for all you atheists out there...

[Reaver]

How can it not be random if there is no intelligence behind it? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prove creationism, I just find holes in both theories, maybe there's a better theory which we haven't discovered yet. *shrugs*

That's because neither theory has been proven yet. We each as people must go with what we believe to be true. There are people who choose a side based on a higher being who can know what they can't and do what they can't and then there is a side that tries to understand how we arrived here, and why. Religious people believe they know were we came from, but very often believe it isn't our place to question why we are here because "God has a plan for us" whereas those who don't believe normally want to know the answers to were humans came from, not necessarily as much why we are here.

In addition, the reason people need to see a higher more intelligent being behind everything they do is simply because people need to feel that their lives have meaning. They want to feel that what they do matters to someone. Most people find it hard to grip onto the fact that there may not be someone out there watching you and everything you do, waiting to reward you after death. As an atheist, I feel that what I do does matter to people, if not to myself, then to those friends and loved ones around me. But I don't need to do everything I do for some being that for all I know doesn't exist. It's a simple need for a reward that keeps people interested in God.

 

[All Else Failed]

That's because neither theory has been proven yet. We each as people must go with what we believe to be true. There are people who choose a side based on a higher being who can know what they can't and do what they can't and then there is a side that tries to understand how we arrived here, and why. Religious people believe they know were we came from, but very often believe it isn't our place to question why we are here because "God has a plan for us" whereas those who don't believe normally want to know the answers to were humans came from, not necessarily as much why we are here.

In addition, the reason people need to see a higher more intelligent being behind everything they do is simply because people need to feel that their lives have meaning. They want to feel that what they do matters to someone. Most people find it hard to grip onto the fact that there may not be someone out there watching you and everything you do, waiting to reward you after death. As an atheist, I feel that what I do does matter to people, if not to myself, then to those friends and loved ones around me. But I don't need to do everything I do for some being that for all I know doesn't exist. It's a simple need for a reward that keeps people interested in God.

There's so much evidence for evolution thats its very hard to say its not proven.



I don't believe people need god to have meaning in their lives at all. You should forge your own path and live your own life.

 

[dt3]

I honestly refuse to believe either until one can answer where everything began. Either where did God come from? Or where did the matter in the Big Bang come from?

Until then, both theories are fundamentally flawed to me.

 

[All Else Failed]

I honestly refuse to believe either until one can answer where everything began. Either where did God come from? Or where did the matter in the Big Bang come from?

Until then, both theories are fundamentally flawed to me.

Well, that is a extremely large thing to ask of anyone, we just have the evidence that we have and make theories off of what can be tested.

 

[dt3]

Well, that is a extremely large thing to ask of anyone, we just have the evidence that we have and make theories off of what can be tested.

I don't think asking for irrefutable evidence is too much to ask...If you're saying just take it on faith, it could go either way, and I know you don't believe that!

 

[All Else Failed]

I don't think asking for irrefutable evidence is too much to ask...If you're saying just take it on faith, it could go either way, and I know you don't believe that!

Believe me, scientists are researching everyday to figure your question out. Something as complex as the universe isn't just figured out 100% in a short amount of time. :tongue:

But, until then, all evidence points to a big bang.

 

[dt3]

Believe me, scientists are researching everyday to figure your question out. Something as complex as the universe isn't just figured out 100% in a short amount of time. :tongue:

But, until then, all evidence points to a big bang.

Believe me, I don't believe in god whatsoever, especially after seeing what people will do in "his" name. I definitely lean towards evolution, but they both have unanswered questions. To me nothing is 100% certain until all doubt is taken away.

 

[memento_mori]

I honestly refuse to believe either until one can answer where everything began. Either where did God come from? Or where did the matter in the Big Bang come from?

Until then, both theories are fundamentally flawed to me.

well God just always was, always has, and always will be. kind of an arbitrary way of looking at things but when you think about it, science is probably doomed to resting at some sort of arbitrary point of saying "this always has and always will be".

but if it makes you feel better we are trying our damndest to get the best picture possible and we will not rest with out getting more evidence and theories of how the universe began.

i know the big bang and evolution are thrown around a lot on these forums against creationism, but even the big bang really only dates back 14 billion years ago, and we only know up to about 10^-35 seconds after this mysterious expansion took place. By all means, if you wish to believe God caused this expansion so be it.

but i woud like to point out some other scientific theories of how the universe began, or at least works. one theory is that our universe is like a jump rope, going back and forth and back and forth in oscillations. in this theory the big bang is the start of our swing of the rope, and soon enough there will be a big crunch to counteract the big bang. our universe will collapse and start another big bang for a seperate universe. round and round we go.

this theory can be pleasing, it has the allure of symmetry. everyone likes symmetry. because what do we like more than splitting the world up into polar opposites? good vs evil, chocolate vs vanilla, theists vs atheists, man vs woman.

but remember this: just because an idea is pleasing, does not make it more reliable than actual evidence.

 

[Magic P]

God does give us answers but sometimes it's not the way we want it. If he gave us all the answers then we will be gods.

 

[memento_mori]

God does give us answers but sometimes it's not the way we want it. If he gave us all the answers then we will be gods.

maybe we are gods? i dunno. what's a god mean to you? having all the answers? how do we know getting our answers from Him and finding answers ourselves? everything 'good' we learn is from God and everything else is just our mistakes?

