What is Islam? - a brief investigation

[Andre]

Please explain this apparent contradiction I noticed in the articles:

“We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)…” (Quran 23:12-14)

From The Religion of Islam - The Quran on Human Embryonic Development

“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?” (Quran 21:30)

From: The Religion of Islam - The Quran on the Expanding Universe and the Big Bang Theory

 

[pladecalvo]

.....and what about man being created from "water" coming from between the spine and the ribs (Qur'an 86:6-7).........a real "miracle" that!!

Since when have your testicles been halfway up your back Syl?? :24:

 

[Sylviane88]

"The Hydrolic Cycle" was known to the Greeks.

"Embryonic Development"
The Greeks had a fair idea about that too.

That could be known to the Greeks. why? because they made long researches about so.
Now .. How can an illiterate prophet (who can't read nor write) know all that?

 

[Sylviane88]

.....and what about sperm coming from between the spine and the ribs (Qur'an 86:6-7).........a real "miracle" that!!

Since when have your testicles been halfway up your back Syl??

Brother, you understood nothing here, I'll explain for you later ... but now, isn't this historical miracle sufficient?:
The Religion of Islam - The Victory of the Romans and the Lowest Point on Earth

 

[Sylviane88]

Please explain this apparent contradiction I noticed in the articles:

“We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)…” (Quran 23:12-14)

well .. I guess you mean this : ""We created man from an extract of clay"",

have you a body now? of course yes!

When you were just a sperm seen under the microscope ... Where was your body? .. Where were the components of your body?

weren't they in the cheap (clay) ? weren't they just components of cheap (clay) ?

brother, components of your body, were -one day- just component of clay (cheap).

God created you from these components

And you know that the Quran has a great linguistic eloquence in its original language (arabic).

“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?” (Quran 21:30)

From: The Religion of Islam - The Quran on the Expanding Universe and the Big Bang Theory

What do you mean -brother- here ? I didn't find any contradiction? ... explain your opinion and i'll help you.

 

[pladecalvo]

Brother, you understood nothing here, I'll explain for you later ... but now, isn't this historical miracle sufficient?:
The Religion of Islam - The Victory of the Romans and the Lowest Point on Earth

The rebuttal:

• The prophecy states that the Romans have been defeated in a land close by, but doesn’t bother to identify the precise location of this land.
• The obvious question is close to what exactly? Does this mean close to the place of Muslims, i.e. near Mecca or Medina? Or does this mean near the Roman capital? Or is it supposed to be close to Persia?
• Is it supposed to be near Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, India, China, Spain etc.?
• The reference also fails to mention the name of the people or nation that supposedly defeated the Romans. Actually, the people by whom they were defeated and whom they would be victorious over don’t necessarily have to be the same. The Quran fails to state by whom they were first defeated and over which nation they will be victorious a few years later. E.g., it is certainly possible to say: The Romans who have just been defeated by the Egyptians will soon be victorious over the Persians.
• As if this weren’t bad enough the so-called prophecy doesn’t even bother mentioning either the date of composition, i.e. whether the Sura is Meccan or Medinan in origin, or the time of the Roman defeat. Such details are vitally important in determining whether the Romans were able to vanquish their foes within the allotted time period stipulated by the Quran.

Link.
Miraculous scientific knowledge in the Qur'an: Dead Sea is lowest point on the earth!

 

[Andre]

What do you mean -brother- here ? I didn't find any contradiction? ... explain your opinion and i'll help you.

The contradiction is obvious. Water is not clay. Man is a living thing, supposedly made out of clay, and yet all living things were made out of water according to the second passage. Which is it? Water or clay?

The rebuttal:

Thank you pladecalvo. Can I also correct an obvious error in the article. I am happy to admit that Jerusalem is quite near the Dead Sea, but not Damascus, and the elevations of these cities after cursory research are not the lowest points on Earth.


The Romans, it is mentioned that the Romans were defeated “in the lowest land” (Quran 30:3). The places where the main battles took place (in Damascus and Jerusalem) [etc etc]

Source: The Religion of Islam - The Victory of the Romans and the Lowest Point on Earth


Damascus - elevation - 1,969ft

Source: Damascus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"The Dead Sea, called the Salt Sea in the Bible, is the lowest place on earth. It lies 1,310 feet below sea level in the Great Rift Valley. Jerusalem's elevation is 2,400 feet above sea level, so there is a difference of 3,710 feet."

