Was Jesus a victim of self aggrandizing suicide?

[BornReady]

Our minister used Hitler as an example, and asked what if Hitler had asked for forgiveness before his final moments and God granted it?

I don't think Hitler asked for forgiveness. If we can believe him then he thought he was doing God's will. A person would hardly need to ask God's forgiveness for that. If Hitler believed in God then he probably thought he had a special seat reserved for him at the right hand of God.

In answer to your question. If there is a heaven and Hitler is there, would I be upset? Hell yes! But I wouldn't send Hitler to hell either. Torture is inhumane. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. People like Hitler should never have been born in the first place. But since he was, he should have been annihilated which actually is what happened to him. Unfortunately that is what happens to everyone.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I believe something else we can agree upon is that no one on this earth knows for a FACT what happens to our "soul" or "life energy" or whatever else you would want to call whatever makes up you as a person.

Another agreement.

Although we may rarely agree due to the fact that you don't believe in a God and I do (or "higher power" or whatever else you may want to call a power greater than our own), please keep in mind, I don't think you'll ever find a post of mine "blasting" whatever someone else may believe. It seems I only get involved into the discussion usually when some high and almighty atheist starts spewing reasons why a God could never exist.

Let's clarify. I'm not an Atheist in the purest sense like many percieve. I'm more Agnostic Atheist, meaning I don't know what happens when we die and I admit it, whereas some Atheist's claim they "know". Those type Atheists are no different than any Bible, Koran or Torah thumper that "knows".

But I will tell you this - I don't believe in the god of the Abrahamic religions. That whole concept is completely ridiculous when you allow yourself to question it honestly. I completely understand how people fervently believe. I was raised in the Souhern Baptist tribe. I moved from Protestant tribe, to Non-denominational tribe et al. Once I allowed myself to really analyze my childhood teachings that led to my beliefs, I made a well informed decision to leave the tribe for good.

However, I'm open. God needs to show up and knock off all this mystical, esoteric bullshit, end poverty, disease and hunger, and establish world peace and I'll be a believer extrodinaire. Until then, all those "holy" books need to be moved to the fiction section.

Miss sexisadie, could you please change your avatar and other picture for the religious topics? I find them very distracting for the topic at hand (don't blame me for being honest )

Sexiesadie, you just be as sexy as you want, because if there is a creator, she wouldn't harm her beautiful creations. Artists proudly display their art.

 

[BornReady]

I believe something else we can agree upon is that no one on this earth knows for a FACT what happens to our "soul" or "life energy" or whatever else you would want to call whatever makes up you as a person.

I know what happens to your brain when you die. Asking what happens to our souls when we die is like asking what happens to unicorns when they die.

 

[Joe the meek]

Hitler should never have been born in the first place. But since he was, he should have been annihilated which actually is what happened to him.

At what point due you choose to annihilate a person?

Although Germany was annihilated / decimated, Hitler from the history books died at his own hands.

I don't think Hitler asked for forgiveness. If we can believe him then he thought he was doing God's will. A person would hardly need to ask God's forgiveness for that. If Hitler believed in God then he probably thought he had a special seat reserved for him at the right hand of God.

Here is a fact. NO ONE knows exactly what went through Hitlers mind (and I'm prepared for a lame joke on that comment) the moments before his death.

But I will tell you this - I don't believe in the god of the Abrahamic religions. That whole concept is completely ridiculous when you allow yourself to question it honestly. I

To some extent, I will agree with you on that point. However, most people in today's "modern times" forget the context in which the book was written considering when the events written about took place.

Anyway you cut it, IMO the ten commandments is a remarkable piece of work considering the time it was written, and Jesus Christ was remarkable.

I was raised in the Souhern Baptist tribe

Yes, living in NC now and being raised Greek Carpatho Russian Orthodox up in the Union was a culture shock Personally, I'm not a "fire and brimstone" kind of guy, and I don't always need to be told why I'm going to hell. That said, I honestly do think some of the Baptists are easing up a bit on the "fire and brimstone" (at least from my opinion). Being in the "country", there are few places where our son can actually socialize with children of his own age other than school. It was a local Baptist church that organized a soccer league (soccer field next to a horse pasture LOL). Kids had loads of fun, and the church didn't shove anything down your throat which made me pleasantly surprised. Guess my round about point is that some Churches are now realizing that they need to offer more than just a building for prayer on Sundays. For the longest time, for myself, my church had always been out in nature, on a river with close friends.

However, I'm open. God needs to show up and knock off all this mystical, esoteric bullshit, end poverty, disease and hunger, and establish world peace and I'll be a believer extrodinaire.

Not to burst your bubble, probably will never happen.

