Trayvon Martin- Tragedy

[Minderella]

Oh - BTW - the GF stated that she told Trayvon to run and that Trayvon stated "Why you following me?" and then she heard a scuffle and the line went dead. That does not back up the theory of Martin attacking Zimmerman.

How does it totally wipe out that idea either? Martin could have asked Zimmerman "Why you following me?" and then had enough, turned around and attacked Zimmerman. The scuffle could have been initiated by Martin. We just don't know.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Is there any evidence that Zimmerman had brandished his gun when he confronted the kid? Did the kid mention a gun when he was on the phone with the girlfriend?

Not that I have heard. One might assume if he had his gun out, Trayvon would have ran - hell, I would have done my best to get out of range - wouldn't you?

How big was this kid? The little I have followed this the pictures show a kid that appears to look young and small. More like a 12-13 year old.

Martin was 6'-3" 140#. Tall slim kid, about the same height and weight as my own 17 year old son.

Zimmerman 5'-9" 250#

Did the kid notice the guy while in the car? Why was the kid acting suspicious?

According to the 911 tape recording, Zimmerman stated "he's looking at me".

Is this a neighborhood that has a high crime rate or had a rash of robberies?

Don't know - it is a gated community.

I heard one pundit comment the kid was shot in the back. Is that true?

First I heard of that. It was always reported as a chest shot in all the reports I saw and read.

I am not sure what to make of this case as the press first made it appear that it was racial. As in some crazy white guy killed the kid. Then they are stretching to try to make some of his words audible that no way in hell are.

I heard of it shortly after it happened on Facebook. It was a snowball rolling downhill from the beginning. The Sanford police appeared to have zero intention of investigating further, but when the 911 tapes were released, the shit really hit the fan, and rightfully so.

There is no doubt Zimmerman escalated this an has responsibility for doing so. That does not mean he was not defending himself. Whether that means he is innocent or guilty of murder or manslaughter a jury can decide. I expect in the end it will be clearer what transpired.

Zimmerman was clearly told by the 911 opeator to stop following Martin. Zimmerman lost sight of Martin while on the phone with 911. Zimmerman went looking for Martin. Zimmerman approached Martin according to a witness.

Those facts alone demonstrate Zimmerman intentionally escalated the situation.

This is admitedly pure speculation on my part, but I think it is reasonable to assume Zimmerman put his hands on Martin and Martin defended himself. Zimmerman was likely receiving a well deserved ass whooping but was able to pull his pistol and kill Martin. Zimmerman is claiming self defense after he caused the incident.

Zimmermans defense is akin to a bar fight where on guy walks up and punches someone, the punched man beats down the agressor, and the agressor, getting his ass kicked, pulls a knife or gun and kills the defender and claims self defense, even though in truth, the agressor killed the defender.

Methinks Zimmerman better stock up on KY Jelly to avoid anal tears in prison.

 

[Johnfromokc]

How does it totally wipe out that idea either? Martin could have asked Zimmerman "Why you following me?" and then had enough, turned around and attacked Zimmerman. The scuffle could have been initiated by Martin. We just don't know.

That point is moot either way. Zimmerman caused this incident - he was the agressor because he followed Martin after being told not to. See the bar fight analogy in post #102.

 

[Minderella]

Do you do everything that you are told not to do?

Yeah, Zimmerman probably should have listened and this situation never happened--but for whatever reason, he felt compelled to follow. Either for reasons like Jay is stating, that he was trying to find out where Martin went to answer the dispatcher, or because he wanted to "stop" Martin--we just don't quite know that.

Now, here's a legitimate question that I just don't know.....do 911 dispatchers have any type of "authority"? If it would have been a police officer on the phone telling him to stop following, then yes--he should have no question. But I don't exactly know how much authority a 911 dispatcher holds.

 

[Alien Allen]

Zimmerman was clearly told by the 911 opeator to stop following Martin. Zimmerman lost sight of Martin while on the phone with 911. Zimmerman went looking for Martin. Zimmerman approached Martin according to a witness.

The fact the operator told him not to follow is irrelevant. IMO

As an example... IF I am on neighborhood watch and IF there had been a rash of break ins. I am going to try to find out where this guy headed off to.

The issue is what happened when he found the kid. Which I do not believe there is a clear understanding or evidence of yet.

As I said when the press gets involved these things can get distorted. Back years ago in Detroit there was a huge case over the death of Malice Green. In that case a known drug addict going into a known drug house was confronted by cops. Not relevant to this case other than how the press coverage was terrible and distorted.

