Was Jesus a victim of self aggrandizing suicide?

[BornReady]

Sadie is a theist but I can also see her as non-religious because she doesn't practice Christianity in the sense of going to church, tithing, regular bible reading, etc.

I've read the bible from cover to cover........see how well you know me?

I've onlly read it through once, but it sits as we speak in my night table drawer. Once in a while, when I need it, I take it out and open it to some random page

I may know you better than you think.

lol Besides, I thought I was agreeing with you. I was saying you're not religious.

 

[sexysadie]

I may know you better than you think.

lol Besides, I thought I was agreeing with you. I was saying you're not religious.

I just saw another label...sorry.

Oh, and you do not know me.....lol...not even a teeny weeny bit. You know that I believe in God, but that's all you know and that's only because I posted that fact.

 

[Joe the meek]

It wasn't just the clothes it was the attitude that they were better than everybody else. I swear, sometimes I wonder if being a member of a church could actually ruin some relationships with God. I guess it could if you allow yourself to get lost in it.

Don't judged organize religion by some of the churches you go to. The sad fact IMO is that churches are made up of people. Guess what? People sin and people don't walk on water, and the more people you get together, you increase the odds IMO that you're getting involved in a 3 ring circus. Personally, that comes with the territory of trying to find a church that you feel comfortable in. Ever love to ski and join a ski club? I HATE ski clubs. They become more like a social gathering, people people form clicks (like it's really important who the president of the club is LMFAO) or people wonder who's dating who, and when you go out to ski, you end up doing anything but skiing. To some extent, churches IMO can become like ski clubs

 

[sexysadie]

Don't judged organize religion by some of the churches you go to. The sad fact IMO is that churches are made up of people. Guess what? People sin and people don't walk on water, and the more people you get together, you increase the odds IMO that you're getting involved in a 3 ring circus. Personally, that comes with the territory of trying to find a church that you feel comfortable in. Ever love to ski and join a ski club? I HATE ski clubs. They become more like a social gathering, people people form clicks (like it's really important who the president of the club is LMFAO) or people wonder who's dating who, and when you go out to ski, you end up doing anything but skiing. To some extent, churches IMO can become like ski clubs

I wouldn't have anything to do with a restricted country club, why should a restricted church be any different?..lol..I know what you're saying Joe, it's just that, unfortunately, I've had a really bad experience in a church, one I haven't been able to forget all these years, and I'm not one to hold a grudge, never have been. It's not about that. I just didn't feel God's presence in that building and it made me think......just because it's a church, doesn't make it any more special than what's under my own roof. Everything that glitters is not gold, ya know?

Coming to terms with the realization that God is everywhere made me understand that, I can feel close to God without the politics......I like that.

 

[Greatest I am]

lol. ok that last post was a little harsh and the mods warned me about it.

On topic, the sacrifice of Jesus represents the same thing all human sacrifice does.

We all benefit from human sacrifice. The present is built on the sufferings and sacrifices of the past. We are all martyrs in a sense. People sacrificed for you, and you will eventually sacrifice for others. That is the true circle of life.

The story of Jesus is the story of all of humanity. Reduced to a single event. What is life? It is sacrifice and suffering. So the sacrified is made the hero. Because we all sacrifice our lives for something. Usually the next generation. This obviously isn't just exclusive to humans, all species do it. But they do it without thought. Humans require meaning. They need to be lashed and prodded. The fact that our whole existence is just to keep the species going isn't good enough for most people. They need meaning. They need a reason to press on. As a great President once said:



So how do you solve this? You take what life actually is-suffering and sacrifice, and make that the meaning. Religion gives meaning to life, gives them meaning to persist, and meaning to persistence, and wisely immediately honed in on making suffering a virtue because that's what life is. So it can appeal to everyone. Because everyone suffers. So the sufferer and sacrificer is the ultimate hero and giver. Anyone can be a hero. Simply living and raising your family is now heroic.