IMO the God as I know the entity has given us the ability to end those things which you speak of. The question is, will we use that ability? That is one reason why I believe everyone should try to make a difference. It's easier to sit at home and complain about the world around us than to take your own time and try to make a difference. If you actually try to do the work, there is no doubt in my mind that at times it will feel as if you're in a boat in the middle of the sea trying to drain the water one tea spoon at a time.

I'd like to think he'd be happier with the people who dont go out of their way to hurt others, do their best to help others and not these smug, self righteous, vindictive individuals who use god as an excuse for their behaviour, and before any one asks, I,m not putting all religious people into this basket.

To some extent, I happen to agree with you 110%. But instead of not going out of your way to hurt others, why not go out of your way to help others?

 

[sexysadie]

I'd like to think you're right. If there is a god, which I doubt, I'd like to think he'd be happier with the people who dont go out of their way to hurt others, do their best to help others and not these smug, self righteous, vindictive individuals who use god as an excuse for their behaviour, and before any one asks, I,m not putting all religious people into this basket.

Being called 'religious' makes me uncomfortable in a way, I'm not sure why, perhaps it's this basket you speak of.....I just believe in God.

 

[sexysadie]

I don't think Hitler asked for forgiveness. If we can believe him then he thought he was doing God's will. A person would hardly need to ask God's forgiveness for that. If Hitler believed in God then he probably thought he had a special seat reserved for him at the right hand of God.

In answer to your question. If there is a heaven and Hitler is there, would I be upset? Hell yes! But I wouldn't send Hitler to hell either. Torture is inhumane. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. People like Hitler should never have been born in the first place. But since he was, he should have been annihilated which actually is what happened to him. Unfortunately that is what happens to everyone.

Here's a quote I posted earlier from Hitler himself. He obviously didn't believe in God so no, it doesn't make sense that he would ask Him for forgiveness and he never thought about reserving himself a seat in Heaven because he didn't believe it existed.

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't....

 

[HK]

Being called 'religious' makes me uncomfortable in a way, I'm not sure why, perhaps it's this basket you speak of.....I just believe in God.

Surely the definition of being religious is having a belief in God.

I don't mean to say that 'being religious' about something can't have other applications like 'cleaned the house religiously' or 'brushes her hair religiously' but in the context of discussion about God, a belief in God is generally what defines someone as religious. It'd be difficult to be religious and not have any belief in any kind of higher power, whatever form that might take.

 

[sexysadie]

Another agreement.



Let's clarify. I'm not an Atheist in the purest sense like many percieve. I'm more Agnostic Atheist, meaning I don't know what happens when we die and I admit it, whereas some Atheist's claim they "know". Those type Atheists are no different than any Bible, Koran or Torah thumper that "knows".

But I will tell you this - I don't believe in the god of the Abrahamic religions. That whole concept is completely ridiculous when you allow yourself to question it honestly. I completely understand how people fervently believe. I was raised in the Souhern Baptist tribe. I moved from Protestant tribe, to Non-denominational tribe et al. Once I allowed myself to really analyze my childhood teachings that led to my beliefs, I made a well informed decision to leave the tribe for good.

However, I'm open. God needs to show up and knock off all this mystical, esoteric bullshit, end poverty, disease and hunger, and establish world peace and I'll be a believer extrodinaire. Until then, all those "holy" books need to be moved to the fiction section.


Sexiesadie, you just be as sexy as you want, because if there is a creator, she wouldn't harm her beautiful creations. Artists proudly display their art.

Hello Mr. John, it's me, your friendly neighborhood bible thumper..lol. I believe in God and I believe in eternal life with Him for those who get off of their high horses and ask. True.....it wouldn't make any sense for me to sit here and suggest that I 'know' exactly what will happen when the time comes but I do know this.........the time WILL come. I don't go around preaching to people, I just can't resist the opportunity to sing His praises when I see others deny His existance. Nobody is privy to the many wonders of this vast universe in which we live......and nobody is privy to what happens beyond that....so lets make a deal, you don't call me a bible thumper and I won't call you a blowhard.

That being said, I must say that I admire your ability to speak your own mind, I may not agree with everything you say but kudo's to you for standing up and saying it.


Oh, and thanks for the sexy comment, I agree, in a world filled with death and disaster, why not show off one of HIS best works

 

[sexysadie]

Surely the definition of being religious is having a belief in God.

I don't mean to say that 'being religious' about something can't have other applications like 'cleaned the house religiously' or 'brushes her hair religiously' but in the context of discussion about God, a belief in God is generally what defines someone as religious. It'd be difficult to be religious and not have any belief in any kind of higher power, whatever form that might take.

Cults can be considered 'religious' as well, for me the word says controlled, as in an organization or a group, and I don't like to be linked to such bullshit in any sense of the word. I believe what I believe because for me it's fact, and I worship God in my own way. As far as I'm concerned I'm no different than the person who does NOT believe in God, we just have different beliefs, I don't go around calling those who don't believe, non-religious.