Source: Dead Sea

"The Holy City... is 3,800 feet above the level of the Dead Sea. It is poetically called "beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth" (Ps 48:2)."

Source: Jerusalem

 

[Andre]

well .. I guess you mean this : ""We created man from an extract of clay"",

have you a body now? of course yes!

When you were just a sperm seen under the microscope ... Where was your body? .. Where were the components of your body?

weren't they in the cheap (clay) ? weren't they just components of cheap (clay) ?

brother, components of your body, were -one day- just component of clay (cheap).

God created you from these components

And you know that the Quran has a great linguistic eloquence in its original language (arabic).

OK - that is just utter rubbish.

I was never "just a sperm" for a start - but I'll let you figure that one out for yourself if you can.

What do you mean by the components of my body? My atomic structure? What does "in the cheap" mean?

I think I grew. I believe that tissue growth is a natural process, whether instituted by God or not, and has nothing to do with clay (unless nutrients I have consumed were at one point temporarily resident in a piece of clay).

Do you speak or read Arabic?

 

[Sylviane88]

The rebuttal:

• The prophecy states that the Romans have been defeated in a land close by, but doesn’t bother to identify the precise location of this land.
• The obvious question is close to what exactly? Does this mean close to the place of Muslims, i.e. near Mecca or Medina? Or does this mean near the Roman capital? Or is it supposed to be close to Persia?
• Is it supposed to be near Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, India, China, Spain etc.?
• The reference also fails to mention the name of the people or nation that supposedly defeated the Romans. Actually, the people by whom they were defeated and whom they would be victorious over don’t necessarily have to be the same. The Quran fails to state by whom they were first defeated and over which nation they will be victorious a few years later. E.g., it is certainly possible to say: The Romans who have just been defeated by the Egyptians will soon be victorious over the Persians.
• As if this weren’t bad enough the so-called prophecy doesn’t even bother mentioning either the date of composition, i.e. whether the Sura is Meccan or Medinan in origin, or the time of the Roman defeat. Such details are vitally important in determining whether the Romans were able to vanquish their foes within the allotted time period stipulated by the Quran.

Link.

Miraculous scientific knowledge in the Qur'an: Dead Sea is lowest point on the earth!

ah ... hhh .. funny ... I knew this site long time ago ...

Quran says:

“The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land, but after their defeat they will soon be victorious. Within three to nine years.” (Quran 30:2-4)


Did you see the word "lowest" ? it is in the superlative style, not comparative. ( no china no spain no jupiter !!!) and it means clearly in arabic : lowest point on the earth. Arabs and any people in that era knew that the battle took place somewhere near Jerusalem. Indeed, Quran has shown that this place is the lowest land on the earth.

Actually, the Dead Sea area (which is the lowest point on the earth) is located only a few kilometres from Jerusalem, and not at any other point of the Earth's vast surface !!!

( this is a non islamic-website which show that The dead sea area is the lowest point on the earth
Lowest Land Points Below Sea Level Map | Depression Elevations )

This is only the first clear miracle, the second is in the same quoting above:

“The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land, but after their defeat they will soon be victorious. Within three to nine years.” (Quran 30:2-4)

Indeed, there was another battle between the Romans and the Persians, 7 years only after this verse of the Quran. the winner was the romans. although it was impossible to believe that they can defeat the Persians, because the persian's power was much greater than the Roman's.

this was the second miracle.

 

[Sylviane88]

The contradiction is obvious. Water is not clay. Man is a living thing, supposedly made out of clay, and yet all living things were made out of water according to the second passage. Which is it? Water or clay?

No brother .. it is not like you believed ... God meant here that water is essential to life as a living organism ... That's all .

 

[Sylviane88]

Do you speak or read Arabic?

I've lived for several years in Algeria, and I learned Arabic but not to the degree of Arabs.

 

[Andre]

No brother .. it is not like you believed ... God meant here that water is essential to life as a living organism ... That's all .

OK - I see the confusion. I read:


We separated them, and made from water every living thing.

as meaning

We made every living thing from water.


Thank you for clarifying what God meant.

