Was Jesus a victim of self aggrandizing suicide?

[Johnfromokc]

I am a very firm believer in micro evolution. It's macro that I have issues with.

Is "macro" not the accumulation of "micro"?

 

[BornReady]

Here's a quote I posted earlier from Hitler himself. He obviously didn't believe in God

He didn't say he didn't believe in God in any of the quotes you posted. His problem seemed to be with institutionalized Christianity. You also have a problem with the church. Does that mean you don't believe in God? I'm not saying he did believe in God but he claimed to and you can't tell otherwise from the quotes you posted.

Hitler would not be the first atheist to pretend to be a theist in order to manipulate the gullible. But, as far as I know, Hitler never admitted to being an atheist. If we take him at his word then he believed in God.

 

[BornReady]

Is "macro" not the accumulation of "micro"?

Yep.

The question isn't whether micro and macro evolution occur. We have observed micro-evolution and the fossil record and genetics are evidence of macro-evolution. The question is whether God directed evolution. Scientists are pretty evenly divided on that question at least in the USA. But it is not a question that can be answered by science. Although one does wonder why a god would use evolution to create.

 

[Joe the meek]

Although one does wonder why a god would use evolution to create.

Why can't God be nature itself?

Perhaps this isn't a fact, but something I just happen to believe... Although humans may be the most intelligent animal on the planet (or at least we have ordained ourselves as such), I'm certain that there are things in this universe that we can't even come close to comprehending or understanding. Kind of like your pet dog trying to comprehend a two hour drive in the car.

 

[Joe the meek]

How about in future posts you use the quote button so it is easier to identify who you are quoting? Thanks!

I'll try my best. I just figure the person in question will know I'm quoting them when they read it

 

[HK]

Why can't God be nature itself?

Perhaps this isn't a fact, but something I just happen to believe... Although humans may be the most intelligent animal on the planet (or at least we have ordained ourselves as such), I'm certain that there are things in this universe that we can't even come close to comprehending or understanding. Kind of like your pet dog trying to comprehend a two hour drive in the car.

The second part of your post, I sort of think this myself. I still maintain that we can't know either way, but I definitely think it's possible that there is so much going on that we still don't know about. Look at all the discoveries we've made in our short history on this planet. It's entirely likely that we've only scratched the surface.

The first part - it sounds like you're suggesting that nature itself could be playing the part that people believe a God does, punishing and creating and so on. Is that what you were aiming at? Or do you mean less of a sentient force, but still with some purpose?

 

[Joe the meek]

After that... I am basically guided by my own morality. I strive to be a good person because that's who I am.

Perhaps one could argue that based on "facts", there is no way to know for certain what kind of person (good or bad) you really are. Isn't it society as a whole that determines what is "good" and what is "bad"?

Have a friend who butchers his own chickens. Ever butcher a animal? Some people find butchering animals VERY distasteful, yet they eat commercial grade meats (cows and chickens for example) every day. Ever see how a commercial "grade" chicken is raised? My point is that even though you may think you're a "Good person", how do you know for a fact (other than you not killing or hurting people yourself) that your actions make you a good person? If you eat meats every day and don't buy them locally, how do you know you're not contributing to animals suffering just to be raised to eat for human consumption? Heck, really want to push it, perhaps because everyone wants to drive their cars everyday and has to buy fuel, we're all responsible for our governments actions in the sandbox? Come one? Tell me North Korea doesn't have weapons of mass destruction, but you don't see us going in to invade them do you?

For the record, I don't think you and I differ that much in our beliefs. We are all just a product of our own life experiences to an extent, which may have brought us on different roads at times.

 

[Joe the meek]

The first part - it sounds like you're suggesting that nature itself could be playing the part that people believe a God does, punishing and creating and so on. Is that what you were aiming at? Or do you mean less of a sentient force, but still with some purpose?