All good things come from suffering and sacrifice throughout human history. We wouldn't be here without our predecessors. They have made life pretty comfortable for us. We are standing on the shoulders of giants.

Resurrection is a universal myth and it all has the same meaning. In some of the American Indian tribes corn origin stories for example. Where did corn come from? Well, it is an elaborate myth that boils down to some Indian hero dying and from his remains literally sprung the first corn stalk. His death and sacrifice gave them corn. He had to die to them give them something eternal. That is how everything comes. Through sacrifice. Through martyrdom. Through the hardship of all the humanity that has come before you. In this case it was corn. Jesus was the same, he had to die to give his people something for eternity. We all have to suffer to give something to eternity.

This notion is summed up well in the last paragraph of the Martyrdom of Man, which is a good book on philosophy and evolution. I think it was actually the second book ever written on evolution after Origin of Species.



Let that quote sink in and the death of Jesus will make more sense.

Keep your preaching short please and if you want to discuss anything, show what it is.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Yep.

The question isn't whether micro and macro evolution occur. We have observed micro-evolution and the fossil record and genetics are evidence of macro-evolution. The question is whether God directed evolution. Scientists are pretty evenly divided on that question at least in the USA. But it is not a question that can be answered by science. Although one does wonder why a god would use evolution to create.

All statistics can be played with so I will not get any for you but I do not see scientists as evenly divided on evolution and God being the creator.
Most scientists are not creationists. In fact, most statistics I have seen show that the better educated one is, the less likely one will be a believer in a creator God.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Why can't God be nature itself?

Perhaps this isn't a fact, but something I just happen to believe... Although humans may be the most intelligent animal on the planet (or at least we have ordained ourselves as such), I'm certain that there are things in this universe that we can't even come close to comprehending or understanding. Kind of like your pet dog trying to comprehend a two hour drive in the car.

There is a possibility that we may not understand everything that there is to understand, especially some of the un-pr0vable speculation on thinking and thought, but at a physical level, Hawking does not agree with you. Neither do I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cQI1dRvYvk&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O9cYTZXekA&feature=related

Regards
DL

 

[Joe the meek]

I just didn't feel God's presence in that building and it made me think......just because it's a church, doesn't make it any more special than what's under my own roof. Everything that glitters is not gold, ya know?

Coming to terms with the realization that God is everywhere made me understand that, I can feel close to God without the politics......I like that.

I sincerely do know what you mean. Remember the comment about being on the river with my close friends?

That said, with family, work and the house and land, I have more than my hands full whenever I have time off. HOWEVER, the one thing I'm doing now that I hadn't done in the past when I felt close to my "God" is giving unto others. I use to get out on some really good whitewater rivers, sometimes as much as 180 days out of the year. I felt so alive. That said, what I've come to find is that everything was about what I wanted and what I wanted to do, and I was doing nothing to help those who may be in actual need.

You had mentioned about that one person that the one church "shunned" away who may of needed help. Guess what I'm wondering is if you're trying to help those less fortunate than yourself, or are you just looking to be "spiritually filled" to the point that you're content with your life?

 

[Joe the meek]

There is a possibility that we may not understand everything that there is to understand, especially some of the un-pr0vable speculation on thinking and thought, but at a physical level, Hawking does not agree with you. Neither do I.
Regards
DL

Wow, I didn't know there was ONLY a possibility that we may not understand everything that there is to understand in this universe.

I've got to ask, what do you do for work? Myself, I'm just a working stiff who has formed my opinions due to my own life experiences, and I never excelled in physics at the college level. I mean, when you put me up against Stephen Hawking, I can only bow down in awe.

Ironic IMO that we can know everything there is at the "physical level" in this universe, but we can't feed the hungry nor offer healthcare to those that need it in an industrialized nation such as the United States. What other animal on this planet other than man do you see destroying the earth and justifying their actions? Amazing!

That said, when Hawking, you, and I are all 6 feet under, perhaps we'll all have the answer.