 

[Sylviane88]

“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?” (Quran 21:30)

OK - I see the confusion. I read:


We separated them, and made from water every living thing.

as meaning

We made every living thing from water.


Thank you for clarifying what God meant.

Well ... every living thing contains water ... isn't that true ? water exists in every living thing ... however, God did not say that water is the only component of a living thing ... the clear meaning of this Quran's verse (in arabic) is that God used water to render every thing: living

Using water, God renders every thing: living.

some people who hate Islam, used this verse of Quran to announce that in islam: God made every living thing by only water !!! this is clearly false, why, because even the false prophet cannot say a stupid thing like this.
I hope I helped you, Andre !, sometimes the problem can come from the translation, because you know it is very hard to translate an exact meaning of a text which has a great linguistic eloquence.

 

[Godsloveapples]

Yes, well although that is true, you still can't hide the fact that there ARE Islamic countries that treat women as property, where it isn't illegal to sell, trade and rape them.

Could you please provide some proof behind what you’re claiming? I've never heard that it's legal to sell, trade, and rape Muslim women in Islamic countries.

There ARE islamic countries that have laws against women being able to show faces and hands. Yes maybe the women could feel "power" in whering thos clothes, but, its not like whering a regular shirt, and pair of pants, even a modest pair of shorts wouldn't do the same thing.

Yes, you’re right; there are probably one or two Islamic countries that have laws for women to cover their face and hands, however, its do more to culture than religion. Yet, there are very rare occasions where women are forced to cover themselves because most women agree with it. I’m not saying that it’s right; God permitted women to show their face and hands.

 

[pladecalvo]

ah ... hhh .. funny ... I knew this site long time ago ...

Quran says:

“The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land, but after their defeat they will soon be victorious. Within three to nine years.” (Quran 30:2-4)


Did you see the word "lowest" ? it is in the superlative style, not comparative. ( no china no spain no jupiter !!!) and it means clearly in arabic : lowest point on the earth. Arabs and any people in that era knew that the battle took place somewhere near Jerusalem. Indeed, Quran has shown that this place is the lowest land on the earth.

Actually, the Dead Sea area (which is the lowest point on the earth) is located only a few kilometres from Jerusalem, and not at any other point of the Earth's vast surface !!!

( this is a non islamic-website which show that The dead sea area is the lowest point on the earth
Lowest Land Points Below Sea Level Map | Depression Elevations )

This is only the first clear miracle, the second is in the same quoting above:

“The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land, but after their defeat they will soon be victorious. Within three to nine years.” (Quran 30:2-4)

Indeed, there was another battle between the Romans and the Persians, 7 years only after this verse of the Quran. the winner was the romans. although it was impossible to believe that they can defeat the Persians, because the persian's power was much greater than the Roman's.

this was the second miracle.

ah ... hhh .. funny .
Perhaps you missed these important points:

"It is rather intriguing that none of the most commonly read and popular English versions of the Quran translate adna as lowest or al-ardi as the earth. They uniformly render adna as close/near/nearer/nearest (or even as neighboring!) and al-ardi as land respectively:

in the nearer part of the land A.J. Arberry
in a neighboring land N.J. Dawood
In a land close by Y. Ali
In the nearer land Pickthall
in the lands close-by Muhammad Asad
in a nearby land M.A.S. Abdel Haleem
in the neighboring land, F. Malik
In a near land Shakir
In the land nearby Sher Ali
In a near land Maulana Muhammad Ali
in a nearby land Muhammad Sarwar
In a nearer land ‘Abdul Majid Daryabadi
In the nearest land Saheeh International
on the nearest front! T.B. Irving
In the nearest land Rashad Khalifa
in the nighest parts of the land Palmer
in the nearest part of the land Sale
In the neighboring lands! Dr. Munir Munshey (one of Osama Abdallah’s authors!)
​

Other versions identify this land as the area around Syria and Palestine:

In the nearest land (Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine) Hilali-Khan
In the land nearby (- Syria and Palestine) Amatul Rahman & ‘Abdul Mannan ‘Omar
​

Osama Abdallah is virtually alone in adopting the translation, in the lowest land on earth, and the reason is rather obvious; his desire to find scientific statements in the Quran leads him to manipulate the verse in order to deceive people into thinking that the Quran contains accurate scientific information".
(my emphasis)

"O. Abdallah is trying to pull a fast one over his readers since he deceptively claims that the land that the Quran is referring to is actually the Dead Sea. The fact is that the Quran never mentions the name of the land and none of the Muslim scholars that we consulted believed that it refers to the Dead Sea".
(my emphasis)

"In his written debate with Nadir Ahmed, the former Muslim turned agnostic Ali Sina used the same argument against a similar claim: (my insert: Please note that Ali Sina is an ex-muslim which debunks your claim that nobody will reject Islam once they find it).

