What is Islam? - a brief investigation

[Sylviane88]

am a follower of Jesus Christ.......

Islam is a branch of the same tree leading to God.

The thing about Islam that turns me off is the fact that Muslims do not accept the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

what is the most accepted easily by your mind?:
-God crucified?
-Someone who looked like the prophet Jesus was crucified?
the choice is for you.

then, i have another question: i didn't find anything in the Gospels shows that Jesus said " I'm God" or " I'm the son of God", can you tell me some?

if you can't, then surely the miracle of Jesus lead you to believe that. Muslims believe the miracle of Jesus too, The problem here is that Moses also has miracle which are believed by both christians and muslims, however, he was only prophet ( in both christianity and islam) , not GOD !!! ...

Islam in my opinion is wrong and should be banned in our country. THIS is just my opinion before you start flaming and deleting!

thank you for your opinion

UK has a queen who is head of the church of england, not head of the mosque of england,

we should not have Islam in uk..

if you want to follow Islam, noone is stopping you. Just go somewhere where its a religion, dont impose or force it on others.

I will not build a church in Iraq, and I will respect your laws and relgion, do the same for me and my country please.

Forgive me, Sylar, but this time it is stupid to say so. Indeed, there are churches in Iraq and Liban, egypt and algeria, morocco and so on ! which are greatly respected and no one stops them !

There are already churches in Iraq, and why do you say Iraq? Why don't you say Israel which is a lot closer to where Islam started, oh wait - we already kicked them out of there and built loads of churches.

Thank you, Zorak, you're right 100/100.

If there was proof I still wouldn't be muslim, religion just doesn't seem worth an eternity in heaven...

Adrianna, no one forces you to adopt Islam, you're free, only remember this well: you're not stronger than GOD.

There is no formal standard for gematria in English, because unlike Hebrew and Greek, English letters do not have a corresponding numerical value. I therefore use the simplest possible method when playing around with this:

a=1, b=2, c=3 etc etc... z=26. Additionally, any phrases that I equate must have the same number of characters.

For example: JESUS=74 and is 5 letters long. CROSS=74 and is 5 letters long. You see? A lot of Christians know that one - here is one of my own...

Revelation 1:11 (Jesus speaking) - "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last..."

JESUS CHRIST (total: 151 / length: 11 letters)
A Z FIRST LAST (total: 151 / length: 11 letters)

Beat that

Brother, I know you're just kidding, because in Islam and in Quran there are thousands of examples like this, but we don't use them here to prove that Islam is the truth !!!

Muslims deny the crucifixion. The true enemies of Christ are those who deny Christ......and Christianity tells us to love our enemies.....very powerful.

I suppose I believe you, but I didn't understand this state in the bible (gospel):

Jesus said: ""Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.""
Matthew 10:34 - 36

 

[Goat Whisperer]

Adrianna, no one forces you to adopt Islam, you're free, only remember this well: you're not stronger than GOD.

I have an interest in the substution of numbers for letters, a form of cryptography I guess, called gematria.

The people in hell seem a lot more fun then the people in heaven *shrugs*

 

[wednesday]

Sacrilege bri!!!Say 5 hail marys...and brush urteeth!:jk

 

[Sylviane88]

It is also the case if All is the number infinity my friend! But nice try

Well Jesus is neither "0" nor Infinity

I will try to be of help in your thread where I can, but I am not going to try to defend concepts to you that I have no firm belief in. In New Zealand we often call each other "brother" as well by the way, male and female, but we shorten it to "bro".

Thank you .. and I'm french .. not english

 

[Sylviane88]

The concept of the Trinity seems hard for you to grasp. It is hard for many Christians to grasp too

Brother;
The concept of trinity is false, i'll tell some states from the bible which show so.

I do not have a fixed belief about the truth of Christianity

I can help you in your investigation to fixe your belief by some useful links:

Jesus and the Father are two Separate Beings !!!
is JESUS GOD? - What John & Paul say
is Jesus All-Powerful?, and All-Knowing?
Nine Undeniable Contradictions in the Bible
Is Jesus The Son Of God? - TRINITY
Was Jesus Crucified? - The Original Sin
Confutation of the "Evidence" for Jesus Divinity

and finally this:

JESUS in Christianity, JESUS in Islam: Which account is historically correct?

 

[nTejas]

Christianity vs Muslim, Muslim vs Christianity. If your turned off, no wonder, your Christian. When it comes to the truth of the Gospels, this is an assumption or faith, your choice.

As I've said before, arguing your religion is more truthful in itself is a waist of time. You may feel it is the truth, but for those undecided, truth needs to be backed up with some facts and a story in a book does not usually qualify.

am NOT a member of any religion......am a follower of Jesus Christ according to the Gospels.....label me however you like........and am NOT "arguing" anything .....am only stating that:

SACRIFICE = LOVE

 

[nTejas]

then, i have another question: i didn't find anything in the Gospels shows that Jesus said " I'm God" or " I'm the son of God", can you tell me some?

Never said Jesus Chris is God.

