Trayvon Martin- Tragedy

[Johnfromokc]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/c...rtin-a-habitual-caller-to-2247073.html?page=3

That is a lot of police calls in one year for one 'gated community'.

From the article you linked to - Zimmerman made 46 calls to 911 over a two-month period and was known as a "habitual 911 caller by the Sanford Police. If 46 calls in two months were typical of Zimmerman, then annually that adds up to 276 out of 400 911 calls made by Zimmerman.

Also from the article you linked to:

Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival said she met Zimmerman in September at a community neighborhood watch presentation.

“I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out,’  ” Dorival said. “‘Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about not being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.”

Zimmerman knew better but chose to ignore the police departments instructions. Add in the FACT that he was in a law enforcement training program as a cop-hopeful and that makes him fully aware and fully responsible for the wrongful death of Martin.

 

[Jaybird]

From the article you linked to - Zimmerman made 46 calls to 911 over a two-month period and was known as a "habitual 911 caller by the Sanford Police. If 46 calls in two months were typical of Zimmerman, then annually that adds up to 276 out of 400 911 calls made by Zimmerman.

That maybe true. I am sure if they were able to tll us how many calls were made in the past 4 months though, that they would know how many calls were made over a year. Of course, Zimmerman also was dialing non emergency line this day. Not 911.

And even if EVERYONE of those 400 calls were made by Zimmerman, does that make him a murderer? If he was abusing the 911 system, dont you think the cops would have charged him WITH THAT? We do not know if any or everyone of those previous 400 calls were warranted, nor who made them. Its not for you to assume what it means, and thus turn him into a murderer racist.

Also from the article you linked to:

Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival said she met Zimmerman in September at a community neighborhood watch presentation.

“I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out,’  ” Dorival said. “‘Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about not being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.”

Zimmerman knew better but chose to ignore the police departments instructions. Add in the FACT that he was in a law enforcement training program as a cop-hopeful and that makes him fully aware and fully responsible for the wrongful death of Martin.

As has been said. He was not out 'patrolling' the neighborhood that night. He was a citizen on his way back home from an errand. So what that he was armed. He does have a right to be armed. Unless Johnfromokc, Mr NRA life member and concealed carry permit holder(by your own words), you want to tell me that a citizen that has a concealed carry permit is not allowed to carry a concealed firearm.

And even if he was 'on patrol' although there is no evidence to say he was, again....so what that he was armed. Again. It is not against any LAW.

Observed from a safe location? We dont know how close Zimmerman was to Martin at anytime until the confrontation occurred. Maybe he thought he was far enough away to 'observe which way someone was running' Maybe he just got caught up in trying to answer the operators questions.

Or maybe, he WAS a wannabe LEO. That still doent mean he did anything criminal, nor actually 'confronted' a 'kid' that towered over him. And it is not for the mob to decide.

 

[Johnfromokc]

John, without knowing all the facts, you can't crucify a guy based on what you think you know.

Fact #1 Zimmerman had been told by the Sanford PD NOT TO CONFRONT anyone. I'll repeat this yet again to drive the point of personal responsibility home:

Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival said she met Zimmerman in September at a community neighborhood watch presentation.

“I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out,’  ” Dorival said. “‘Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about not being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.”

Fact #2 - The 911 transcripts.

Fact #3 - The GF's witness statement.

Fact # 4 - There is evedence of witness tampering by Sanfor PD.

Fact #5 - There are additional eye witnesses that do not back up Zimmermans account of what happened.

Do I know the timeline of events and EXACTLY what happened? no.

Read the freaking 911 transcripts AGAIN - but this time really read them and absorb what was said and the sequence of events. I've even posted the audio of the call.

Now, the girlfriends call to Martin, does the time of the call correlate AT ALL with Zimmerman's call to who he was talking to?

