world and allow your creations to persecute each other over differing interpretations of the lack of evidence. You see all the pain and ignorance caused in your name, and just sit there as this queue grows daily? And then you have the audacity to punish good people for believing in you 'for the wrong reasons'?"
"Eve. Enough of this. The gates to Paradise are open to you. Be silent now, and enter."
"No. If it is a choice between oblivion and an eternity with a monster like you, I gladly choose oblivion. I ask only one thing, before you destroy me."
"And what is that?" asked God, getting impatient.
"That, if you can, you look me in the eyes as you do it."


Shortly afterwards, the next person in the queue stepped towards the top of the mountain, and Judgment.

 

[All Else Failed]

Anyone here think its pretty bad that creationism is going to be taught in some public schools?

EDIT: That story was pretty good, Tim.

 

[Tim]

Anyone here think its pretty bad that creationism is going to be taught in some public schools?

No, not at all. I think all forms of science should be taught in school... err, nevermind

Yeah, it kinda sucks.....

 

[All Else Failed]

No, not at all. I think all forms of science should be taught in school... err, nevermind

Yeah, it kinda sucks.....

What gets me the most is the outright rejection of facts and reality. I mean come on, I don't care who you are, if you think the earth is only 6,000 years old and Dinosaures coexisted with man, you're a complete moron.

 

[Charmer]

Anyone here think its pretty bad that creationism is going to be taught in some public schools?

Yes, completely.

I'm waiting for the day when a student writes a paper in Creationism Class saying that he believes that God and the Bible are all fictional mumbo-jumbo and the next thing you know he's in the principal's office with his parents AND a priest!

 

[dt3]

I think it's pathetic they'll teach something that has no evidence to support it

 

[All Else Failed]

I forget the exact statistic, but I think 2/3 of America doubt evolution is real...or around that. THATS sad.