My belief is that we are all children of God.

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Ephesians 4:6

 

[Andre]

Thank you for the links Sylviane! I read the pages but there was nothing really new to me there - a good refresher though. I noticed a STARTLING error in those refutations, if they are considered together as a disproof of Jesus' divinity.

The gospel of John makes it quite clear that Jesus is part of the Godhead, and the only two attempts to invalidate this are basically worthless:



From: The Hidden Truth - JESUS in Christianity, JESUS in Islam: Which account is historically correct?

"If Jesus had said these things, the other gospels would have surely recorded them. But they did not, because he did not say these things."

From: The Hidden Truth - Confutation of the "Evidence" for Jesus Divinity

"However, these statements were not made by Jesus Christ, nor were they attributed to him by the author of the Gospel according to John."



The book of John was written by Jesus' "beloved disciple". We have no firm knowledge about who this might have been, but please consider that a disciple whom Jesus loved more than the others might have been privy to some secrets, or perhaps even been trusted more by Jesus to accurately record imparted knowledge.

To attempt to dismiss the statements by ASSUMING Jesus did not make them himself is saying that everything that isn't recorded as having come directly come out of Jesus' mouth that is contained in the bible is basically worthless. You will NOT find any support for that idea amongst Christians brother!



"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." - John 1:1-3 (NIV)

"He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." - John 1:10 (NIV)

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
- John 10:14 (NIV)



The Greek for "Word" is Logos, which means things like "reason" and "logic". Any Christian scholar will tell you that Jesus Christ is the Logos.

The fact that all things were made by the Logos according to this passage is one reason why I half-jokingly referred to Jesus as the "builder" earlier in this thread. I referred to God the Father as the "architect" in part because of this utterance of Jesus:

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." - John 5:30 (NIV)

Once again, I must apologise for being flippant with these terms, but they are perhaps a useful simplification.

According to all Christians I would think, Jesus follows the plans that the Father has made.



"Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."" - John 14:8-10 (NIV)

 

[pladecalvo]

because it is true

If it were true you wouldn't be required to have 'faith' would you. You may believe it to be true but that doesn't make it true.....any more than people who believe it true that the Earth is flat makes it so.

I guess an example like the scientific miracles of Quran will do

Yes it would...if the "miracles" could be verified by independent, peer reviewed sources...rather than an Islamic website.

the answer here is a long investigation, not simply an opinion ! ... you should do a comparison

You seem to think that YOU are the only one to have studied these matters. I'll wager that I and others on this forum have studied religions for longer than you have actually been on this planet.

 

[Sylviane88]

the answer here is a long investigation, not simply an opinion ! ... you should do a comparison

You seem to think that YOU are the only one to have studied these matters. I'll wager that I and others on this forum have studied religions for longer than you have actually been on this planet.

You're wrong brother, I never said so, i said:" the answer here is a long investigation" but I didn't say: "By me", I know anyone interested here did so. secondly you forgot what i said after: "you should do a comparison" that means it's you who have to study every religion, and -by your own reasoning- you choose the true God.

Yes it would...if the "miracles" could be verified by independent, peer reviewed sources...rather than an Islamic website.

If you read some article from the link above, you will see that the scientific miracles of Quran are actually verified by independent ... not just an opinion of an islamic website !!! ... and don't forget !, scientific miracles of the Quran are not the only evidence that islam is the truth ! ... there are so many other proofs, such as the miracles of the prophet Muhammad .. the bibles prophecies of Muhammad ..the historical miracles of the Quran .. the scientific miracles of the prophet Muhammad sayings ( some of them) .. the logicals proofs about god existence just like in Islam .. and so on....

hmm .. today chrisitianity is not one religion !! there are things believed by some christians, but not believed by the others !!! ... you can even see that some sects accuse the other with disbelief, therefore, you may find that some not understood things in Christianity are not believed by some christians ... Or even they -christians- may adopt your opinion, although it can be against christianity.

In John 14:9 Jesus is quoted as saying: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” This is often misunderstood to mean that Jesus is God. But Jesus clearly said that no one has seen God at any time (John 5:37). Those who say that Jesus is God, are disagreeing with what Jesus himself said. If Jesus was God why would he say to the people looking at him that they never saw God? And why would the author of the 1st Letter of John in the Bible, writing some seventy years after Jesus was taken up, say that no one had ever seen God (John 4:12) although he knew that multitudes had already seen Jesus? The meaning of John 14:9 is not that Jesus is God, but that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus teaches about God. This meaning is confirmed by John 1:18 where the writer says that no one had ever seen God, but Jesus had made God known to the people. In the 17th Chapter of the same Gospel, Jesus declared that eternal life means knowing that the Father whom Jesus worshipped is the only true God and that Jesus is the Messiah who was sent by God.

 

[Minor Axis]

scientific miracles of the Quran are not the only evidence that islam is the truth

Is your brain clean yet?

 

[Andre]

hmm .. today chrisitianity is not one religion !! there are things believed by some christians, but not believed by the others !!!