Yes it does. The witness statement says that she heard Martin ask Zimmerman "Why you following me?" and that she then heard what she described as scuffling and then the line went dead. Now how could that have happened during or before the 911 call Joe?

Do I think Zimmerman is a nutcase with a gun? Yes.

Another point of agreement. Add in he was a cop hopeful in a college law enforcement program.

However, if Zimmerman stopped his pursuit and Martin came after him, I do believe that Zimmerman had the right to protect himself. Now, if Zimmerman pursued Martin and kept following him and Martin turned around to defend himself, it's a different story.

Jesus H. Fucking Christ - Come on Joe - you are my oldest internet friend - surely you are not that thick. You gotta be shitting me.......right? Go back and look at the 911 call and the witness statement and tell me you actually believe Martin attacked Zimmerman. The evidence supports that Zimmerman approached Martin.

What I'm wondering about is when Zimmerman was mentioning on his phone about the subject walking towards him.

Must....resist....facepalm........:willy_nilly: This statement tells me you are not paying attention to the 911 call. If you read the transcript and listen to the audio of Zimmerman, Zimmerman states "he is looking at me" and then some time later - 30 seconds to a minute or so - Zimmerman says "he's running away". Then the 911 operator asks "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says "yes". Operator says "You don't need to do that".

Got it now???????

That makes me believe that Zimmerman wasn't approaching Martin, but Martin approaching Zimmerman while Zimmerman was standing still. If I'm in Martin shoes walking towards a guy and that guy is on a phone talking, thinking he is going to jump me isn't my first thought. At this point, I'm thinking that both men used very bad judgement.

This makes me believe - no, check that - KNOW you did not read the transcript very well nor did you listen to the audio.

Zimmerman should hope he gets 12 jurors that examine the evidence as dyslexically as you have here. He will not only walk, but be awarded a full time job on the Sanford PD.

If Zimmerman thought Martin was a threat, he should of shot Martin before he was on top of him.

Zimmerman should have used common sense and done what he was TRAINED to do. He did not, and now he is at the very least guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

 

[Johnfromokc]

John you have great distrust of the police. Can't say I blame you. Just wish you were as skeptical of the press.

I do distrust the press Allen - but the press did not alter the 911 transcripts and audio, nor did they make up the rules for the neighborhood watch, nor did they make up the witness statements.

On the radio the other day they were talking about the Olympics bombing in Atlanta and how Richard Jewell was crucified in the press. Only to find out a lot of big assumptions were dead wrong.

I was living in Atlanta in 1996. The press did not crucify Jewell - The Atlanta PD and the FBI did. The press just reported what they were doing to him. And the press also went out of its way to exonerate him afterward, giving him as much face time as he wanted.

 

[Johnfromokc]

That maybe true. I am sure if they were able to tll us how many calls were made in the past 4 months though, that they would know how many calls were made over a year. Of course, Zimmerman also was dialing non emergency line this day. Not 911.

Goes to show Zimmerman was obsessed. Did you even bother to read the article YOU posted? You really should fully read what you post instead of extracting tidbits you think supports your position. That article made Zimmerman look neurotic.

And even if EVERYONE of those 400 calls were made by Zimmerman, does that make him a murderer? If he was abusing the 911 system, dont you think the cops would have charged him WITH THAT? We do not know if any or everyone of those previous 400 calls were warranted, nor who made them. Its not for you to assume what it means, and thus turn him into a murderer racist.

For the record - I've never used the term Racist describing Zimmermen. I don't think he is a Racist - but I do think he is deluded and neurotic in his thought processes concerning his percieved responsibilities as a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain.

As has been said. He was not out 'patrolling' the neighborhood that night.

From your article - again:

“He would circle the block and circle it; it was weird,” said Teontae Amie, 17. “If he had spotted me, he’d probably ask me if I lived here. He was known for being really strict.”