 

[BornReady]

Most scientists are not creationists. In fact, most statistics I have seen show that the better educated one is, the less likely one will be a believer in a creator God.

You are correct. Most all scientists accept evolution. My point is that scientists in the USA are pretty evenly divided as to whether God directed evolution (theistic evolution) or not (natural evolution). There's no evidence God directed evolution. It's a matter of faith.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Ironic IMO that we can know everything there is at the "physical level" in this universe, but we can't feed the hungry nor offer healthcare to those that need it in an industrialized nation such as the United States. What other animal on this planet other than man do you see destroying the earth and justifying their actions? Amazing!

Which scientists have claimed we can know everything there is at a physical level? I can't recall that ever being said. But the Bible does say this:

“God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
—Genesis 1:26

I've seen this verse used as justification for all manner of of destruction and depletion of natural resourses on our planet. I've often seen a certain politcal segment tell of "how resiliant the Earth is" in response to those concerned with the conservation of our planet and its resources. "Only god could destroy the Earth. Man is not capable of such power" - they say. Well, we might not wipe out the planet, but we could sure make it a lot less inhabitable for humans. This is one of the many reasons I find religion so dangerous. So dangerous in fact, that the bad outweighs the good by my estimation.

As to our not being able to feed and medically care for all American citizens, that is sad indeed. And we could achieve this if we as a society stopped fighting amongst ourselves and make it happen. What part might organized religion play in preventing affordable health care for all? A huge part - the divisive abortion issue, and the gay and lesbian issue to name two. The anti-abortion, anti-gay rights politicians tend to be the same politicians that are anti-universal health care, and anti-social welfare. So we - the working class - are divided into two bickering sides, with organized religion comprising a huge section of the dividing wall.

 

[Joe the meek]

I've seen this verse used as justification for all manner of of destruction and depletion of natural resourses on our planet..

John, I've never given you any argument that people don't use words from the Bible to justify their causes.

Heck, even in the county where I live, you should of seen the scriptures quoted when they finally wanted to pass the legal sales of beer / wine in the county I live in a couple of years ago. People said God doesn't want alcohol, and other people said God said it was ok to have alcohol. Heck, I'm always amazed at how much people know what God really want.

Ultimately, I'll fall into the category that if you use the Bible to justify harm or destruction to others, it is wrong. Yes, there is the Old Testament, but ultimately IMO if you're a Christian, Jesus Christ is the path you must follow IMO.

Yes, and I know, in your eyes, Jesus says it's ok to destroy others, but I'll respectfully disagree.

 

[Minor Axis]

Why can't God be nature itself?

Perhaps this isn't a fact, but something I just happen to believe... Although humans may be the most intelligent animal on the planet (or at least we have ordained ourselves as such), I'm certain that there are things in this universe that we can't even come close to comprehending or understanding. Kind of like your pet dog trying to comprehend a two hour drive in the car.

I could buy this, especially the part of not comprehending or understanding. Based on this notion, what makes mankind think they know a specific God exists and what this God expects from us? The problem is when mankind starts making all these determinations that completely lack any reasonable standard of proof and any clear channels of communication?

 

[Joe the meek]

I could buy this, especially the part of not comprehending or understanding. Based on this notion, what makes mankind think they know a specific God exists and what this God expects from us? The problem is when mankind starts making all these determinations that completely lack any reasonable standard of proof and any clear channels of communication?

Perhaps this may sound strange coming from me due to my posts on God, but I happen to agree with you.

IMO religion throughout history has been used to manipulate people and create war.

Perhaps that's where it comes down to faith?

I could also see where one could argue why one would have faith in a topic (God) that promotes manipulation and war, and I would counter that perhaps it's not God's doing, but the people who think they know what their God wants.

