Trayvon Martin- Tragedy

[CityGirl]

And that is another disturbing thing that has been skewed by the mainstream media.

They make the whole police force out to be a bunch of racist inept bastards.

Its like they are saying, when the cops got there, they were like..."Oh, one more dead black kid. Bag him and tag him. Oh, you...Zipperhead, yeah, it was self defense. Just remember that, and all will be okay"

Come on Folks. This isn't 1950 Mississippi with a bunch of KKK guys running around.

And Zipperhead was not about to get away with anything. He would have gone in front of a judge, even if he claimed self-defense under SYG. The FL supreme court has already ruled that any SYG claims have to be decided ultimately by a judge, in at least a pre-trial hearing. So any claims that he was gonna walk free with no further action are just false and another example of how the national media has twisted this thing to push an agenda.

Is the scene investigated in the same manner as a homicide?

 

[Johnfromokc]

Zimmerman had to fucking RUN to catch the kid!!! Unbelieveable!!!Listen to Zimmerman's 911 call:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOpGAOXL5Uk

 

[Jaybird]

Is the scene investigated in the same manner as a homicide?

The scene would be investigated like any crime scene. A plea of self defense in a pre-trial hearing would happen after the investigation was complete, and the information was turned over to the prosecutors office.

Like is happening. Although because of all the publicity this case has gotten, a grand jury will be called instead of the prosecutors office deciding what charges can be determined. But that may have happened anyways. One or the other would have. We don't really know which it was gonna be.

But the police do not decide...this case is not going to trial. No matter what they think. Of course, if they think it is self defense, going to full trial is not going to go well.

Think about it. You take someone to trial. You put a cop on the stand, who says...this was self defense. How is that gonna play out for the jury.

 

[Natasha]

*unsubscribe*

Yeah, I punched out before I finished the first page. I think the dead kid is evidence enough that Zimmerman failed to stop following him, but call me crazy. :dunno

And I'm officially sick of hearing of this case now.

 

[Jaybird]

^^but all of my last post is only applicable under SYG. Not under normal self-defense, like in every other jurisdiction in this country. And that is what I have been saying, this has nothing to do with SYG, and eve the cops no that. It has to do with plain vanilla self defense.

If the cops say it looks like self defense, and turn that info over to the prosecutors office, then the prosecutor has to decide...do I still take this to trial? That is how it works EVERYWHERE in this country. The prosecutor, not the cops, make that decision.

Honestly, I think they left it to a grand jury, because no one wants to touch a losing case and be blamed for it.
But that, is only my opinion.

 

[Johnfromokc]

The scene would be investigated like any crime scene. A plea of self defense in a pre-trial hearing would happen after the investigation was complete, and the information was turned over to the prosecutors office.

There was no intent to file charges against Zimmerman until the public outcry for justice. THAT is why the shit has hit the fan.

Like is happening. Although because of all the publicity this case has gotten, a grand jury will be called instead of the prosecutors office deciding what charges can be determined. But that may have happened anyways. One or the other would have. We don't really know which it was gonna be.

NOTHING was going to happen. The police chief had publicly stated it was "self defense".

But the police do not decide...this case is not going to trial. No matter what they think. Of course, if they think it is self defense, going to full trial is not going to go well.

The police do indeed decide whether to charge someone with a crime or not. Prosecutors then decide whether or not to persue prosecution. The police had no intention to charge Zimmerman with anything until Martin's parents pushed the issue.

Think about it. You take someone to trial. You put a cop on the stand, who says...this was self defense. How is that gonna play out for the jury.

The 911 call from Zimmerman ALONE is enough to indict Zimmerman. He (Zimmerman) got out of his car and chased the kid down with a gun. The cops botched this investigation and they should also be investigated by the feds and charged if found criminally negligent.

"Stand Your Ground" does not mean "Chase Them Down" because you "think" someone "looks suspicious".

I'm absolutely amazed that anyone could come to Zimmermans defense after the release of the 911 tapes.