He was a citizen on his way back home from an errand. So what that he was armed. He does have a right to be armed. Unless Johnfromokc, Mr NRA life member and concealed carry permit holder(by your own words), you want to tell me that a citizen that has a concealed carry permit is not allowed to carry a concealed firearm.

Zimmerman had every right to carry his weapon - but he had NO FUCKING RIGHT to act as a citizen vigilante. A concealed carry permit does not permit anyone to violate any other citizens civil rights to be secure in one's person - that's in the Constitution - look it up.

And even if he was 'on patrol' although there is no evidence to say he was, again....so what that he was armed. Again. It is not against any LAW.

It may not be against any law, however, it was against the neighborhood watch rules and against police advice and is an aggravating factor in the case that can and should be used in the prosecution of Zimmerman.

Observed from a safe location? We dont know how close Zimmerman was to Martin at anytime until the confrontation occurred. Maybe he thought he was far enough away to 'observe which way someone was running' Maybe he just got caught up in trying to answer the operators questions.

Zimmerman needs people like you AND Joe on his jury. How could Zimmerman have "been caught up trying to answer the operators questions" when the confrontation occurred AFTER he had HUNG UP??????????????????

Or maybe, he WAS a wannabe LEO. That still doent mean he did anything criminal, nor actually 'confronted' a 'kid' that towered over him. And it is not for the mob to decide.

Yet another aggravating factor (look that legal term up) that will not help Zimmermans court case.

 

[Mercury]

Ah yes, the Zimmerman case. What a messy situation. Found this today ...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505266_...ssue-with-client/?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.0

Racism or Stereotyping? I am thinking the latter.

 

[Jaybird]

Goes to show Zimmerman was obsessed. Did you even bother to read the article YOU posted? You really should fully read what you post instead of extracting tidbits you think supports your position. That article made Zimmerman look neurotic.

Uh huh. Just like every other article that has been characterizing him as a crazed loon over the past week. I took the facts out and posted them here. If you want to believe everything the media portrays, that is your choice. I choose to take views and opinions of the press with a bit of skepticism, but YMMV.

For the record - I've never used the term Racist describing Zimmermen. I don't think he is a Racist - but I do think he is deluded and neurotic in his thought processes concerning his percieved responsibilities as a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain.

Well, you are better than the press on the racist part at least. For the rest, that is all hearsay, and not fact.

Zimmerman had every right to carry his weapon - but he had NO FUCKING RIGHT to act as a citizen vigilante. A concealed carry permit does not permit anyone to violate any other citizens civil rights to be secure in one's person - that's in the Constitution - look it up.

Duh. Nor have I ever said it was. But that is just more of you....putting words into my mouth, that never came out of it.

It may not be against any law, however, it was against the neighborhood watch rules and against police advice and is an aggravating factor in the case that can and should be used in the prosecution of Zimmerman.

Possibly. And maybe it was considered. You do not know anything about the actual investigation. Neither do I. But to make a blanket statement that it absolutely can not be self-defense is where you are wrong.

Zimmerman needs people like you AND Joe on his jury. How could Zimmerman have "been caught up trying to answer the operators questions" when the confrontation occurred AFTER he had HUNG UP??????????????????

You mean...people like me and Joe that actually look at facts? Yes. I agree than. He does need someone like me and Joe on the Jury. It is the only way he will get a fair trial at this point.

Yet another aggravating factor (look that legal term up) that will not help Zimmermans court case.

*yawn* Yes. I said 'maybe' he was. And it is not for you nor the mob to decide.

 

[Alien Allen]

John

I won't let this make the thread get off track but tell me if you think OJ was set up or guilty? No need for an explanation, just a simple guilty or set up

 

[Johnfromokc]

You mean...people like me and Joe that actually look at facts? Yes. I agree than. He does need someone like me and Joe on the Jury. It is the only way he will get a fair trial at this point.

But you have not looked at the facts if either of you think Zimmerman could have "been caught up trying to answer the operators questions" when the confrontation occurred AFTER he had HUNG UP. Care to explain that shit Jaybird?