 

[Alien Allen]

Do you do everything that you are told not to do?

Yeah, Zimmerman probably should have listened and this situation never happened--but for whatever reason, he felt compelled to follow. Either for reasons like Jay is stating, that he was trying to find out where Martin went to answer the dispatcher, or because he wanted to "stop" Martin--we just don't quite know that.

Now, here's a legitimate question that I just don't know.....do 911 dispatchers have any type of "authority"? If it would have been a police officer on the phone telling him to stop following, then yes--he should have no question. But I don't exactly know how much authority a 911 dispatcher holds.

Not sure if all states would be the same but Natasha should be able answer that.

 

[Aeval]

What is Suspicious Activity?

• Someone screaming or shouting for help
  
• Someone looking into windows and parked cars
  
• Unusual noises
  
• Property being taken out of houses where no one is at home or a business is closed
  
• Cars, vans or trucks moving slowly without apparent destination, or without lights
  
• Anyone being forced into a vehicle
  
• A stranger sitting in a car or stopping to talk to a child
  
• Abandoned cars

A suspicious activity is an occurrence that is out of place and should not be happening in your neighborhood. Report these incidents to the police department. Talk about the problem with your neighbors.

That's the definition of suspicious activity from the City of Orlando & Neighbourhood Watch (http://www.cityoforlando.net/police/citizen_info/neighborhood_watch.htm). A kid walking down a street with a bag of skittles is not listed here. I know this didn't take place in Orlando, so don't chastize me for that...but I'm sure there's a standard "code of practice" for such organizations.

I agree this is far too blown out of proportion in the media, but the fact remains, as a neihbourhood watch "captain" Zimmerman's responsibility was to report suspicious activities to the authorities...end of story. His following Trayvon Martin makes me wonder what his motives were. Did he feel safe in the fact that he was carrying a gun? Did he want to make a name for himself?

 

[Johnfromokc]

Do you do everything that you are told not to do?

As a gun owner and carry permit holder, I know not to persue anyone looking "suspicious" or otherwise. It's just not a reasonable thing to do. Further, when the 911 operator found out Zimmerman was following the kid, he told Zimmerman to stop. That's two strikes against Zimmerman right there.

I add in here that in order to get a concealed carry permit in most states, you have to attend a minimum of eight hours of training. In that training, you are told not to do what Zimmerman did.

Yeah, Zimmerman probably should have listened and this situation never happened--but for whatever reason, he felt compelled to follow. Either for reasons like Jay is stating, that he was trying to find out where Martin went to answer the dispatcher, or because he wanted to "stop" Martin--we just don't quite know that.

It is the responsibility of each of us to learn and understand the law and excercise common sense. Zimmerman failed at both. I read where Zimmerman was enrolled in a law enforcement field of study at a local college. Zimmerman, more so than an average citizen knew better than to do what he did.

Now, here's a legitimate question that I just don't know.....do 911 dispatchers have any type of "authority"? If it would have been a police officer on the phone telling him to stop following, then yes--he should have no question. But I don't exactly know how much authority a 911 dispatcher holds.

That makes zero difference in this case. Zimmerman was violating neighborhood watch rules, and on top of that, he was enrolled in law enforcement training and knew better than to pursue a "suspicious" person on his own. According to Martin's girlfriend who was talking to him on the phone at the time, Martin stated "Someone is following me". Martin was not laying in wait for Zimmerman. Martin was aware that a 250# man was following him. How would you feel if you were Martin in that situation?

Under our Constitution, Zimmerman is entitled to the best defense he can get. But as the facts come out in this case, it is evermore apparent that Zimmerman was the sole cause of this wrongful killing. It is not self defense when you go after someone and scare the hell out of them.

Zimmerman deserves prision time to send a message to other idiot gun toting cop wannabees that this type of behavior will not be tolerated.

 

[Alien Allen]

Zimmerman was the sole cause?

Nothing yet proves that John

We do not know what Martin did or did not do when they met.

Do you know what that neighborhoods watch rules are?

Also your definition of suspicious seems a bit limited John

 

[Johnfromokc]

Zimmerman was the sole cause?

Nothing yet proves that John

The 911 tape does. Martin's girlfriends witness statement does. Zimmerman chose to exit his vehicle. Zimmerman chose to violate neighborhood watch rules. Zimmerman chose to go looking for Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman made all the wrong decisions. Trayvon was a teenaged kid talking on the phone 200 feet from his dads home. Zimmerman has ruined two families lives with his idiotic decisions.