 

[Jaybird]

I'm sitting here with an actual criminal defense attorney in my area having a beer. It is interesting that she agrees with me. I know that is nothing. I just wanted to say that I was out with a hot female attorney in my area drinking a beer.

 

[rback33]

Lol I am a few beers deep and owe u rep Jay.

 

[Darrell]

I'm sitting here with an actual criminal defense attorney in my area having a beer. It is interesting that she agrees with me. I know that is nothing. I just wanted to say that I was out with a hot female attorney in my area drinking a beer.

You left off the part she is charging you $300 an hour, I hope you drink it quick. :tooth

 

[Johnfromokc]

Even Jeb Bush says SYG does not apply in this case. So WTF are people still defending this fucktard Zimmerman for? :dunno Only a defense attorney could defend his sorry ass now and that's for constitutional reasons.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/comm...our-ground-invalid-in-trayvon-martin-case.ece

Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said Friday that the “stand your ground” self-defense law he signed while in office should not apply to the case of a teenager who was shot by a neighborhood watch volunteer in his home state.

“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance,”

“Stand your ground means stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”

Can anyone honestly say the cops did their jobs investigating this issue with anything remotely resembling competence?

 

[Joe the meek]

So, if you did all of that, without a firearm, and ended up killing someone with one clean punch to the temple, would you be afforded any kind of protection under self defense laws?

Or, is it only when one has a gun on, that they cant 'escalate a situation'?

Honestly, I've never thought about it. Generally speaking, if you use your brain, you keep yourself OUT of trouble before it happens.

However, if it could be shown that you instigated the "fight" and you killed someone, I'm sure they would get you for something.

 

[Jaybird]

Even Jeb Bush says SYG does not apply in this case. So WTF are people still defending this fucktard Zimmerman for? :dunno Only a defense attorney could defend his sorry ass now and that's for constitutional reasons.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/comm...our-ground-invalid-in-trayvon-martin-case.ece



Can anyone honestly say the cops did their jobs investigating this issue with anything remotely resembling competence?

Stop the presses. Politician's are scattering like rats on a sinking ship. Yeah, sorry. I dont care what politician's think in this matter.

And yes. I can honestly say the cops did their job. Of course, now...who the hell knows what is gonna happen.

Honestly, I've never thought about it. Generally speaking, if you use your brain, you keep yourself OUT of trouble before it happens.

However, if it could be shown that you instigated the "fight" and you killed someone, I'm sure they would get you for something.

I dont disagree. But I think we both disagree on what 'instigated this fight' and brought it to the point of physical violence, and ultimately....death.

You are under the impression that Zimmerman instigated it based on him getting out of his car(armed or not) and trying to see where someone ran off to.

I am under the impression that there is alot more to the story than that.

Lets think about this for a moment. IE. As you say in your post....use your brain.

Just take Zimmerman's 911 call. By the end of the call, he has lost track of Martin. He has no idea where he ran to. He clearly says so. If my mmory serves me correctly, his words are..."He's gone"

Now. The facts. Zimmerman is a 5'9" overweight 28 yr old. Martin is a 6'-6'3"(I have seen both listed) athletic 17 yr old HS football player(not the 12 yr old boy anymore that is depicted in the pictures commonly splashed on the TV to make this national headlines and tug at heart strings)

So. What you are telling me, is that having lost sight of Martin, a 5'9 overweight 28 yr old, not only found the 17yr old football player, but chased him down and got a hold of him? And by some media portrayals, chased him down while yelling racial epithets, foaming at the mouth and cackling like a lunatic and waving a 9mm around? No. There is only one real explanation at this point(although it is just a logical guess). Martin doubled back and confronted Zimmerman. So who is to blame? 'searching to see where someone ran off to' is not a criminal offense....yet. Stupid? yes. But not a criminal offense.