As I've mentioned previously, anyway you cut it, the 10 commandments are a remarkable set of rules for man to follow, particularly in the times they were apparently created. Who knows, perhaps Mel Brooks had it right and there were actually 15?:24:

I also can't help but think that if man actually followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, the world would be a better place. For myself, the Bible comes down to Jesus Christ and I'd like to believe that if you've read any of my previous posts on any forums (even other than this one), I've never quoted scripture to promote my own interests other than help those less fortunate than yourself (I also believe that I'm not going to give money to a church for a minster to drive a Mercedes LOL but ensure that the money is being used to help people, not fund something fancy because the men who run the church want it).

The way I see it, we're on this earth for a very short time, and God forbid we actually try to help people than to promote our interests. Then again, perhaps I have it all wrong and death and destruction is not only what God wants, but is in mans nature (which perhaps some could argue is the same?).

 

[sexysadie]

I sincerely do know what you mean. Remember the comment about being on the river with my close friends?

That said, with family, work and the house and land, I have more than my hands full whenever I have time off. HOWEVER, the one thing I'm doing now that I hadn't done in the past when I felt close to my "God" is giving unto others. I use to get out on some really good whitewater rivers, sometimes as much as 180 days out of the year. I felt so alive. That said, what I've come to find is that everything was about what I wanted and what I wanted to do, and I was doing nothing to help those who may be in actual need.

You had mentioned about that one person that the one church "shunned" away who may of needed help. Guess what I'm wondering is if you're trying to help those less fortunate than yourself, or are you just looking to be "spiritually filled" to the point that you're content with your life?

I think most people strive for both, myself included.

What about the church gives you the impression of helping the needy? The collection plate? The church my children were christened in bought a fancy new pipe organ with theirs, I wonder how many of the unfortunate THAT helped.

 

[Greatest I am]

Wow, I didn't know there was ONLY a possibility that we may not understand everything that there is to understand in this universe.

.

You brought it dows to just the on possibility. That of us not being able to understand all things.
So did I except for the reverse. Yet I am automatically wrong and you are automatically right.

So much for resiprocity being fair play.

Regards
DL

 

[Joe the meek]

You brought it dows to just the on possibility. That of us not being able to understand all things.
So did I except for the reverse. Yet I am automatically wrong and you are automatically right.

So much for resiprocity being fair play.

Regards
DL

I'm a little perplexed, that said, I do know not to pee on an electric fence.

I pretty much think it's a fact that it's impossible for the human mind, in our current state, to understand everything in the universe, although I have no doubt at times some of our species may think we understand everything.

Could you please elaborate as to what you did in "reverse"?

 

[Joe the meek]

What about the church gives you the impression of helping the needy? The collection plate? The church my children were christened in bought a fancy new pipe organ with theirs, I wonder how many of the unfortunate THAT helped.

The church financials should be available to all members IMO.

When you donate money, do it by check, and specify where you want the money to go.

You may need to communicate this with the people in the church, but there should be no reason why your money isn't going to where you intend it to go and you should be able to verify it through church records. Ultimately if I go to a church and I can't track my donated money, I will stop going there.

I have however learned firsthand that you may be able to teach a man to fish, but that's not to say he's not going to sell his fishing pole and tackle for a cheap fix.

 

[BornReady]

I pretty much think it's a fact that it's impossible for the human mind, in our current state, to understand everything in the universe, although I have no doubt at times some of our species may think we understand everything.

If you're smart enough then it is possible to understand what science accepts as true. However it is almost certain science currently accepts some hypotheses that are at least partially false. This doesn't bother scientists. In fact, part of a scientist's job is to find and correct those hypotheses. That's how you make a name for yourself in science.

There are also mysteries in science. Things scientists don't even have hypotheses for or at least tested hypotheses.

 

[Joe the meek]

If you're smart enough then it is possible to understand what science accepts as true. However it is almost certain science currently accepts some hypotheses that are at least partially false. This doesn't bother scientists. In fact, part of a scientist's job is to find and correct those hypotheses. That's how you make a name for yourself in science.

There are also mysteries in science. Things scientists don't even have hypotheses for or at least tested hypotheses.

I can't help but think that given time, things accepted as true (even in today's "modern times") could be proven to be false.