We do not know what Martin did or did not do when they met.

That is irrelevant. Zimmerman caused the incident and the wrongful death of Martin by willfully disregarding the 911 operators instructions and violating neighborhood watch rules.

Do you know what that neighborhoods watch rules are?

I know the two rules he violated:

1. No firearms.

2. No confrontations - call police.

Also your definition of suspicious seems a bit limited John

I don't recall defining suspicious.

 

[Joe the meek]

Stop the presses. Politician's are scattering like rats on a sinking ship. Yeah, sorry. I dont care what politician's think in this matter.

And yes. I can honestly say the cops did their job. Of course, now...who the hell knows what is gonna happen.



I dont disagree. But I think we both disagree on what 'instigated this fight' and brought it to the point of physical violence, and ultimately....death.

You are under the impression that Zimmerman instigated it based on him getting out of his car(armed or not) and trying to see where someone ran off to.

I am under the impression that there is alot more to the story than that.

Lets think about this for a moment. IE. As you say in your post....use your brain.

Just take Zimmerman's 911 call. By the end of the call, he has lost track of Martin. He has no idea where he ran to. He clearly says so. If my mmory serves me correctly, his words are..."He's gone"

Now. The facts. Zimmerman is a 5'9" overweight 28 yr old. Martin is a 6'-6'3"(I have seen both listed) athletic 17 yr old HS football player(not the 12 yr old boy anymore that is depicted in the pictures commonly splashed on the TV to make this national headlines and tug at heart strings)

So. What you are telling me, is that having lost sight of Martin, a 5'9 overweight 28 yr old, not only found the 17yr old football player, but chased him down and got a hold of him? And by some media portrayals, chased him down while yelling racial epithets, foaming at the mouth and cackling like a lunatic and waving a 9mm around? No. There is only one real explanation at this point(although it is just a logical guess). Martin doubled back and confronted Zimmerman. So who is to blame? 'searching to see where someone ran off to' is not a criminal offense....yet. Stupid? yes. But not a criminal offense.

Again, we really do not know what actually happened. We only have bits and pieces of actual facts, an eyewitness account that only saw the fight after it was in progress(yes, it was an actual fight), a few 911 calls, and lots of media hearsay and blatant misinformation. And again, I am not defending Zimmerman. But there are multiple facets that this needs to be looked at, and we have very few real facts.

Does the Martin family feel that their child was taken from them unjustly? You betcha. And I totally understand their feelings, and feel sorry for their loss. But that doesn't mean that the actual situation that occurred was not a real self-defense scenario. And not cold blooded murder at the hands of a crazy racist with an ensuing cover-up by an inept and racist police force.

Jay, I honestly see your point.

Actually, the transcript of the call the John posted in post #97 confirms what you've said.

The thing I'm wondering about is how Martin was able to be ON TOP of Zimmerman BEFORE Zimmerman was able to draw his weapon.

Yes, Zimmerman was wrong to follow, but if he stopped following Martin and then Martin ambushed Zimmerman by surprise, for better or worse, Zimmerman had every right to use deadly force, particularly if Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him. Martin was STUPID for going back if he had an out, and it seems he had an out.

From what I now read that pretty much everyone in Florida agrees that the SYG law does not apply in this case, which I was relieved to read. However, if Zimmerman stopped following Martin and Martin came back to give him an ass whooping, Zimmerman had every right IMO to use deadly force to protect himself.

I was under the impression that Zimmerman initiated and kept contact with Martin by chasing him and Martin decided to stand his ground. Seems I was wrong. Standing your ground isn't retreating, but it's not advancing as well. Seems like a good possibility that Martin advanced.

Kind of shows how two worlds can collide if both parties make bad decisions.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Jay, I honestly see your point.

Actually, the transcript of the call the John posted in post #97 confirms what you've said.

How so? You're gonna have to 'splain your logic here because the 911 transcript and tape clearly shows Zimmerman went after Martin.

The thing I'm wondering about is how Martin was able to be ON TOP of Zimmerman BEFORE Zimmerman was able to draw his weapon.

Zimmerman likely put his hands on Martin and got his fat ass beat. When I was 17, I was attacked by an adult about Zimmermans size. I was about 150# at the time. i was terrified, and in my fear driven adrenalin fueled state, I beat the ever-loving fuck out of the guy. I was more surprised than he was at the outcome.

Yes, Zimmerman was wrong to follow, but if he stopped following Martin and then Martin ambushed Zimmerman by surprise, for better or worse, Zimmerman had every right to use deadly force, particularly if Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him. Martin was STUPID for going back if he had an out, and it seems he had an out.

