92 yr. old WWII vet kills home invader

[The Man]

And yet, we're perfectly within our rights to do so............

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM328268.html

So, in summary our definitions under law are much the same, and our rights to self defence are pretty much the same, and both countries have more than enough firearms....so why do your criminals carry firearms far more frequently, and why do your citizens feel safer if they have firearms of their own for self-defence purposes?

It doesn't seem to be that brilliant an idea if you are 24 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE SHOT TO DEATH!

Already explained by myself in a prior post

It is a difference in value teaching while growing up....The gun isnt the blame its the person behind the trigger.
NZ has us beat as far as the teaching of the morality of taking a human life

Its rather simple actually and shouldn't need a second explanation

 

[The Man]

Seriously dude, if you can't differentiate between overall national statistics and individual cases, stay off the internet.

You seem to have trouble remembering what you type

Rob

thats great, so NZ has more people per capita that know the value of human life, and therefor the percentage of their murders and gun crimes is lower. That being said in the US, the number of criminals with guns per capita is validation enough for me to not only own a gun, but use it to defend myself in the event someone kicks my door in. I dont need to secure an intent if you have invaded my home in force ( with 2 people in tow) and have forcibly entered my residence (i.e. kicking the door in). You have commited to an act that puts myself and my family in bodily danger, and I have the right morally and legally to use lethal force to protect my family and myself.

Me

Which I fully agree with...and if that raises the death percentage a tad..it is a justified number

YOU

multiplies it by a factor of 24. Only a fool would describe that as a tad, or justified.

One shooting incidence will not raise the percentage 24 times..sorry we are a populous nation

 

[robdawg1]

TM, he quite clearly meant that our "retribution" attitude raised the alltogether national level by 24 percent not the idividual case.

 

[The Man]

TM, he quite clearly meant that our "retribution" attitude raised the alltogether national level by 24 percent not the idividual case.

Then he should type what he means ...I cant respond to what he means..only what he types

 

[The Man]

See he lumped you in with the 24 times....yours would be a single case and would affect the ratio very very little.
He saw a place to jab in with "24 times"...but was very sloppy and juvenile in doing such
No harm done however.

 

[The Man]

But anyway...KD is right we do have a high rate of homicide compared to NZ for which I have already explained {twice}

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Then he should type what he means ...I cant respond to what he means..only what he types

English. Statistics. Debating. Any other subjects you need additional help with?:24:

 

[robdawg1]

ok, so my question KD, what are the Gang related issues in NZ? What are the random violent acts stats?

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

92-year-old WWII vet not charged after killing home intruder

This is why we need the second amendment.

Second amendment does not cover this event. Rightly or wrongly this event is covered by your right to defend yourself. We have the same rights here, but we get by without killing nearly as many people.It's great.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

ok, so my question KD, what are the Gang related issues in NZ? What are the random violent acts stats?

Gangs in NZ....Mostly pale imitations of the American gang sub-culture.Usually ethnic minorities.

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/cib/organised_crime.html

This answer would seem consistent with what I have experienced here in 25 years

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080618064803AAVjuhw

the heavyweight data

http://www.ofcanz.govt.nz/publications/organised-crime-new-zealand-2010

 

[robdawg1]

So from what I can understand, your position is more likely a product of your culture. Whereas, being an american, I am more likely to understand the response of the 92 year old man, you are more likely to be shocked by it.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

The most recent government-released statistics that I can find which relate NZ crime to US crime on using the same methodology come from 12 years ago.

http://www.courts.govt.nz/publicati...000/new-zealand-compared-to-usa-violent-crime

Resolution statistics
Between 1998 and 2007, the police became more effective at resolving crimes such that the resolution rate has gone from about 36% of all reported crimes to nearly 50%. For serious violence the resolution rate has gone from 71% to 80% and the murder resolution rate has gone from 62% to 91%. In the longer term, the percentages of resolved murder cases will be even higher as the Police report, that over time, they resolve close to 100% of all murder cases reported to them.[SUP][12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_Zealand[/SUP]

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

So from what I can understand, your position is more likely a product of your culture. Whereas, being an american, I am more likely to understand the response of the 92 year old man, you are more likely to be shocked by it.

that would be pretty fair....but I'd suggest that your close ties with law enforcement would put you into a somewhat distorted daily reality.

I've never been a victim of crime,can't recall the last time there was violent crime in this town, and have rarely seen identifiable gang members in public. A significant proportion of crime is committed by a small section of the community, but it's usually against their own kind, or against the police. People like me never see it.

 

[Mercury]

A significant proportion of crime is committed by a small section of the community, but it's usually against their own kind, or against the police. People like me never see it.

This just made me think of something ...

Is it possible that here in the U.S. we are more afraid of each other because of the constant display of news stories regarding gun violence and ergo, feel that we need to be protected from one-another by owning a firearm?

What news stories are typically seen in NZ?

 

[The Man]

So from what I can understand, your position is more likely a product of your culture. Whereas, being an american, I am more likely to understand the response of the 92 year old man, you are more likely to be shocked by it.

I think I know what is going on rob{at least with this particular case}He doesnt understand the value of a home invasion verses a tip toe burglary while you are asleep IMO.