It's really fucking simple to read transcripts and listen to the audio - simple reading comprehension.

 

[Johnfromokc]

John

I won't let this make the thread get off track but tell me if you think OJ was set up or guilty? No need for an explanation, just a simple guilty or set up

Allen - What has that got to do with this issue?

 

[Jaybird]

Hey John,

Here is some hearsay that you wont actually find anywhere else. Call it, my personal scoop to you.

I normally would not do this, because it could be a total fabrication. So, as I post it, take it with a HUGE grain of salt. But it was posted on a local gun rights forum, touted by the member to be an account of one of the officers that was on scene very early. It sounds a lot like what could have happened. But again, it could also just be all made up.

Again. These are not my own words. So, I do not claim any of it to be 100% fact, nor any opinions expressed in it to be mine.

You've seen the photos of Zimmerman and Martin superimposed next to each other in the articles that have been floating around. What you haven't seen is that Zimmerman was about 60 pounds heavier in that photo than he actually is. By the same token, the photos of Martin were taken several years ago when he was a young boy. Not at all what he was when he had this altercation with Zimmerman. At that time, he was a couple of months away from his 18th birthday and, according to the officer I spoke to, about the same size as me. I'm 6'4" and 250 lbs. Martin was definitely big enough to cause major problems for Zimmerman, not the small defenseless boy they are picturing him to be.

Here's a fact that makes a difference. Martin WAS in fact, beating the shit out of Zimmerman. Zimmerman's face was bruised and bleeding when he was interviewed by the police department. Martin had not a scratch on him other than the bullet hole in his chest. Witnesses who saw what happened consistently reported this and correctly described the clothing of the person on top doing the beating and the person on the bottom getting the shit beat out of him. It was very apparent that it was indeed Martin who was beating Zimmerman.

Absolutely, Zimmerman should not have confronted or followed Martin and yes, he put himself in that situation. By the same token, when Martin realized he was being followed, he didn't run off to escape, he found a hiding place and waited to confront Zimmerman. As Zimmerman came near, Martin popped out and began an aggressive confrontation with Zimmerman and attacked him. As he took him to ground and got on top of him and proceeded to beat him up, Zimmerman's shirt started to ride up and expose the pistol he was carrying. Martin saw it and went for it, threatening to kill Zimmerman with it. Zimmerman was able to get it first and shot Martin in the chest. That last is according to Zimmerman and partly corroborated by witnesses. The officer also told me that Zimmerman has told the same story several times since the shooting and has passed two polygraph tests with his version of what happened. He is also cooperating fully.

The Sanford police force submitted their case against Zimmerman as a third degree murder case to the state prosecutor but the state declined to prosecute because A), they felt it WAS self defense and B) it would have violated Zimmerman's rights because they lacked sufficient probable cause to arrest him. Also, once a citizen is arrested, it starts the clock ticking on the right to a speedy trial and they have 30 days to put a homicide case together which is not remotely possible.

Now. Maybe Zimmerman will eventually see his day in court. And maybe he will be found guilty of something. Maybe. Maybe. But one important thing to note. It wasnt the PD that said Zimmerman was not going to be prosecuted. It was the DA. And that would be supported by actual real fact. It has been reported that the PD turned over its investigation to the DA on March 13th. That is almost two weeks ago, and long before this became a national story on race, and the FL Stand your Ground law, and the portrayal of the Sanford PD as a bunch of inept racists. And under the SYG law, it is not the police that can say a case wont be prosecuted. That is, and has always been the job of the DA....even in wonky ole Florida. And if he was charged, any SYG defense would be up in front of a Judge to determine if it has any relevance. Not the cops. Is there changes that maybe needed in FL's SYG law? Possibly. But I honestly do not think it has anything to do with this particular case. At this point, it has taken on a political edge pushed by a few national news media outlets. But....that is just my opinion. *shrug*

 

[Jaybird]

But you have not looked at the facts if either of you think Zimmerman could have "been caught up trying to answer the operators questions" when the confrontation occurred AFTER he had HUNG UP. Care to explain that shit Jaybird?