The evidence thus far does not support that theory Joe. Martin was talking on his mobile phone to his girlfriend. He told her someone was following him. She told him to run. She stated Martin said "Why you following me"? And then she heard a scuffle and the line went dead. This is evidence that Zimmerman approached Martin, not the other way around. If Zimmerman was getting his fat ass kicked in this case, he deserved it.

It seems from what I now read that pretty much everyone in Florida agrees that the SYG law does not apply in this case, which I was relieved to read.

Everyone is agreeing on this point now. I'm still amazed at the number of people attempting to justify this wrongful killing - especially you Joe. You know damned well Zimmerman is one of the too many idiots with guns today.

However, if Zimmerman stopped following Martin and Martin came back to give him an ass whooping, Zimmerman had every right IMO to use deadly force to protect himself.

Again - there is no evidence to support that theory - but there is evidence to support Zimmerman confronting Martin.

I was under the impression that Zimmerman initiated and kept contact with Martin by chasing him. Seems I was wrong.

How do you come to this conclusion????? Explain it with a crayon so a 5th grader can understand it, because I'm looking at the same evidence and it all points to Zimmerman making 100% of the wrong moves.

Kind of shows how two worlds can collide if both parties make bad decisions.

Actually, what this is showing me is that people can convolute logic with twisted thoughts. Trayvon Martin was a teenager walking home 200 feet from his fathers house, talking to his girlfriend on the phone. Now Joe - I know you are a graying old fart like me but I know you remember what it was like to be a horomone filled teenager talking to your girlfriend - you would not be planning to ambush some fat ass dude following you around.

People are checking their fucking brains at the door with all this speculation attempting to exhonerate Zimmerman.

 

[Jaybird]

Is this a neighborhood that has a high crime rate or had a rash of robberies?

In regards to your questions Alien, I agree wit just about all of the answers John gave to your questions, except for this one.

There IS proof that the neighborhood had a crime problem.

That is why the neighborhood created a neighborhood watch, and asked for volunteers.

The people at the Retreat at Twin Lakes had been missing bikes, grills and a few times thought strangers were casing their town houses.

....

The answer may lie in police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death.

In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/c...rtin-a-habitual-caller-to-2247073.html?page=3

That is a lot of police calls in one year for one 'gated community'. Could all of that made Zimmerman see 'suspicious' behavior when there was none? Quite possibly. Does that mean he is some crazed racist that 'profiled' Martin because he was black? Its possible I guess. But that would need to be proven in a court of law. And considering that when he called the operator that day, he didnt call in...a black person walking around the neighborhood acting suspiciously, I would tend to think that race was not a real factor that day. In fact. If you look at the beginning of the call again. He only says what the race of Martin is because he was answering the operators question. And he answered the question of what race is he with..."He looks black" That doesnt sound to me to be the answer of someone 'patrolling the neighborhood looking for black kids to chase down and shoot' nor called his behavior 'suspicious' simply because he was black.

But I really dont want to go down that rabbit hole. The whole race issue was what made this thing national news. Not the actual facts of the shooting.

 

[Jezzebelle]

Jay is there a reason you keep calling him "Zipperhead" instead of "Zimmerman".... or is that simply a typo?

 

[Joe the meek]

People are checking their fucking brains at the door with all this speculation attempting to exhonerate Zimmerman.

John, without knowing all the facts, you can't crucify a guy based on what you think you know.

Do I know the timeline of events and EXACTLY what happened? no.

Now, the girlfriends call to Martin, does the time of the call correlate AT ALL with Zimmerman's call to who he was talking to?

Do I think Zimmerman is a nutcase with a gun? Yes.

However, if Zimmerman stopped his pursuit and Martin came after him, I do believe that Zimmerman had the right to protect himself. Now, if Zimmerman pursued Martin and kept following him and Martin turned around to defend himself, it's a different story.

What I'm wondering about is when Zimmerman was mentioning on his phone about the subject walking towards him. That makes me believe that Zimmerman wasn't approaching Martin, but Martin approaching Zimmerman while Zimmerman was standing still. If I'm in Martin shoes walking towards a guy and that guy is on a phone talking, thinking he is going to jump me isn't my first thought. At this point, I'm thinking that both men used very bad judgement.

If Zimmerman thought Martin was a threat, he should of shot Martin before he was on top of him.

 

[Alien Allen]

Trayvon was a teenaged kid talking on the phone 200 feet from his dads home.