Again, we really do not know what actually happened. We only have bits and pieces of actual facts, an eyewitness account that only saw the fight after it was in progress(yes, it was an actual fight), a few 911 calls, and lots of media hearsay and blatant misinformation. And again, I am not defending Zimmerman. But there are multiple facets that this needs to be looked at, and we have very few real facts.

Does the Martin family feel that their child was taken from them unjustly? You betcha. And I totally understand their feelings, and feel sorry for their loss. But that doesn't mean that the actual situation that occurred was not a real self-defense scenario. And not cold blooded murder at the hands of a crazy racist with an ensuing cover-up by an inept and racist police force.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Stop the presses. Politician's are scattering like rats on a sinking ship. Yeah, sorry. I dont care what politician's think in this matter.

So you think it is lawful inder SYG to chase someone down, confront them, and then shoot them?

And yes. I can honestly say the cops did their job. Of course, now...who the hell knows what is gonna happen.

And how would you know that? Are you a Sanford cop? Are you a homocide investigator? Were you there to witness the investigation?

Explain how you can listen to the 911 tape, hear the 911 operator tell Zimmerman not to go after Martin, hear Zimmerman say "he's running away", hear Zimmerman exit his car and give chase, and still say the cops did their job and the law was followed?

 

[Jaybird]

So you think it is lawful inder SYG to chase someone down, confront them, and then shoot them?

Who says that is what happened? You? The media? People that didnt see the situation? Who says that is what happened....that actually have any real evidence in this case?

And how would you know that? Are you a Sanford cop? Are you a homocide investigator? Were you there to witness the investigation?

And who are you to say they didnt do a complete job?

You said this "Can anyone honestly say the cops did their jobs investigating this issue with anything remotely resembling competence?" If you can say that they didnt, then I can say they did. If you dont like it, stop doing it yourself!

Explain how you can listen to the 911 tape, hear the 911 operator tell Zimmerman not to go after Martin, hear Zimmerman say "he's running away", hear Zimmerman exit his car and give chase, and still say the cops did their job and the law was followed?

You need to actually listen to the tapes if that is the order you put all of those events. Either you are misinformed, or are purposefully placing them into the wrong order of occurrence to suit your needs.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Who says that is what happened? You? The media? People that didnt see the situation? Who says that is what happened....that actually have any real evidence in this case?

Zimmermans call to 911 is evidence he chased Martin down AFTER he was told not to.

And who are you to say they didnt do a complete job?

I'm a citizen like any who could be called as a potential juror to examine evidence - the 911 call from Zimmerman being a primary factor.

You said this "Can anyone honestly say the cops did their jobs investigating this issue with anything remotely resembling competence?" If you can say that they didnt, then I can say they did. If you dont like it, stop doing it yourself!

There was no homicide investigation. Zimmerman was not alcohol and drug tested. Common homocide procedures were not followed. Police had to be forced to release the 911 tapes.

You need to actually listen to the tapes if that is the order you put all of those events. Either you are misinformed, or are purposefully placing them into the wrong order of occurrence to suit your needs.

Seems you are the one who has not listened. Here's the transcript from Zimmermans 911 call:

...............................................


.................................................



..................................................


Can you honestly read the transcript and say Zimmerman did not chase Martin down? He even told the 911 operator he did not know where the kid went. So Zimmerman had to go after the kid and confront him - AFTER he had hung up from the 911 call and Martin was completely out of sight.

Once Zimmerman confronted Martin, Martin likely feared for his safety and put a nice ass whipping on Zimmermans fat ass - which Zimmerman deserved at that point. The fact that Zimmerman persured Martin and confronted him means that SYG does not apply and Zimmerman is no different than any one else who picks a fight that results in a death.

 

[Jaybird]

Zimmermans call to 911 is evidence he chased Martin down AFTER he was told not to.

No. It is not.

I'm a citizen like any who could be called as a potential juror to examine evidence - the 911 call from Zimmerman being a primary factor.

And I think the NON EMERGENCY, not 911 call...actually shows otherwise, and supports not contradicts the story.