"Mr. Ahmed claims that the word near (Adna) can also be translated as lower and hence the above could be read: The Roman Empire was defeated in the lowest land ... Then Mr. Ahmad claims that since the Black Sea is it the lowest point on earth (1300 ft bellow sea level) then Muhammad has said something that no one could have known.


This is of course wishful thinking of a deluded believer and the absurdity of that is self-evident. The Romans were not defeated in the Red Sea but in Jerusalem and Jerusalem is above sea level. If we had to take Mr. Ahmed for his word and disregard the obvious meaning of the word, this verse would have become yet another blunder of Muhammad. However all the interpreters of the Quran have translated the verse correctly. If Muhammad really wanted to impress his readers he could have easily said that the Red Sea is the lowest land on Earth. Note that the verse is mentioning land and not sea. Muhammad is talking about the Jerusalem and not about the Red Sea. (Source)
​

Although Sina mistakenly refers to the Black and Red Seas, his point still applies to Abdallah’s argument.
Hence, what Abdallah thought was a definite proof for Muhammad’s prophethood ends up being a strong argument against him, serving to expose him as a false prophet! Wonderful work, Mr. Abdallah, we highly encourage you to keep it up".

 

[Sylviane88]

Perhaps you missed these important points:

"It is rather intriguing that none of the most commonly read and popular English versions of the Quran translate adna as lowest or al-ardi as the earth. They uniformly render adna as close/near/nearer/nearest (or even as neighboring!) and al-ardi as land respectively:

The true translation of the arabic word: "adna" is nearer?!! nearest?!!! close ?!!!!!

the first clear meaning of the word "adna" in arabic is: lowest.

the meaning "nearer" or "nearest" or even "close" of the same word is only on the second priority . (Figuratively)

let's take the matter logically:

why "nearer" or "nearest" is not the meaning of "adna" in this verse of the Quran:

because when Quran says: "in the nearer land" or "in the nearest land" or "in the closest land", we will say: """ nearer land to what?!!! ... why didn't Quran mention: "to what", after: "in the nearer land" ?"""

If we take the second meaning of "adna" (which is "nearer" or "nearest"), this verse of the Quran: will have no meaning !!! because it is not mentionned in the same verse: nearer to what?.

try to replace "lowest" by "nearer" or the other meanings, then check if the verse will have any meaning !!!

Therefore, and in addition that the first clear meaning of the word "adna" in arabic is: lowest:

the taken meaning here is: "lowest".
------
secondly, I asked the webmaster of this christian website about some proofs about the location of the battle: they have no proof that the battle was in Jerusalem !!!, I add to you:

Compare carefully:

-Arabs and any people in that era knew that the battle took place somewhere near Jerusalem.
-Quran mentionned that the location of the battle is the lowest land on the earth.
-The lowest land (Dead Sea) was near Jerusalem (only few kilometres). not in any other place on the vast's earth surface !.

How can you explain so ??? ... by chance !!!
--------------

and I think you ignored the second miracle in the same verse:

Quran mentionned: that there will be another battle within 3 to 9 years and that the romans will win and the persians will be defeated!

although it was impossible to believe that the romans can defeat the Persians, because the persian's power was much greater than the Roman's.

the battle happened 7 years after... and the romans won !!! just like what had been mentionned in the Quran.

-------------

offtopic:

didn't you say you're atheist? so why do you believe this christian website, and you say that you don't believe any religious website! just a question .

Just a friendly Tip.. If you want the truth .. Do not take it from sites that are trying to obliterate it.

I knew this site long time ago ... And I know that this site has filled the world with lies and erroneous concepts about Islam! .. But it has been answered long ago !!!

 

[pladecalvo]

Sylviane,

You can try to twist facts as much as you want just to make them correspond to what you want them to be but the facts won't change simply because you don't want to believe them. The FACT is that the Romans were defeated at JERUSALEM, hence the "siege of Jerusalem". Jerusalem is NOT the lowest point on Earth.