In all honestly, who the **** knows:24: Being the intelligent animals we are, we could drive ourselves insane trying to figure it out. Guess that's why I'm lazy and just fall back on faith

I do however believe that you reap what you sow.

For some unknown reason, I'm still alive.

 

[HK]

I do however believe that you reap what you sow.

I think that's true to the extent that obviously if you're a nice person, other people will treat you well, whereas if you're an asshole then you have to get used to others being equally nasty in return.

However, in the grander scheme of things, attitude only seems to affect how individuals respond to you. Good people still get sick and die, or are in horrible accidents, or lose the people they love, etc etc, and people who are far less pleasant still prosper and live long lives.

 

[BornReady]

Why can't God be nature itself?

I've been going to a UU church the last couple months. Many of the people there have that view.

 

[sexysadie]

"Human being" is a label.



I agree with you labels are just descriptions of who/what you are. But belief in God is just one part of being religious. The proper label for simple belief in God is theist. Religious describes an institutionalized system of beliefs and practices. So all religious people are theists but not all theists are religious. Sadie is a theist but I can also see her as non-religious because she doesn't practice Christianity in the sense of going to church, tithing, regular bible reading, etc.

I've read the bible from cover to cover........see how well you know me?

 

[sexysadie]

No no, I agree. Some labels are bad because of what they imply, and like you say sometimes they have prejudice behind them. However, I don't think saying someone is religious because they believe in God could be considered wrong - it's a fairly neutral description.

You may not think so but I do!


Sadie, I understand why you think the word religious is wrong. However, whatever your personal interpretation of the word is, the common definition of the word religious is neutral - 'an individual who believes in a higher power or deity'.

You say that you understand why I would think of the word 'religious' as wrong, well I don't, I just don't like it for me.....Labels suck...end of story!

You don't seriously think that when anyone uses the phrase religious, they mean it to imply all kinds of nasty, derogatory things? I'm not saying people never do that, but in the context of this thread using the term religious is just to show whether someone has belief in a higher power or not. I don't see how that limits you in any way.

Used as a term, it's ok, used as a label to describe ME....not so ok.

 

[sexysadie]

I had never thought about it quite like this, but I am a bit with sadie on this. I would not want the label religious either. The story runs a bit long so I won't get into all of it.... John. Joe and I know each other quite well. As one can see, John and Joe are on opposite ends of this for the most part. I fall in the middle. My belief in God is a very simplistic. I have a biology degree. I have spent a lot of time working with cadavers. I do not for one second believe that the human body could have "evolved" entirely on its own. The way all the systems work together, how perfect it all is... After that... I am basically guided by my own morality. I strive to be a good person because that's who I am. Not because someone or some book tells me to. If I were to label myself... it would be more spiritual than religious, but I don't care for labels either.

Very well said!!:thumbup

 

[sexysadie]

Mr. John? LOL...I think you might have confused me with Joe-the-meek (a friend of mine BTW) that addressed you as "Miss Sexiesadie." I'm just plain old John and I truly love to have fun and enjoy life.



I understand where you are coming from, and we do agree that no one knows what happens to our awareness, or "aliveness" when we die. And no doubt we will all die, and I am completely comfortable with the concept of death and hold no fear of it whatsoever.




Oh my! I never intended to categorize you as a Bible thumper. Please forgive me if I came across that way. I enjoy respectful discourse on the subject of religion and the concept of god because it has touched all of our lives in both good ways and terrible ways. The only person I'll poke in the eye from time to time is Joe, but that's because we have been poking each other over a variety of subjects for a few years now.



Thank you SS, and ditto.



You are very welcome. And you are probably right about the HIS part, because no woman would create a world of death, disease, famine, war and violence between HER own children.

God didn't create all of this honey, WE did, when are we going to take some responsibility for our own stupidity?

I say this sincerely - I wish women ruled the world - that would end war, and I say this a formerly indoctrinated member of the USMC school of thought.

