Do you believe the Bible to be fully true?

[SgtSpike]

Listen, I do not expected a firm believer to agree with me, the book has been altered from its original form, and no longer says what it was meant to say.

And I still say that it hasn't. Show me proof that it has been significantly altered from it's original form. I'm not sure where you are even getting that idea... lol. Who told you that it has been altered to no longer say what was originally meant?

In fact, as I posted earlier in this thread, there is proof showing the contrary - that it has been altered some, but very little, and still retains the overall message in each of the passages.

 

[The Joker]

Spike, who's to say it HASN'T Been altered?

It's only completely logical that after THOUSANDS of years of re writing and passing down that it has been significantly altered.

Have you seen some translations these days? Look up "Star wars: backstroke of the west" That's just a conversion from English To Japanese and Back to English.

See how horrible that is?

Now imagine this (I am just making these up and using as an example):

Hebrew
To Latin
To Hebrew Again
To English
And translated into every different language.

There's bound to be A LOT of mistakes.

 

[SgtSpike]

Spike, who's to say it HASN'T Been altered?

It's only completely logical that after THOUSANDS of years of re writing and passing down that it has been significantly altered.

Have you seen some translations these days? Look up "Star wars: backstroke of the west" That's just a conversion from English To Japanese and Back to English.

See how horrible that is?

Now imagine this (I am just making these up and using as an example):

Hebrew
To Latin
To Hebrew Again
To English
And translated into every different language.

There's bound to be A LOT of mistakes.

I'll quote the original post I made regarding this.

The Bible was inspired by God. What this means is, He was "there" telling those who were writing the Bible what to write.

Also, regarding the reliability of it being copied down by hand for generations... there were so many copies of the same text that we can compare to find discrepancies and take them out. I believe that the text we have now (in Hebrew and Greek) is VERY close to the original. I'd also say that because God is divine and ruler over everything, he could make sure there were no mistakes in it as it was copied down, or at least that mistakes would be caught and eliminated down the road.

I also remember hearing (don't have a source for this though) that various passages of the Bible were copied by many scribes at the same time to ensure there would be no mistakes, and that the quality of scribes was so highly sought after during their day that one mistake would cost them their job. So basically, they would always be dang sure they made every copy perfectly.

BTW, here's a link explaining more about the reliability of the Bible.
Is the Bible Reliable?

Also, the Bible has never been translated from the original Greek or Hebrew into Latin or any other language and then back again. The English version we have today is directly translated from Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that were copied down for generations from the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. They were never translated into Latin and then back again.

 

[Peter Parka]

How do you know the Bible was inspired by god?

 

[lumpenstein]

I'll quote the original post I made regarding this.



Also, the Bible has never been translated from the original Greek or Hebrew into Latin or any other language and then back again. The English version we have today is directly translated from Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that were copied down for generations from the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. They were never translated into Latin and then back again.

To quote:

In 382 AD, the early church father Jerome translated the New Testament from its original Greek into Latin.

Pre-Reformation History of the Bible

This is only nit-picking but you put too much emphasis on English, a relative newcomer to the Bible. Before that, what is called the bible had already gone through many translations and edits. I think your argument that what we today read as the word of god is categorically dissimilar to what was first recorded by the hand of man thousands of years ago. For example:

He put a note next to the Apocrypha Books, stating that he did not know whether or not they were inspired scripture, or just Jewish historical writings which accompanied the Old Testament.
The Apocrypha was kept as part of virtually every Bible scribed or printed from these early days until just 120 years ago, in the mid-1880’s, when it was removed from Protestant Bibles.

When I hear of doubts from a biblical scholar and word of removal of entire parts then I have to wonder what other butchery has befallen the bible.


This is a little historical fact that needs emphasising here. Two thousand years ago the English world was a cultural and religious backwater, a primitive world and newly conquered by the Roman Empire. Writing was non-existant and all knowledge was passed on word of mouth.

Your time-line is unclear and discontinuous. For many years only the Latin Vulgate was available, as any other language was forbidden by the church. Not until nearly 1500 was an English bible produced from Greek translations.

Any writing done in that time was labourious and time consuming and restricted to the wealthy, the state and the church. Imagine any work being copied by hand and faulty memory. Not until the Gutenberg press c. 1450 was the bible nailed down and even then revisions have been made. One can conclude that it would be folly for anybody to believe that what we read today is anything like what was the original bible, if such a thing even existed.

 

[SgtSpike]

Ok, yes, the Bible has been translated into Latin. But notice the line right before the one you quoted... it says we still have the original copies of the Greek and Hebrew.

By approximately 500 BC, the 39 Books that make up the Old Testament were completed, and continued to be preserved in Hebrew on scrolls. As we approach the last few centuries before Christ, the Jewish historical books known as the “Apocrypha” were completed, yet they were recorded in Greek rather than Hebrew. By the end of the First Century AD, the New Testament had been completed. It was preserved in Greek on Papyrus, a thin paper-like material made from crushed and flattened stalks of a reed-like plant. The word “Bible” comes from the same Greek root word as “papyrus”. The papyrus sheets were bound, or tied together in a configuration much more similar to modern books than to an elongated scroll.
These groupings of papyrus were called a “codex” (plural: “codices”). The oldest copies of the New Testament known to exist today are: The Codex Alexandrius and the Codex Sinaiticus in the British Museum Library in London, and the Codex Vaticanus in the Vatican. They date back to approximately the 300’s AD. In 315 AD, Athenasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, identified the 27 Books which we recognize today as the canon of New Testament scripture.

