92 yr. old WWII vet kills home invader

[The Man]

I read the link..it does little to support an argument.
The old man used a rifle...not a pistol
The NZ bank robbers also non pistol crimes

 

[robdawg1]

I'm hoping that you have a better grasp of statistics than the poster who mistakenly refers to himself as The Man.

New Zealand has a very high gun ownership ratio, no Second Amendment, and very low firearms offending rates. The common understanding is that handguns serve no useful purpose, shotguns and rifles are for hunting and pest control, and if you so much as point a gun at another person, you are probably committing an offence.Yes, firearms crime occurs, but in no way are the rates comparable to what happens in the US.

Here's some reading to back up the facts.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10660886

I try to keep up with my statistics and proofs. I am aware that NZ has legal gun ownership, however in the US the 2nd ammendment has often been used as an impediment to passing protective restrictions on who can own guns, and what type of guns can be owned. I am very aware that our per capita murders are overwhelmingly caused by guns, more specifically hand guns. we are roughly at 69% of all homicides in the US caused by guns. I am also aware that murde3r sin the US is in the 10s of thousands while in NZ is much lower poss only in the hundreds...I am trying to find exact figures. It shows more to the difference in size of population than in gun ownership to crime lstatistics...

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

I am also aware that murde3r sin the US is in the 10s of thousands while in NZ is much lower poss only in the hundreds...I am trying to find exact figures. It shows more to the difference in size of population than in gun ownership to crime lstatistics...

I'm sorry, but size of population isnt a factor when you compare number of homicides per head of population.

This is a historical list of countries by firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in one year.

United States

4.14

New Zealand

0.17

If the populations of New Zealand and the USA were the same, you'd be 25 times more likely to lose your life to gun crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

 

[The Man]

Well done
Perhaps the difference lies in we shoot burglars who place our lives in peril and in NZ they dont

 

[robdawg1]

so what can we relate that to? what has NZ learned that USA hasnt. because we are relatively the same age in terms of length of time we have been a nation.

 

[The Man]

so what can we relate that to? what has NZ learned that USA hasnt. because we are relatively the same age in terms of length of time we have been a nation.

It is a difference in value teaching while growing up....The gun isnt the blame its the person behind the trigger.
NZ has us beat as far as the teaching of the morality of taking a human life

 

[robdawg1]

thats great, so NZ has more people per capita that know the value of human life, and therefor the percentage of their murders and gun crimes is lower. That being said in the US, the number of criminals with guns per capita is validation enough for me to not only own a gun, but use it to defend myself in the event someone kicks my door in. I dont need to secure an intent if you have invaded my home in force ( with 2 people in tow) and have forcibly entered my residence (i.e. kicking the door in). You have commited to an act that puts myself and my family in bodily danger, and I have the right morally and legally to use lethal force to protect my family and myself.

 

[The Man]

thats great, so NZ has more people per capita that know the value of human life, and therefor the percentage of their murders and gun crimes is lower. That being said in the US, the number of criminals with guns per capita is validation enough for me to not only own a gun, but use it to defend myself in the event someone kicks my door in. I dont need to secure an intent if you have invaded my home in force ( with 2 people in tow) and have forcibly entered my residence (i.e. kicking the door in). You have commited to an act that puts myself and my family in bodily danger, and I have the right morally and legally to use lethal force to protect my family and myself.

Which I fully agree with...and if that raises the death percentage a tad..it is a justified number :thumbup

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

...and if that raises the death percentage a tad..it is a justified number :thumbup

multiplies it by a factor of 24. Only a fool would describe that as a tad, or justified.

Hey robdawg, I've got a sneaking suspicion that 'burglary' as a legal term may differ from USA to NZ.....what constitutes a burglary in American Law?

 

[The Man]

multiplies it by a factor of 24. Only a fool would describe that as a tad, or justified.

Hey robdawg, I've got a sneaking suspicion that 'burglary' as a legal term may differ from USA to NZ.....what constitutes a burglary in American Law?

Him shooting an intruder would not raise the percentage by 24 times.
Additionally if you dont feel rob would have a justified shooting ...He is going to disagree

 

[robdawg1]

multiplies it by a factor of 24. Only a fool would describe that as a tad, or justified.

Hey robdawg, I've got a sneaking suspicion that 'burglary' as a legal term may differ from USA to NZ.....what constitutes a burglary in American Law?

Burglary is the criminal offense of breaking and entering any dwelling or building illegally with the intent to commit a felony or crime. Home Invasion is what this was by definition, and that is generally an unauthorized and forceful entry into a dwelling usually while the home owner/resident is present.

definitions.uslegal.com

 

[robdawg1]

Additionally if you dont feel rob would have a justified shooting ...He is going to disagree

wouldn't you?

 

[The Man]

wouldn't you?

My position is its justified ..as your scenario was pretty much a description of what the old man endured

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Him shooting an intruder would not raise the percentage by 24 times.
Additionally if you dont feel rob would have a justified shooting ...He is going to disagree

I'll be charitable and assume that you're drunk.

 

[robdawg1]

My position is its justified ..as your scenario was pretty much a description of what the old man endured

I agree! I fully believe he was justified.

 

[The Man]

I'll be charitable and assume that you're drunk.

Assume nothing other that your faulty math..if he shot an intruder it would not raise the percentage 24 times.

 

[The Man]

I agree! I fully believe he was justified.

The town does as well..people were coming over to show their support

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Well done
Perhaps the difference lies in we shoot burglars who place our lives in peril and in NZ they dont

And yet, we're perfectly within our rights to do so............

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM328268.html

So, in summary our definitions under law are much the same, and our rights to self defence are pretty much the same, and both countries have more than enough firearms....so why do your criminals carry firearms far more frequently, and why do your citizens feel safer if they have firearms of their own for self-defence purposes?

It doesn't seem to be that brilliant an idea if you are 24 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE SHOT TO DEATH!

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Assume nothing other that your faulty math..if he shot an intruder it would not raise the percentage 24 times.

Seriously dude, if you can't differentiate between overall national statistics and individual cases, stay off the internet.

 

[robdawg1]

And yet, we're perfectly within our rights to do so............

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM328268.html

So, in summary our definitions under law are much the same, and our rights to self defence are pretty much the same, and both countries have more than enough firearms....so why do your criminals carry firearms far more frequently, and why do your citizens feel safer if they have firearms of their own for self-defence purposes?

It doesn't seem to be that brilliant an idea if you are 24 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE SHOT TO DEATH!

we hashed this out. NZ has something we dont. I also am unaware of the amount of random violence that NZ experiences? also Gang related crime? Thats something else we deal with here alot!