Abortion... Your thoughts on why, why not.

[Butterfly]

Oh i agree , a life is a life, when that life actually begins is another matter.
Your answer intrigued me...it brings on a whole other argument really. Would you keep an man alive who suffered from a painful disease and wished to die? Would you even do that to a dog??
I guess what im trying to say is...if the quality of life is that painful, why put that child through it?
Id call that inhumane.

You call it inhumane, I call it right to life.

And as for euthanasia.... if the person CHOOSES to be killed, it's their CHOICE. What choice does a baby (or "bunch of cells" for those who prefer that) have.

 

[wednesday]

A dog doesnt get a choice...its called being humane.
And each to their own.
I would like to remind you what a horrific ordeal it is for a woman to have to go through this ordeal...people shouldnt judge unless they have been in that position.

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

The neural tube (which becomes the nervous system) forms within the first 4 weeks after conception. How do we know they feel no pain?

If you go for an ultrasound at around 6 weeks you will see an approximately 3mm long "bunch of cells", but you will HEAR a heartbeat.

Just 'cause there's a tube doesn't mean it's capable of feeling pain. It would need actual dorsal horns in the spinal cord, interconnecting nerve fibres (substantia gelatinosa), spinothalamic tract. And then for the actual brain parts it needs to receive a signal that pain is being felt, you would need the cortex, thalamus, cingulate cortex, limbic system, reticular formation...
And then normally after that, the brain makes you consciously aware of the pain, which I doubt a fetus may have..
By 12 weeks a baby has the vital organs it needs for when it is born, doesn't mean they are fully developed though, and so I doubt the sensation of pain will be felt in the first trimester by a bunch of cells/fetus.

And yes I learnt about this brain stuff in class..

 

[edgray]

A dog doesnt get a choice...its called being humane.
And each to their own.
I would like to remind you what a horrific ordeal it is for a woman to have to go through this ordeal...people shouldnt judge unless they have been in that position.

That's a very good point - being "pro-life" is really more to do with a lack of empathy than a belief in life. Most of us probably know at least 1 person that's had an abortion - I know one girl in particular who is still struggling with the decision she made several years on. Not being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes is behind most pro-life beliefs...

 

[edgray]

Just 'cause there's a tube doesn't mean it's capable of feeling pain. It would need actual dorsal horns in the spinal cord, interconnecting nerve fibres (substantia gelatinosa), spinothalamic tract. And then for the actual brain parts it needs to receive a signal that pain is being felt, you would need the cortex, thalamus, cingulate cortex, limbic system, reticular formation...
And then normally after that, the brain makes you consciously aware of the pain, which I doubt a fetus may have..
By 12 weeks a baby has the vital organs it needs for when it is born, doesn't mean they are fully developed though, and so I doubt the sensation of pain will be felt in the first trimester by a bunch of cells/fetus.

And yes I learnt about this brain stuff in class..

Go Kim!!

 

[Butterfly]

Just 'cause there's a tube doesn't mean it's capable of feeling pain. It would need actual dorsal horns in the spinal cord, interconnecting nerve fibres (substantia gelatinosa), spinothalamic tract. And then for the actual brain parts it needs to receive a signal that pain is being felt, you would need the cortex, thalamus, cingulate cortex, limbic system, reticular formation...
And then normally after that, the brain makes you consciously aware of the pain, which I doubt a fetus may have..
By 12 weeks a baby has the vital organs it needs for when it is born, doesn't mean they are fully developed though, and so I doubt the sensation of pain will be felt in the first trimester by a bunch of cells/fetus.

And yes I learnt about this brain stuff in class..

But do we know for sure?
How do we know there isn't a primal 'sense' that science can't explain?

 

[edgray]

But do we know for sure?
How do we know there isn't a primal 'sense' that science can't explain?

something supernatural?!! :24:

 

[Peter Parka]

That's a very good point - being "pro-life" is really more to do with a lack of empathy than a belief in life. Most of us probably know at least 1 person that's had an abortion - I know one girl in particular who is still struggling with the decision she made several years on. Not being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes is behind most pro-life beliefs...

If anything, all that does is back up the pro lifers here.

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

I know there is such a condition where people cannot feel pain at all, so it must be something sciencey if we know how that works?