Not one online Arabic dictionary I have checked translates "adna" as lowest, it is translated as "near".
Not one online Qur'an I have checked says "lowest" either. They say "near" or "nearest".

You might like to read this:

Our dear Samer and his bogus Arabic and the word al-adna - Reader comments at Daniel Pipes Blog



It is quite obvious to me that you are not interested in what is true Sylviane. Your goal is to find anything that will support what you would like to be true.

You, like most theists, will only accept truth if it is the truth they have preconceived. They are only willing to accept what they have already decided to be true.

If you will only accept what you already believe to be truth, then you have closed the door to truth for yourself. Reality does not owe anyone anything. It will not change simply because you refuse to accept it. If you're really interested in truth, then you must accept it even if it is not what you wanted it to be. It won't change no matter how long or feverishly you refuse to accept it.

You can't accept truth only on your terms and expect to find truth. It just doesn't work that way.



I'm done with you Sylviane. I won't convince you nor will you convince me. The people who are following this thread are capable of researching the matter if they are interested enough. Let them decide!



Good luck.....brother!

 

[Sylviane88]

Sylviane,

You can try to twist facts as much as you want just to make them correspond to what you want them to be but the facts won't change simply because you don't want to believe them.

Brother,

see below:

Arabic (from right to left):
‏30:2 غلبت الروم
‏30:3 في ادنى الارض وهم من بعد غلبهم سيغلبون
30:2 The Romans have been defeated -
30:3 In the lowest land on earth; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-

try to copy/paste the underlined arabic words on the GOOGLE translator:

HERE

and you'll see the result !
-------

See this link to know the rebuttal !

-------

and this also can help you!: Rebuttal to Shamoun's and Katz' "Sinking to Dead Sea Levels" article.

 

[pladecalvo]

Please go here:

quran.com - Al-Quran Al-Kareem - Quran on the Web

Select Tanzil.info

then

Place your mouse over this text: (4th line up from the bottom of the page)

فِي أَدْنَى الْأَرْضِ وَهُمْ مِنْ

...and you will see that it says

"In a NEAR land"



3 of the most respected translators of Arabic in the world say:
YUSUFALI: In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
PICKTHAL: In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious
SHAKIR: In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,
USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts


Same here:
GlobalQuran.com

Same here:
quran.com - Al-Quran Al-Kareem - Quran on the Web

"in the lands close-by" (Asad)
"In the nearer land" (Pickthall)
"in a land close by" (Qaribullah)
"In a near land" (Shakir)


I have yet to find a translation of the Qur'an that says "lowest".

Are you saying that all these Arabic scholars of the Qur'an are wrong and you are right...you....who by your own admission, is not fluent in Arabic?


Give it up dude! You're a fraud!

 

[Godsloveapples]

Please go here:

quran.com - Al-Quran Al-Kareem - Quran on the Web

Select Tanzil.info

then

Place your mouse over this text: (4th line up from the bottom of the page)

فِي أَدْنَى الْأَرْضِ وَهُمْ مِنْ

...and you will see that it says

"In a NEAR land"



3 of the most respected translators of Arabic in the world say:
YUSUFALI: In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
PICKTHAL: In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious
SHAKIR: In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,
USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts


Same here:
GlobalQuran.com

Same here:
quran.com - Al-Quran Al-Kareem - Quran on the Web

"in the lands close-by" (Asad)
"In the nearer land" (Pickthall)
"in a land close by" (Qaribullah)
"In a near land" (Shakir)


I have yet to find a translation of the Qur'an that says "lowest".

Are you saying that all these Arabic scholars of the Qur'an are wrong and you are right...you....who by your own admission, is not fluent in Arabic?


Give it up dude! You're a fraud!

Some interpreters of the Qur'an, considering the closeness of the region in question to the Arabs, prefer the "closest" meaning of the word. However, the actual meaning indicates a very important geological fact: The Dead Sea, one of the regions in which the Byzantines were defeated in 613-14, is the lowest region on Earth. Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

Definition of "Adna"
أدنى | English | Dictionary & Translation by Babylon
أدنى
Google Translate


Translation: Arabic » English
Lower