I know what you mean and I guess I can see your point, but the word to me is like a label and I don't like to be labelled.

 

[HK]

I know what you mean and I guess I can see your point, but the word to me is like a label and I don't like to be labelled.

I don't mean this as something personal against you, it applies to everyone - we can all talk about not liking labels, not wanting to be put in a box, but the fact is that some things have a name, and that's the end of it.

If you didn't eat meat, that makes you a vegetarian. It doesn't matter whether you don't eat it because you hate the thought of animals being killed or because you've got medical issues - no matter what led you to that point, you're still vegetarian.

Do you see what I mean? Just because a term encompasses a whole variety of smaller groups doesn't mean it isn't still applicable, and a label is not always a negative thing - it just describes your situation.

 

[sexysadie]

I don't mean this as something personal against you, it applies to everyone - we can all talk about not liking labels, not wanting to be put in a box, but the fact is that some things have a name, and that's the end of it.

If you didn't eat meat, that makes you a vegetarian. It doesn't matter whether you don't eat it because you hate the thought of animals being killed or because you've got medical issues - no matter what led you to that point, you're still vegetarian.

Do you see what I mean? Just because a term encompasses a whole variety of smaller groups doesn't mean it isn't still applicable, and a label is not always a negative thing - it just describes your situation.

I disagree. I believe that labels are wrong, some can even be cruel. I am a human being and I don't like to be labelled, I mean it's different when it's one person choosing their own label, like a vegetarian, they pretty much choose that label and they're proud to call themselves a vegetarian, but how can it be considered right to label a person when that person openly expresses his or her choice not to be labelled?

 

[HK]

I disagree. I believe that labels are wrong, some can even be cruel. I am a human being and I don't like to be labelled, I mean it's different when it's one person choosing their own label, like a vegetarian, they pretty much choose that label and they're proud to call themselves a vegetarian, but how can it be considered right to label a person when that person openly expresses his or her choice not to be labelled?

I agree that some labels are cruel. But other 'labels' are just descriptions of your situation. You don't choose to call yourself a vegetarian, you're a vegetarian by definition if you decide to not eat meat. A label is just a name for something - for example, I'm agnostic. I could say 'don't put a label on me!' but the fact is, my beliefs can be categorised as agnostic, so that's what they're called. People aren't maliciously labeling you as religious, it's just a way of saying 'this person believes in God'.

If you believe in God or a higher power, you're religious. If you don't, you're non-religious. That's not something you can choose, it's a description of your choice of beliefs.

 

[Minor Axis]

Ironically enough, I find your belittling attitude as comforting as some "Christian" preachers I come across on TV.

How about in future posts you use the quote button so it is easier to identify who you are quoting? Thanks!

I agree that some labels are cruel. But other 'labels' are just descriptions of your situation. You don't choose to call yourself a vegetarian, you're a vegetarian by definition if you decide to not eat meat. A label is just a name for something - for example, I'm agnostic. I could say 'don't put a label on me!' but the fact is, my beliefs can be categorised as agnostic, so that's what they're called. People aren't maliciously labeling you as religious, it's just a way of saying 'this person believes in God'.

If you believe in God or a higher power, you're religious. If you don't, you're non-religious. That's not something you can choose, it's a description of your choice of beliefs.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd say it's not the label, so much as it is what is made of the label, what prejudices are are directed at a label, or how an individual might not completely fit the definition of the label.

 

[sexysadie]

I agree that some labels are cruel. But other 'labels' are just descriptions of your situation. You don't choose to call yourself a vegetarian, you're a vegetarian by definition if you decide to not eat meat. A label is just a name for something - for example, I'm agnostic. I could say 'don't put a label on me!' but the fact is, my beliefs can be categorised as agnostic, so that's what they're called. People aren't maliciously labeling you as religious, it's just a way of saying 'this person believes in God'.

If you believe in God or a higher power, you're religious. If you don't, you're non-religious. That's not something you can choose, it's a description of your choice of beliefs.

To label another human being is to put them in a box and limit, not necessarily the individual they are, but what we as a society see when we look at them. If you iinsist on using labels then label me a Christian, but remember, by your definition we all carry the burden of many labels. Is my choice 'not to' so hard for you to understand? Personally, I don't think that the word 'religious' defines who I am, but if you insist on using that label to describe me, then there's really nothing much I can do about it....except express my personal dislike for the word....and the label it insinuates....in my opinion, of course.

 

[HK]

'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd say it's not the label, so much as it is what is made of the label, what prejudices are are directed at a label, or how an individual might not completely fit the definition of the label.