There was no homicide investigation. Zimmerman was not alcohol and drug tested. Common homocide procedures were not followed. Police had to be forced to release the 911 tapes.

How do you know what investigation took place? Because the media said so? And police forces normally do not release calls in an active investigation. It is going to be near impossible for Zipperhead to get a fair trial now.

Seems you are the one who has not listened. Here's the transcript from Zimmerman.


Can you honestly read the transcript and say Zimmerman did not chase Martin down? He even told the 911 operator he did not know where the kid went. So Zimmerman had to go after the kid and confront him - AFTER he had hung up from the 911 call and Martin was completely out of sight.

Once Zimmerman confronted Martin, Martin likely feared for his safety and put a nice ass whipping on Zimmermans fat ass - which Zimmerman deserved at that point. The fact that Zimmerman persured Martin and confronted him means that SYG does not apply and Zimmerman is no different than any one else who picks a fight that results in a death.

Transcripts dont tell half the story. Listen to the actual call. You can hear when he opens the car door. You can hear heavy breathing when he is running to see where Martin went...to answer the non emergency operators question.

And you have no evidence that it was Zipperhead that confronted MArtin. You are flatly making it up. Even the 'record' of the GF's call had Martin asking a question first, to Zipperhead. Even if we put that at the same level of evidence as the 911 call(which I dont) it actually shows to me....Martin confronting Zipperhead, not the other way around.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Transcripts dont tell half the story. Listen to the actual call. You can hear when he opens the car door. You can hear heavy breathing when he is running to see where Martin went...to answer the non emergency operators question.

You just made the case that SYG does not apply. The 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow Martin. Zimmerman CREATED the emergency.

And you have no evidence that it was Zipperhead that confronted MArtin. You are flatly making it up. Even the 'record' of the GF's call had Martin asking a question first, to Zipperhead. Even if we put that at the same level of evidence as the 911 call(which I dont) it actually shows to me....Martin confronting Zipperhead, not the other way around.

You're making shit up here. What the fuck is your agenda? This sounds like some NRA moonbat bullshit to me. And I'm a life NRA member myslef, so no one here is any more pro Second Amendment than me - How you can defend this asshat Zimmerman is beyond all reason.

The fact that Zimmerman got out of his car and chased Martin removes his protection under SYG. So what if Martin turned around and confronted some asshole that was chasing him? For all Martin knew, this asshole Zimmerman was going to mug him. Zimmerman could have kept his fat ass in his car and waited for police - but he chose to escalate the situation.

What time was the girlfriends call? Before or after Zimmermans 911 call? You are reaching for anything to defend Zimmerman. WTF is up with that? You just like playing devils advocate or is there some latent bigotry influencing your opinion?

 

[Jaybird]

You just made the case that SYG does not apply. The 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow Martin. Zimmerman CREATED the emergency.

Actually. As I have said before. The actual part of SYG that some people are complaining about now...is not applicable to this case at all. Only standard plain old vanilla self defense law that exists in nearly every state in this country.

But, to answer the lie that you are trying to put into my mouth(which honestly, I do not like the way you are attacking me in this thread) The operator told Zipperhead not to follow MArtin after Zipperhead was already out of his car, and following. But....I dispute the term 'following' He was looking to see where someone ran, to answer the non-emergency operators question.

Please stop trying to put your words into my mouth. K? Ty.

You're making shit up here. What the fuck is your agenda? This sounds like some NRA moonbat bullshit to me. And I'm a life NRA member myslef, so no one here is any more pro Second Amendment than me - How you can defend this asshat Zimmerman is beyond all reason.

More attacks on my character. But. Again. I am not 'defending' anyone. *shrug*

If you do not like the facts that I am presenting, I am sorry, but that is all I am doing. I am not defending anyone.