If I was in the same situation as Martin I would have hi tailed it home.

Zimmerman has ruined two families lives with his idiotic decisions.

I don't dispute this. But I still have yet to see anything to place 100% blame on him. There is a lot more to this story I suspect than what the press is making headlines about.

John you have great distrust of the police. Can't say I blame you. Just wish you were as skeptical of the press.

On the radio the other day they were talking about the Olympics bombing in Atlanta and how Richard Jewell was crucified in the press. Only to find out a lot of big assumptions were dead wrong.

 

[Jaybird]

People are checking their fucking brains at the door with all this speculation attempting to exhonerate Zimmerman.

And some are doing it to try to fry him.

Was he stupid to get out of his car? Yes. But getting out of ones car does not remove ones right to defend themselves. If he actually did chase down Martin and confront him, either screaming 'citizens arrest' or yelling racial epithets and foaming at the mouth while waving his weapon around, I would agree with you, and be asking for the book to be thrown at him as well. But there is no evidence that he did any such thing, nor even just....confronted Martin.

Trying to distort what we know, to Zipperhead confronting Martin....actually requires far more twisting of logic, speculation, and flat out ignoring evidence than the opposite imo. Again though, we really do not know all of the details. If it is ever proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Zipperhead actually was the one that confronted Martin, I will come here and tell you I was flat out wrong.

From the standpoint of a gun owner, in Florida, it would be much easier for me to leave Zipperhead out to be hung out to dry. I would rather scream 'He was a lone racist' or 'he was clearly in the wrong'. But that doesnt make either of those two true imo, so I wont say something that I flat out disagree with just because it is easier for me to do so. I stand behind my principles, even when it is hard for me to do so. I stand behind them even when the public and the media disagrees. And I will stand behind them even when the politician's are running and ducking for cover, and some are too scared to speak up for fears that THEIR rights maybe infringed upon because of the media storm. Basically, I would rather stand up for my principles, then hide behind them.

Now....does that mean I am defending Zipperhead? Nope. But I ain't frying him either.

 

[Jaybird]

Jay is there a reason you keep calling him "Zipperhead" instead of "Zimmerman".... or is that simply a typo?

Because I do think he made mistakes. But that doesnt mean he is criminally liable for those mistakes.

If ever faced with a similar situation, there are a few things that I would have done completely differently.

1. I would not have gotten out of the car. I would have waited for the police to show up at that point. I would have been far more cautious in this scenario. Does that mean I think Zipperhead 'escalated' things? Not necessarily. Do I think getting out of the car removed his right to self defense? No. But it was still a really stupid thing to do.

2. If I HAD actually gotten out of the car, and was on the phone with 911 or a non emergency operator that was recording my call, I never would have gotten off the phone until the police arrived. One thing I have always been taught, and would instruct others, that if you are planning on using your weapon, and HAVE TIME, to call 911. Heck. Call 911 and leave the phone sitting on the bedstand or in your pocket. But leave the call open so it can be recorded. You want as much evidence as possible in a real self defense shooting situation. But MAybe Zipperhead felt 'safe' at this point. And was like, oh well, the kid is gone, I can just go back to my car. Again. I would not have let the non emergency operator end the call with me, nor would I have ended the call myself until the police arrived.

3. I dont think he even had a Lawyer with him when interrogated. He may have though. But I am unsure. But if I ever had to use my weapon in a self-defense scenario, the most the cops would get out of me was "I was in fear for my life, and I want to speak to an attorney."

4. Once this thing went wacko and national, and took on all the racial overtones, he desperately needed a lawyer out there trying to do some damage control. I finally hear that he has a lawyer speaking for him now, but I think it is way too late at this point.

Did he make other mistakes that day? Possibly. I do not know and wont say definitively whether lethal force was 'justified' But again, I wasn't in the situation. I didnt have a 6'3" 'kid' on top of me beating me up. I also would hope to be far more vigilant when all of a sudden being faced with being 'out in the open'. I would hope to have been far less likely to have someone get a drop on me(like may have occurred). But that is all totally speculation, so I wont even number them. *shrug*

 

[Jezzebelle]

I still don't understand why you're calling him by the wrong name?

 

[Jaybird]

I still don't understand why you're calling him by the wrong name?

Zipperhead to me is kind of like calling him Meathead.

But....ahhh. I just looked on Urban Dictionary And Zipperhead is actually a racial slur for asian people. Wow. I totally didnt know that. Holy shit. :/

Okay. Back to Meathead.

Sorry. :/