No no, I agree. Some labels are bad because of what they imply, and like you say sometimes they have prejudice behind them. However, I don't think saying someone is religious because they believe in God could be considered wrong - it's a fairly neutral description.

...but remember, by your definition we all carry the burden of many labels. Is my choice 'not to' so hard for you to understand?

Sadie, I understand why you think the word religious is wrong. However, whatever your personal interpretation of the word is, the common definition of the word religious is neutral - 'an individual who believes in a higher power or deity'.

You don't seriously think that when anyone uses the phrase religious, they mean it to imply all kinds of nasty, derogatory things? I'm not saying people never do that, but in the context of this thread using the term religious is just to show whether someone has belief in a higher power or not. I don't see how that limits you in any way.

 

[rback33]

I had never thought about it quite like this, but I am a bit with sadie on this. I would not want the label religious either. The story runs a bit long so I won't get into all of it.... John. Joe and I know each other quite well. As one can see, John and Joe are on opposite ends of this for the most part. I fall in the middle. My belief in God is a very simplistic. I have a biology degree. I have spent a lot of time working with cadavers. I do not for one second believe that the human body could have "evolved" entirely on its own. The way all the systems work together, how perfect it all is... After that... I am basically guided by my own morality. I strive to be a good person because that's who I am. Not because someone or some book tells me to. If I were to label myself... it would be more spiritual than religious, but I don't care for labels either.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Hello Mr. John, it's me, your friendly neighborhood bible thumper..lol.

Mr. John? LOL...I think you might have confused me with Joe-the-meek (a friend of mine BTW) that addressed you as "Miss Sexiesadie." I'm just plain old John and I truly love to have fun and enjoy life.

I believe in God and I believe in eternal life with Him for those who get off of their high horses and ask. True.....it wouldn't make any sense for me to sit here and suggest that I 'know' exactly what will happen when the time comes but I do know this.........the time WILL come. I don't go around preaching to people, I just can't resist the opportunity to sing His praises when I see others deny His existance. Nobody is privy to the many wonders of this vast universe in which we live......and nobody is privy to what happens beyond that....

I understand where you are coming from, and we do agree that no one knows what happens to our awareness, or "aliveness" when we die. And no doubt we will all die, and I am completely comfortable with the concept of death and hold no fear of it whatsoever.

so lets make a deal, you don't call me a bible thumper and I won't call you a blowhard.

Oh my! I never intended to categorize you as a Bible thumper. Please forgive me if I came across that way. I enjoy respectful discourse on the subject of religion and the concept of god because it has touched all of our lives in both good ways and terrible ways. The only person I'll poke in the eye from time to time is Joe, but that's because we have been poking each other over a variety of subjects for a few years now.

That being said, I must say that I admire your ability to speak your own mind, I may not agree with everything you say but kudo's to you for standing up and saying it.

Thank you SS, and ditto.

Oh, and thanks for the sexy comment, I agree, in a world filled with death and disaster, why not show off one of HIS best works

You are very welcome. And you are probably right about the HIS part, because no woman would create a world of death, disease, famine, war and violence between HER own children.

I say this sincerely - I wish women ruled the world - that would end war, and I say this a formerly indoctrinated member of the USMC school of thought.

 

[Minor Axis]

I have a biology degree. I have spent a lot of time working with cadavers. I do not for one second believe that the human body could have "evolved" entirely on its own.

Why not? I assume you understand the concept of evolution, changes happen, and those changes that help an organism succeed are the changes that will stick. Unsuccessful changes will not survive. Based on this very simple premise, you would expect that any species that has lasted long enough to evolve into what it is today is going to possess a fairly sophisticated biological system.

I don't have a handy link, but I believe there are many examples of characteristics in animals that point to an evolving biological system versus a system that was designed as is, from scratch.

If you feel like it, check out this Evolution Series on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rajouw6zFDY&feature=relmfu.

 

[BornReady]

I am a human being and I don't like to be labelled

"Human being" is a label.

If you believe in God or a higher power, you're religious. If you don't, you're non-religious. That's not something you can choose, it's a description of your choice of beliefs.

I agree with you labels are just descriptions of who/what you are. But belief in God is just one part of being religious. The proper label for simple belief in God is theist. Religious describes an institutionalized system of beliefs and practices. So all religious people are theists but not all theists are religious. Sadie is a theist but I can also see her as non-religious because she doesn't practice Christianity in the sense of going to church, tithing, regular bible reading, etc.

 

[rback33]

Why not? I assume you understand the concept of evolution, changes happen, and those changes that help an organism succeed are the changes that will stick. Unsuccessful changes will not survive. Based on this very simple premise, you would expect that any species that has lasted long enough to evolve into what it is today is going to possess a fairly sophisticated biological system.

I am a very firm believer in micro evolution. It's macro that I have issues with.