I agree, it would end war, we'd have one great big sleepover, do each others hair and make-up and wake up the next day as good friends.

 

[sexysadie]

He didn't say he didn't believe in God in any of the quotes you posted. His problem seemed to be with institutionalized Christianity. You also have a problem with the church. Does that mean you don't believe in God? I'm not saying he did believe in God but he claimed to and you can't tell otherwise from the quotes you posted.

Hitler would not be the first atheist to pretend to be a theist in order to manipulate the gullible. But, as far as I know, Hitler never admitted to being an atheist. If we take him at his word then he believed in God.

Yes, and we all know how good Hitlers word was

 

[sexysadie]

I think that's true to the extent that obviously if you're a nice person, other people will treat you well, whereas if you're an asshole then you have to get used to others being equally nasty in return.

However, in the grander scheme of things, attitude only seems to affect how individuals respond to you. Good people still get sick and die, or are in horrible accidents, or lose the people they love, etc etc, and people who are far less pleasant still prosper and live long lives.

"only the good die young' was just a song love'...:24:

Seriously, we all lose loved ones, we all get sick, we all have good luck at times, and most of us have experienced our fair share of bad luck.........to make a long story short, whether we're the good the bad or the ugly, life happens.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I've read the bible from cover to cover........see how well you know me?

You and I have this in common. I've read it through twice and studied it quite a bit as an adult. My mother had each book of the Bible in individual hardback editions, and one of the hardbacks was blood red with gold lettered "HELL", lol. I got quite the biblical home schooling. I've attended more bible studies than I can count. The more I studied, the less it made sense to the point I became a confirmed Agnostic Atheist.

 

[sexysadie]

You and I have this in common. I've read it through twice and studied it quite a bit as an adult. My mother had each book of the Bible in individual hardback editions, and one of the hardbacks was blood red with gold lettered "HELL", lol. I got quite the biblical home schooling. I've attended more bible studies than I can count. The more I studied, the less it made sense to the point I became a confirmed Agnostic Atheist.

I've onlly read it through once, but it sits as we speak in my night table drawer. Once in a while, when I need it, I take it out and open it to some random page....somehow,no matter what page I land on, it never ceases to make me feel good. I've had the same bible since I was a child, it's worn and torn and a lot of the pages are turned down or loosely attached....and I'll never part with it for all the fancy new bibles in the world.

I'm glad we have something in common.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I've onlly read it through once, but it sits as we speak in my night table drawer. Once in a while, when I need it, I take it out and open it to some random page....somehow,no matter what page I land on, it never ceases to make me feel good. I've had the same bible since I was a child, it's worn and torn and a lot of the pages are turned down or loosely attached....and I'll never part with it for all the fancy new bibles in the world.

I'm glad we have something in common.

We probably have a lot in common. Do you still attend church? Out of curiosity, what version of the Bible is yours? Growing up, it was always the King James version, but eventually the Southern Baptist Convention changed to the NIV. I came to prefer the NIV. It was the KJV without all the "thee's and thou's".

 

[sexysadie]

We probably have a lot in common. Do you still attend church? Out of curiosity, what version of the Bible is yours? Growing up, it was always the King James version, but eventually the Southern Baptist Convention changed to the NIV. I came to prefer the NIV. It was the KJV without all the "thee's and thou's".

No, I don't attend church anymore, the last time I was there a man who walked in off of the street, in need of some guidance or perhaps a friendly face, was shunned and turned away like he was dirt on the bottom of those big shot, money grubbing, holier than thou hypocrites who call themselves christians, shoes. People like that so often believe that since they attend church once or twice a week in their furs in their big cars that they've already bought their 'get into heaven' free card without having to resort to being caring human beings.....I was disgusted and I never looked at the church in the same way again. God was definately nowhere to be found in that buiding on the day a congregation of so called christians turned their backs on a man who so obviously needed their help.

...and mine is the King James version.....it's white and old and very well used