I can see how the whole Apocrypha thing would be confusing and cause disbelief, and I don't really have a good answer for that. I haven't studied the subject much. I have never believed it to be a part of God's inspired word, though perhaps they are good historical documents as your source says they may be.

Your concerns about mistakes being made while the Bible was being copied are valid, and I once has the same concerns. But, as I did research on the matter, I found that in almost all instances, the Bible was copied by multiple scribes at a time to avoid mistakes. They would ensure that all pages matched each other before moving along, and the scribes could be immediately fired over one mistake, so they were sure to do their job well. Not to mention that the written Word of God was so precious to those who have copied it in the earlier years that they were absolutely certain to do everything possible to preserve exactly what the text originally said.

We have found many many many copies of earlier and later copies of various passages of the Bible, and though they are not always perfect, the ideas of each passage have never deviated from the original intent. As the source I quoted earlier states, the variation is limited to simple spelling or grammar mistakes, and thus do not change the idea or interpretation of what is being said.

 

[The Joker]

Of course we still have the originals. Who translates them then throws them out?

But the bible as it is known Today. Is NOT the originals.

 

[SgtSpike]

Of course we still have the originals. Who translates them then throws them out?

But the bible as it is known Today. Is NOT the originals.

Well I think we all agree on that.

 

[deep impact]

i believe that bible has sent by god to jesus.

some parts of bible has been changed by other people.

i think that there ara different bibles. may be there are 4 bible.

am i right ?

 

[SgtSpike]

i believe that bible has sent by god to jesus.

some parts of bible has been changed by other people.

i think that there ara different bibles. may be there are 4 bible.

am i right ?

I guess it depends on your definition of the Bible... I mean, if you consider the Bible to be any book of "divine revelation" defined by any religion, then yes, there are many Bibles out there. As a Christian, I believe the only Bible is the 66 books of the Old and New Testament.

 

[lumpenstein]

Well I think we all agree on that.

WEll, if you agree that the bible we know today is not the original how can you believe it to be fully true? And it is not a matter of throwing out copies. Over time they get lost, damaged, burned, borrowed and not returned. In the ancient Greek centre of Alexandria the "books" on all ships entering the port were confiscated and copied. The original was returned to the ship. I wonder if an ancient copy of what was to become the bible ever passed through there?

 

[SgtSpike]

WEll, if you agree that the bible we know today is not the original how can you believe it to be fully true? And it is not a matter of throwing out copies. Over time they get lost, damaged, burned, borrowed and not returned. In the ancient Greek centre of Alexandria the "books" on all ships entering the port were confiscated and copied. The original was returned to the ship. I wonder if an ancient copy of what was to become the bible ever passed through there?

I've already posted the reasons three times in this thread! Go back and find it. In a nutshell though, they are copies that are likely about 95% accurate to the originals, with the only mistakes being grammar and spelling mistakes. I know that none of the ones we have are the very originals that were written though. But 1,000's of copies were made of those originals, and we have many of those copies. By comparing them, we can determine the rate and type of mistakes made during the copying process, and thus come up with a rather good picture about how different (or not different) the originals might have been.

 

[lumpenstein]

I've already posted the reasons three times in this thread! Go back and find it. In a nutshell though, they are copies that are likely about 95% accurate to the originals, with the only mistakes being grammar and spelling mistakes. I know that none of the ones we have are the very originals that were written though. But 1,000's of copies were made of those originals, and we have many of those copies. By comparing them, we can determine the rate and type of mistakes made during the copying process, and thus come up with a rather good picture about how different (or not different) the originals might have been.

Still don't make it true.

And your didn't work!

 

[Mase]

The only way to know if a translation was accurate, is if you can fluently speak and understand both the language it was translated into, and the language it was translated from.

 

[SgtSpike]

Still don't make it true.

And your didn't work!

No, but it is what I believe is true, and what is more than likely true.

The only way to know if a translation was accurate, is if you can fluently speak and understand both the language it was translated into, and the language it was translated from.

I agree with you, but at the same time, I also know there are many hundreds of thousands of people who know Hebrew, and a good deal who know Greek as well. It'd be one heck of a coverup to try and translate any of the Bible wrong and not have someone know about it, especially considering the number of people whose only job is to do exactly what you suggested - learn the language fluently, and translate the exact meaning of every word as best as they possibly can.

Not to mention all the 100's of concordances and study guides that give the exact Hebrew and Greek words used for every verse of the Bible. I mean, if one of those was wrong, the agreeance of the other 299 would suffice just as well.

 

[The Joker]

1) How is it more than likely true? I'd really like to know. Why are christians so stuck up as to think that their religion is the one that is most likely to be true?

2) We didn't say it was INTENTIONALLY mistranslated.

 

[lumpenstein]

How about "I am the Alpha and the Omega." How does that translate? In English and the Roman alphabet it makes no sense.

 

[The Joker]

*hi fives lumpenstein*

 

[Crunch]

the bible is a good read if you are sitting in jail....

i work with a guy who takes classes on bibliography or whatever it is....he states that the old testament, no one follows that anymore..... now the new testament.....thats kind of interesting.....

 

[lumpenstein]

*hi fives lumpenstein*

Hey dude! What's up?