Kicking in the door is to go to the people {as sleep is no longer a factor}
When someone kicks in your door your life is in danger.
A tip toe burglary is to avoid the people.
But even then a tip toe entrance still does not mean they may not go to the people.
But a door kick is apparent.
Either way its a danger..but the kick in invasion is meant for invader and resident to meet.
Killed and dragged off into the woods is a high possibility....dead men cant testify

 

[robdawg1]

that would be pretty fair....but I'd suggest that your close ties with law enforcement would put you into a somewhat distorted daily reality.

I've never been a victim of crime,can't recall the last time there was violent crime in this town, and have rarely seen identifiable gang members in public. A significant proportion of crime is committed by a small section of the community, but it's usually against their own kind, or against the police. People like me never see it.

You may be right. I have a more first hand view of what people who kick in doors and storm in plan to do. I think that maybe our views are based on our experiences. I am more likely to defend the old guy for his reaction because, in situations i have witnessed, it would have prevented the victims who have been shot/stabbed/beaten/killed from being victimized.

 

[robdawg1]

This just made me think of something ...

Is it possible that here in the U.S. we are more afraid of each other because of the constant display of news stories regarding gun violence and ergo, feel that we need to be protected from one-another by owning a firearm?

What news stories are typically seen in NZ?

I also think that per capita violent crime is higher in the US, so that contributes to the fear of citizens, and produces more gun owners to use their weapon to protect themselves. I think that the media in combination with actual crime rate are big factors, but in my personal experience, the media doesnt usually find out half of what happens... media only reports about 1/4 of events that actually happen in our area, because they dont find out about more than that. Perfect example, a newbie dispatcher was floored because she thought our crime was just some occasional burglarys and a domestic here and there. she had no idea that robbery and shootings were weekly events in our town. It matters what you see and where you come from!

 

[Mercury]

I also think that per capita violent crime is higher in the US, so that contributes to the fear of citizens, and produces more gun owners to use their weapon to protect themselves. I think that the media in combination with actual crime rate are big factors, but in my personal experience, the media doesnt usually find out half of what happens... media only reports about 1/4 of events that actually happen in our area, because they dont find out about more than that. Perfect example, a newbie dispatcher was floored because she thought our crime was just some occasional burglarys and a domestic here and there. she had no idea that robbery and shootings were weekly events in our town. It matters what you see and where you come from!

A good point. You seriously have (or had) weekly violent crimes in your town? Damn! That would be enough to make one pretty damn edgy and wanting to own a tool used for self defense. I definitely believe in the statistics that U.S. gun crime is EXTREMELY high, I just was wondering if it might be a circle of fear that might be causing it. Now that is interesting ... weekly events ... where is this? (if you don't mind sharing).

 

[Accountable]

This just made me think of something ...

Is it possible that here in the U.S. we are more afraid of each other because of the constant display of news stories regarding gun violence and ergo, feel that we need to be protected from one-another by owning a firearm?

What news stories are typically seen in NZ?

Sheep assault? :jk

But seriously folks ....

I always find it odd when I read someone proudly defending a stance to restrict individual liberty. At best, I view it as a sad necessity (and indication of a flaw in society) that should only be used with extreme caution.

As for the difference in crime rates, I suggest one reason lies in population density. We have more people per square mile than NZ, and I'd bet that our cities are far more crowded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...d_dependent_territories_by_population_density

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Sheep assault? :jk

But seriously folks ....

I always find it odd when I read someone proudly defending a stance to restrict individual liberty. At best, I view it as a sad necessity (and indication of a flaw in society) that should only be used with extreme caution.

Given the failings demonstrated by countries with unrestricted and unmonitored access access to firearms, it makes perfect sense to me.

We have numerous laws to protect us from the less responsible. Most of us are not stupid enough to try and drive while paralytic drunk.
We have laws to remind us that it's not a good idea even though most of us are smart enough to figure it out for ourselves.
Does that constitute an infringement of our liberties? I'd say quite the opposite. It gives us the liberty of knowing that if other people choose to breach common sense, the law enforcement system will most likely catch them.It doesn't affect us, because we were never going to drink drive anyway.

Similar situation here.You're allowed firearms that are relevant to your requirements, on the understanding, that the playing field is levelled by the laws that make it much harder for criminals to obtain weapons that suit their purposes. Consequently, in the closest city to where I live, there is only ONE police vehicle that carries a firearm on board, and that ONE firearm is secured in the safe in the trunk for most of its useful life. Our cops and our security guards do not NEED to carry weapons on their hips, because the police consider the current firearms legislation adequate to manage the risk of criminal use of firearms. I have the freedom and liberty of knowing that my chances of dying or being robbed at gunpoint are massively reduced in comparison to countries that allow a free-for-all approach to the tools of terrorism.

If being at 25 times the risk of being shot is the price to pay for the right to own a handgun, I'm quite comfortable with not having that privilege.
Overseas experience has shown that the price of free-range weapons is a siege mentality. I don't want to live in a country that thinks it's okay to execute burglars simply because they may be armed. Perhaps that's because the average New Zealander will never come across a criminal who can pick up a gun and ammunition for a few dollars in a parking lot.