It's really fucking simple to read transcripts and listen to the audio - simple reading comprehension.

Quite simply. That is why he exited his vehicle. Because he got caught up in answering the operators question of...."Which way is he running?"

If you listen to the tape....you can hear when he opens the door. And it is right after the operator asks him this question. Now, that is just my opinion based on the call. But you can bet something like that, ie the way the defense would argue a case would be considered by the prosecution before they file charges.

Listen. I get it. And I understand that Trayvon may have been doing nothing but walking home from the store with some skittles and ice tea. And certainly, Zimmerman may have made some mistakes. But you weren't there for the actual altercation, or confrontation. You do not know what happened. If you want to think that Zimmerman deserves to be charged with 1st degree Murder and ride ole sparky, you are allowed to think that as well. But actually look at all the facts, and dont sit there and blindly absorb the garbage MSNBC spoon feeds to those that like to watch the latest car wreck.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Hey John,

Here is some hearsay that you wont actually find anywhere else. Call it, my personal scoop to you.

I normally would not do this, because it could be a total fabrication. So, as I post it, take it with a HUGE grain of salt. But it was posted on a local gun rights forum, touted by the member to be an account of one of the officers that was on scene very early. It sounds a lot like what could have happened. But again, it could also just be all made up.

Sounds like just so much gun rights forum horse shit. THIS OTOH - is not hearsay, and is the witness statement verbatim from the girl on the phone at the time of the killing:

"He says: 'Oh, he's right behind me. He's right behind me again,'"

"She says: 'Run.' He says: 'I'm not going to run, I'm just going to walk fast.'

She then heard Martin saying "Why are you following me" and another voice saying "What are you doing here?"

She said they both repeated themselves, and then she thinks she heard Zimmerman push Martin "because his voice changes, like something interrupted his speech." She heard an altercation and then the phone call was cut off, Crump said.

When police arrived a minute later, at 7.17pm, Martin was lying dead in the street.

Now - you tell me Jay - which version is more credible?

 

[Jaybird]

Sounds like just so much gun rights forum horse shit. THIS OTOH - is not hearsay, and is the witness statement verbatim from the girl on the phone at the time of the killing:


Now - you tell me Jay - which version is more credible?

More credible? To me? Neither is more credible. As I said, my post was not my opinion nor did I say it was fact. Nor would I say your post is fact nor credible either. Is it recorded into evidence? Has this person been cross-examined? Has this person even been allowed to be interviewed by police, the prosecution, or anyone involved in the case? IDK.

One person can say whatever the hell they want to. As I have said previously, we have very little facts in this case from a public standpoint. And that is the way it typically is. But, if you think someone should be arrested and charged, and prosecuted on hearsay? Yeah....I just flat out disagree with that, and always will. *shrug*

 

[Johnfromokc]

More credible? To me? Neither is more credible.

You're kidding right? Your scenario is pure hearsay, whereas mine is admissible evidence as witness testimony. Huge difference.

Every part of my argument is backed by admissible evidence:

1. The 911 audio and transcripts.

2. Witness tesimony.

3. Aggravating factors.

My dad used to say "If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass." Based on admissable evidence, Zimmerman's ass is probably going to get bumped frequently in prison.

 

[Minderella]

Eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable......She could have heard something different, misremembered something. There is no tape of her conversation with Martin, is there?

 

[Jaybird]

You're kidding right? Your scenario is pure hearsay, whereas mine is admissible evidence as witness testimony. Huge difference.

Every part of my argument is backed by admissible evidence:

1. The 911 audio and transcripts.

2. Witness tesimony.

3. Aggravating factors.

My dad used to say "If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass." Based on admissable evidence, Zimmerman's ass is probably going to get bumped frequently in prison.