 

[edgray]

If anything, all that does is back up the pro lifers here.

It really shouldn't alter their arguments either way though if they really claim to care about a little lump of tissue about the size of a jelly baby...

If they thought about it, really hard, and put themselves in someone else's shoes and see what a tough decision it is, maybe they can show a little more sympathy.

 

[hart]

I know there is such a condition where people cannot feel pain at all, so it must be something sciencey if we know how that works?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4905892.stm

This may help....I'm don't have opinion re: fetus can or cannot feel pain, myself.

 

[KimmyCharmeleon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4905892.stm

This may help....I'm don't have opinion re: fetus can or cannot feel pain, myself.

Not a bad article. Most abortions happen in the first trimester don't they though? It would make sense.

It said that pro-life groups reckon fetuses respond to stimuli from 20 weeks which is in the second trimester and probably when they are looking more like a baby and which by then you probably wouldn't kill right?

I was only saying that up to 12 weeks they are most likely to not feel anything which means that if an abortion was performed, the cells/fetus would not feel anything.

 

[ClicheGuevara]

What I find intriguing is that most pro lifers(not all!) are right wing christian repubs. .The same people who are vocal about the government not telling them what to do and all. Yet they are completely fine with the government outlawing something that is a personal choice.

I'm not saying I don't think abortions are bad, I'm saying it is not your right or the government's right to make that choice for someone else. No matter how strongly you feel about it.

 

[Peter Parka]

It really shouldn't alter their arguments either way though if they really claim to care about a little lump of tissue about the size of a jelly baby...

If they thought about it, really hard, and put themselves in someone else's shoes and see what a tough decision it is, maybe they can show a little more sympathy.

Your friend who aborted obviously considered it worth more than that or she wouldn't be having problems dealing with it several years down the road.

What I find intriguing is that most pro lifers(not all!) are right wing christian repubs. .The same people who are vocal about the government not telling them what to do and all. Yet they are completely fine with the government outlawing something that is a personal choice.

I'm not saying I don't think abortions are bad, I'm saying it is not your right or the government's right to make that choice for someone else. No matter how strongly you feel about it.

Well I must be one of the very few pro lifers who is neither right wing or religious.
I just think that when it comes to harming or killing another human being, I respect peoples freedom for the right to live over peoples freedom for the right to kill.

 

[edgray]

Your friend who aborted obviously considered it worth more than that or she wouldn't be having problems dealing with it several years down the road.

that's the whole point tho - it was hers to care about, not anyone else's. It's not a decision thats taken lightly.

 

[Butterfly]

Well I must be one of the very few pro lifers who is neither right wing or religious.
I just think that when it comes to harming or killing another human being, I respect peoples freedom for the right to live over peoples freedom for the right to kill.

+1
I am not religious, I'm not a Christian, and I'm not right wing.

 

[ClicheGuevara]

Your friend who aborted obviously considered it worth more than that or she wouldn't be having problems dealing with it several years down the road.




Well I must be one of the very few pro lifers who is neither right wing or religious.
I just think that when it comes to harming or killing another human being, I respect peoples freedom for the right to live over peoples freedom for the right to kill.

Note, I did say not all..and that was really meant for those here in the states as well.

 

[ClicheGuevara]

+1
I am not religious, I'm not a Christian, and I'm not right wing.

goes for you too, when you read about pro lifer's here in the states..It's almost always christian right wingers.

 

[retro]

To further elaborate on my thoughts... I am pro-choice as far as the law is concerned right now. That being said, I have a moral objection to abortion, as I believe that in doing so you are killing an innocent life. Late term abortions are particularly heinous to me, as in most cases that child could survive outside the womb, and yet the mother had them killed anyway. As far as the law is concerned though, in the US, I believe that the issue should be a states rights issue, each state has the authority to allow or prohibit abortion, it should not be a federal issue.

Unfortunately, as has been mentioned already, too many people view abortion as just another form of birth control, and decide that they can be as irresponsible as they want because they can simply go down to the clinic and take care of their "problem".

 

[retro]

For the record, I am a Christian... however, I do not consider myself to be religious by any stretch of the imagination. I'm also a Libertarian, so I am most decidedly not "right wing".