 

[IntruderLS1]

Holy cow you guys talk a lot!! I don't know how you find the time to keep up with yourselves.

In my opinion, evolution requires a greater leap of faith than creationism. The problems you like to talk about are problems of time, but there are far deeper issues with evolution than that alone. Even the big bang requires a start somewhere. A singularity that has to have been created, before time existed. How do you explain that one? Man's greatest minds have spent tens of thousands of hours on the subject, and have come to no answer, yet you persist it is the only way.

I am going to post a few links (even though I HATE to) that I don't think you'll read, but you seem to like science talk.

This one is as short and sweet as they come. Twenty some-odd page slide show skimming the surface of the most basic problems with the evolutionary theory. Memento, you'll be happy to see that C.O.B.E. has made it into this document.
Evidence for God's Existence from Cosmology

This one is for evolutionary design issues:
Bad Designs in Biology? - Why the "Best" Examples Are Bad

I know it looks like a huge turd on modern scientific thought, but I assure you, you'll tell me it doesn't prove anything anyway. LOL.

 

[Magic P]

maybe we are gods? i dunno. what's a god mean to you? having all the answers? how do we know getting our answers from Him and finding answers ourselves? everything 'good' we learn is from God and everything else is just our mistakes?

God means so much more than just a flawless being. He's the creator of the universe. If we seek, we will get the answers but you gotta have the right attitude and you gotta be willing to pay the effort even though sometimes you just don't get it. I wouldn't care who is more right or who provides the answer. The world is right here so go explore it but don't be arrogant cuz we are just human beings.

 

[All Else Failed]

Holy cow you guys talk a lot!! I don't know how you find the time to keep up with yourselves.

In my opinion, evolution requires a greater leap of faith than creationism. The problems you like to talk about are problems of time, but there are far deeper issues with evolution than that alone. Even the big bang requires a start somewhere. A singularity that has to have been created, before time existed. How do you explain that one? Man's greatest minds have spent tens of thousands of hours on the subject, and have come to no answer, yet you persist it is the only way.

I am going to post a few links (even though I HATE to) that I don't think you'll read, but you seem to like science talk.

This one is as short and sweet as they come. Twenty some-odd page slide show skimming the surface of the most basic problems with the evolutionary theory. Memento, you'll be happy to see that C.O.B.E. has made it into this document.
Evidence for God's Existence from Cosmology

This one is for evolutionary design issues:
Bad Designs in Biology? - Why the "Best" Examples Are Bad

I know it looks like a huge turd on modern scientific thought, but I assure you, you'll tell me it doesn't prove anything anyway. LOL.

How does something that is observed in everyday life require a giant leap of faith? Its been tested, observed and pretty much proven and documented. No leap of faith there.

Yeah, as far as we know right now, everything started at a single point, but that doesn't mean it was created by a sentient being.


I can assure you all of those "points" in those links are vastly refuted in my links I posted. Just read them. Evolution is observed fact.

 

[All Else Failed]

God means so much more than just a flawless being. He's the creator of the universe. If we seek, we will get the answers but you gotta have the right attitude and you gotta be willing to pay the effort even though sometimes you just don't get it. I wouldn't care who is more right or who provides the answer. The world is right here so go explore it but don't be arrogant cuz we are just human beings.

How are we arrogant for wanting knowledge?

 

[Magic P]

How does something that is observed in everyday life require a giant leap of faith? Its been tested, observed and pretty much proven and documented. No leap of faith there.

Yeah, as far as we know right now, everything started at a single point, but that doesn't mean it was created by a sentient being.


I can assure you all of those "points" in those links are vastly refuted in my links I posted. Just read them. Evolution is observed fact.

Oh God, evolution is a theory, it's not proven. If it is, I guess we wouldn't even be having this thread.

 

[dt3]

The thing I hate about the creationism argument is they always have the "you just have to have faith" fall-back, whereas science has to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt. Doesn't seem fair.

 

[All Else Failed]

Oh God, evolution is a theory, it's not proven. If it is, I guess we wouldn't even be having this thread.

Its also a theory that the earth goes around the sun, oops thats fact too.


The very fact we can observe micro and macro evolution today, and the fact that we have thousands of transitional fossils prove evolution exists, even in the most rudimentary forms. Where is your proof that god exists? There is none. Where is the proof that the genesis account is true? There is none.

 

[dt3]

How are we arrogant for wanting knowledge?

We're supposed to be blind, faithful sheep. God didn't put us here to learn!

 

[Magic P]

How are we arrogant for wanting knowledge?

I was talking about the attitude not the desire. If you are open minded and wanting knowledge, you wouldn't have made up your mind firmly cuz there is always a possibility to the opposite truth. If you say that evolutionary is a proven fact, I can say the same about Jesus.

 

[dt3]

I was talking about the attitude not the desire. If you are open minded and wanting knowledge, you wouldn't have made up your mind firmly cuz there is always a possibility to the opposite truth. If you say that evolutionary is a proven fact, I can say the same about Jesus.

Micro-evolution is very widely documented and scientifically accepted. The only proven fact about Jesus is that there once was a guy named that.