Okay John. You are right. Does that make you happy? I personally dont care what you think anymore. I have presented enough actual facts in this thread. And that girls story is highly problematic and therefore not credible at this time. And we do not even know if she is cooperating with authorities.

But, if Zimmerman did undergo a polygraph and passed, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be admitted. The 911 tapes will certainly be admitted, and they can easily show what I have presented way earlier in this thread.

Actual eye witness testimony(that we know of) has Martin on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman screaming out for help, and MArtin kicking his ass. I hope you are never faced with a situation like that, and are screaming out for help so loudly that your screams can be heard on a phone within a home and sound absolutely terrified....ie, like you can lose your life, and eye witnesses run by into their home without helping. Yeah. As I said, you were not there. And it wasnt your screams heard on that tape, nor were they Martins based on actual eye witness testimony. No. They were Zimmerman's, and he was screaming as loud as he probably could for help. And no one came to his aid. It certainly sounded like someone in fear for their life to me.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I have presented enough actual facts in this thread.

Ummmm no, you haven't. Specualtion? Yup. Hearsay? Yup. Facts? Nope.

And that girls story is highly problematic and therefore not credible at this time. And we do not even know if she is cooperating with authorities.

She is a material witness and her testimony is admissible and subject to cross examination.

But, if Zimmerman did undergo a polygraph and passed, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be admitted.

Wrong. Polygraphs are inadmissable in Florida:

In the Florida case of Kaminski v. State, 63 So. 2d 339 the Supreme Court of Florida said that lie detector evidence “would not have been admissible directly and it was not admissible by inference.”

The reasoning according to the court is that it is not sufficiently reliable to pass the Frye test for admissibility of scientific evidence under Florida law.

"The results of a polygraph test remain inadmissible in both civil and criminal cases because of unreliability."

Lane v. State, 762 So. 2d 560, 561 (Fla. 5th DCA 2000) (citing Farmer v. City of Ft. Lauderdale, 427 So. 2d 187 (Fla.1983); Kaminski v. State, 63 So. 2d 339 (Fla.1952))

The 911 tapes will certainly be admitted, and they can easily show what I have presented way earlier in this thread.

See above - inadmissable in Florida. You really don't know much about your own state law do you Jay? You can look this information up on the internet.

Actual eye witness testimony(that we know of) has Martin on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman screaming out for help, and MArtin kicking his ass.

There are several witnesses, and only one thus far has come out in support of Zimmermans version. We will see what the witnesses say in court - but as of now, Zimmerman is in deep shit.

I hope you are never faced with a situation like that, and are screaming out for help so loudly that your screams can be heard on a phone within a home and sound absolutely terrified....ie, like you can lose your life, and eye witnesses run by into their home without helping.

Won't happen because I know better than to follow "suspicious" people around my neighborhood with a gun. It's really easy to avoid situations like that.

Yeah. As I said, you were not there. And it wasnt your screams heard on that tape, nor were they Martins based on actual eye witness testimony.

You have bought into some gun rights forum bullshit story. The jurors who will be selected for the trial will not have been there either. But they will be shown the same evidence I have seen, sans your hearsay gun forum garbage.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable......She could have heard something different, misremembered something. There is no tape of her conversation with Martin, is there?

It is still admissable evidence subject to cross examination. While a recording of the conversation is unlikely, the time stamps of the telephone connection will corroborate her testimony.

 

[Minderella]

Yes, of course it's admissible evidence--but that doesn't mean that it's 100% correct. Sure, they can look at time stamps and see that she was on the phone at the time--but she may have forgotten to relay a critical piece of information, or she may have mixed something up, or someone may have spoken to her before the media/police and she may have changed her story, etc. etc. etc. Without a recording of THAT specific conversation, we don't know if what she is telling us is exactly correct either.