I completely agree - it's a shambles in some ways - but in matters so important as the true nature of God such disagreements are inevitable when all we have to rely on are ancient texts surely.



Anyway - is it possible for you to find a better refutation of John 1:1-2?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."



The opening verses of John clearly describe Jesus as being WITH God and ACTUALLY God at the same time. Jesus did not claim to be God the Father - and as you know very well, Jesus claimed to be less than God the Father.

Being part of God, with God and less than God at the same time is not too difficult a concept really. If being God is a NATURE, then any emanation of God, such as his son, could also be God, and be with God and less than God in the same way that a human son is HUMAN, with his father, and less than his father (in one sense).

Two thousand years ago it was a commonly understood idea, particularly in Gnostic circles, where God is thought of as different emanations of the source, or Æons, and each successive emanation was less powerful than the preceeding emanation. No lesser Æon was the Supreme God, but all of the Æons considered as a whole WERE God, as was the initial being!

The passage about Logos is VERY reminiscent of Gnostic terminology by the way - I am not bringing in irrelevant religious ideas.

 

[Sylviane88]

Is your brain clean yet?

Yes .. it is totally washed

 

[Sylviane88]

Anyway - is it possible for you to find a better refutation of John 1:1-2?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

jesus says:
“Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:1)

 

[Andre]

jesus says:
“Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:1)

Thank you for a very good example (pardon the pun). It is Mark 10:18 not 10:1, but I am sure that was just an innocent error.

The precise nature of the relationship between Jesus and God the Father is very confusing. Jesus himself claimed to have a good (perfect?) knowledge of the workings of it, but we haven't had the details transmitted very well as yet (and probably never will of course). However, the belief that God exists in three persons in the form of the Holy Trinity is accepted by the VAST majority of Christians.

I believe that it would only be natural for Jesus to refer to God the Father as "God", in so far as he knew that The Father was the Supreme Being.

I have NO vested interest in this conversation at all. Indeed if you are right I would be doing you a great disservice by attempting to dissuade you from your beliefs by preaching a false belief. I am merely trying to point out factual innaccuracies as they arise, such as God being a sheep with seven horns.

 

[pladecalvo]

-by your own reasoning- you choose the true God.

By my own reasoning I have found no gods.

If you read some article from the link above, you will see that the scientific miracles of Quran are actually verified by independent ... not just an opinion of an islamic website !!!

Then I must have missed it. Perhaps you would be good enough to point it out.

 

[Sylviane88]

Thank you for a very good example (pardon the pun). It is Mark 10:18 not 10:1, but I am sure that was just an innocent error.

Oh sorry ! thank you for your correcting the error

I have NO vested interest in this conversation at all

Brother, I know you're not christian ! but I'll consider you as a christian

The precise nature of the relationship between Jesus and God the Father is very confusing.

That's right

Indeed if you are right I would be doing you a great disservice by attempting to dissuade you from your beliefs by preaching a false belief.

I agree

 

[Sylviane88]

Then I must have missed it. Perhaps you would be good enough to point it out.

here it is:
The Religion of Islam - Category: The Scientific Miracles of the Holy Quran

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

Here's what I'm saying:

Saying Islamic Fundementalists do not support Jihad is basically like saying GW doesn't back Big Oil.

Since recorded history, both Islamic and Christian religions have promoted violence to further the cause of each sect, obviously you have read nothing of the crusades.

If you are going to make a comment about the Isreal Secret Police taking pictures from an apartment on 9/11 then you had better have some credible evidence, else it's not eligible for debate, to me that sounds like more fundementalist B/S that Islam pushes on young people to turn them against the west/Isreal.

If you DON'T think that Islam is oppressive to it women then you don't know any REAL followers of Islam, I know scores and scores of Islamic followers, some ivy league educated who have submissive wives and I was told that women in Islam have a place, and it's to be hidden and not heard.

Personally I think your insisting that we don't agree with you is ignorance on our part says scores about your own.

Peace

 

[pladecalvo]

here it is:
The Religion of Islam - Category: The Scientific Miracles of the Holy Quran

Well let's take the one about mountains being "pegs" for the Earth.

Your website quotes the Qur'an as saying:
“Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?” (Quran 78:6-7)

Whereas my translation of the Quran says:
“78.6] Have We not made the earth an even expanse?
[78.7] And the mountains as projections (thereon)?

No mention of "pegs" there!!

"The Hydrolic Cycle" was known to the Greeks.

"Embryonic Development"
The Greeks had a fair idea about that too.

"Origin of the universe"
See here how...because the Qur'an says that the heavens were once smoke...... your website jumps to the assumption that the "creation" of our present universe MUST have contained 'smoke' by describing a opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition as "smoke".

I really couldn't be bothered to go through the rest of that tripe. It's nothing more than a case of changing words around and making something say what you want it to say.


You might like to read this .....which debunks the nonsense about Scientific miracles in the Qur'an.
Islamic Science: Does Islamic literature contain scientific miracles?


.....and the Christian Bible make the same claim of "scientific miracles" as the Qur'an.