The fact that Zimmerman got out of his car and chased Martin removes his protection under SYG. So what if Martin turned around and confronted some asshole that was chasing him? For all Martin knew, this asshole Zimmerman was going to mug him. Zimmerman could have kept his fat ass in his car and waited for police - but he chose to escalate the situation.

Again. He was not chasing. He was searching to see where someone ran. There is a difference. I know many people have gotten so freaking wrapped up in this case based on the blatant media bias, that they can not see the other side. But it is pretty clear according to the call that he only got out of his car to see where Martin was running to answer the operators question. And agreed to not 'follow' anymore when given the advice to not anymore.(you can hear when Zipperhead is moving 'with speed' and when he is not, which is the benefit of actually listening to the call, instead of reading a transcript) Not that he really needed to agree to the operators advice though. If he did not stop 'following' it would still not be a crime.

I do not dispute that Zipperhead could(and should) have stayed in the car. But that does not mean getting out of his car is a criminal act. As far as him....giving chase. Again. Looking to see where someone ran, is different that chasing someone. It may not be in your mind, or even in MArtins mind at the time. As I have already said before, if I was in Martins shoes, I would be pissed too if I thought someone was 'watching' me, or 'following' me. But that doesnt give me the right to attack that person(if that is what occurred here)

The question is, and will be....who actually attacked whom first. You do not know the answer to that question.

What time was the girlfriends call? Before or after Zimmermans 911 call? You are reaching for anything to defend Zimmerman. WTF is up with that? You just like playing devils advocate or is there some latent bigotry influencing your opinion?

I have no idea what time the call was made. We have not been privileged with that information from Martin's attorneys as far as I know.

My only point though with bringing it up, was that I assumed you would. There is no evidence anywhere that Zipperhead confronted Martin. None. Zero. Zilch. That is my point. You and the media saying he did confront Martin first is just throwing fuel on the fire. Zipperhead may have. But I tend to believe he did not. But that is only my opinion based on the things I have stated in this thread. You can disagree if you want though. *shrug*

And once again. Please refrain from personal attacks on my character. I am trying to be civil with you. I would expect some courtesy back. TY.

 

[Johnfromokc]

And once again. Please refrain from personal attacks on my character. I am trying to be civil with you. I would expect some courtesy back. TY.

I'm tring to figure out WTF your deal is - your "logic" defies common sense, and contrary to your claim, you have presented zero facts - only speculation. In a civil society, one citizen does not pursue another citizen with a gun. And I would like to know what kind of character it takes to defend the wrongful death of an American citizen who was simply walking home. If you think that's a personal attack - tough shit - get over it.

Zimmerman is a moron and deserves every bit of the mental stress he created. And if you insist on defending this fucktard and then whine about someone questioning your character, oh well. It is a sad state of affairs that we have descended into this wild west mentality where people attemt to justify the unjustifiable.

Oh - BTW - the GF stated that she told Trayvon to run and that Trayvon stated "Why you following me?" and then she heard a scuffle and the line went dead. That does not back up the theory of Martin attacking Zimmerman.

But of course, that evidence would mean jack shit to you, just like the 911 operator telling Zimmerman not to follow Martin.

 

[Alien Allen]

Is there any evidence that Zimmerman had brandished his gun when he confronted the kid? Did the kid mention a gun when he was on the phone with the girlfriend?

How big was this kid? The little I have followed this the pictures show a kid that appears to look young and small. More like a 12-13 year old.

Did the kid notice the guy while in the car? Why was the kid acting suspicious?

Is this a neighborhood that has a high crime rate or had a rash of robberies?

I heard one pundit comment the kid was shot in the back. Is that true?

I would be curious about the answers to the above.

I am not sure what to make of this case as the press first made it appear that it was racial. As in some crazy white guy killed the kid. Then they are stretching to try to make some of his words audible that no way in hell are.

There is no doubt Zimmerman escalated this an has responsibility for doing so. That does not mean he was not defending himself. Whether that means he is innocent or guilty of murder or manslaughter a jury can decide. I expect in the end it will be clearer what transpired.