Trayvon Martin- Tragedy

[Zorak]

This thread boggles my mind. I already can't believe the inequality and inaction of the police force in question. But the views of some American's on here is startling to me. It shows a real cultural and ethical divide.

 

[Jaybird]

Ultimately, since he was armed, he HAS to hold himself to a higher standard per his own actions and how his actions may affect others and their actions towards him. Carrying a gun may be a right, but it's also a huge responsibility.

That said, I've always held to the notion that as a civilian, if you're armed, you need to ensure that you've exhausted all resources first for a retreat BEFORE you take offensive action (given of course you actually have the time to determine if you have options). Florida's law on that subject scares me.

I dont disagree with you at all, that those of us that do carry need to ensure we take the responsibility seriously.

But, there really isn't any evidence that this guy did not. Now, I am not saying....that I agree with his actions, nor do I personally think he is the sharpest tool in the toolshed. Other places, I have affectionately called him...Meathead. But none of that matters in a trial, or in regards to ones guilt, nor in the actual facts.

A judge or a jury will determine what actually is fact from fantasy in this case. Just because Mr. Meathead is claiming self-defense does not necessarily mean he meets the level required under law. But he very well may based on whatever actual facts the Grand Jury presents. IDK. I can spout off all the facts that I can find on this case myself, but that still doesn't mean I am saying the guy is 'not guilty' I also know that isnt my job. Nor is it my job to fuel a media firestorm that can ultimately cause more harm than good if the actual facts do not match up with what the media portrays. And that is my biggest concern. The media is building this international bonfire of outrage, over a very....iffy...case, and are portraying it to be far less gray than it actually is. If this State thought the Casey Anthony outrage was bad....they aint seen nothing yet if this case goes the way it very well could. And I blame the media for that.


Oh...and on the Stand Your Ground Law? It really isnt the problem, no matter what MSNBC tells the world.

This is the SYG provision of FL law.

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

If the shooting scenario in the situation of this case is correct, the self defense shooting occurred when Zimmerman was on his back, and had Martin on top of him. He could not retreat if that part of the story is factual, which is backed up by eye-witness testimony. Thus....SYG is not applicable. Just normal self-defense law. All the garbage about SYG is just more media agenda pushing.

Now....there is a 'problem' for some though. That Zimmerman is not already locked up. And I have no problem with the fact he isnt behind bars right now. If the police can not prove there is enough evidence to immediately charge someone with a crime....ANY CRIME...they need to release the person. And continue their investigation. And either let the State Prosecutor or a Grand Jury decide if there is enough evidence to bring charges up against someone. Just because 1million people sign a petition on moveon.org and a bunch of people stand on a lawn and protest does not mean someone should be arrested and charged with a crime. THAT, would be mob justice. THAT, would be a witch hunt. THAT, would be a miscarriage of justice. Let the process do its job.

Anyone screaming....THROW HIM IN JAIL!!!, is actually the real vigilante here. We have a presumption of innocence until proven guilty in this country, and I think the one of the reasons we have that presumption of innocence, is for occasions just like this.

 

[Jaybird]

This thread boggles my mind. I already can't believe the inequality and inaction of the police force in question. But the views of some American's on here is startling to me. It shows a real cultural and ethical divide.

Yup. And here comes the American bashing from the other side of the pond. *rollseyes*

Ill tell you, I just dont understand the views of some Europeans. Well actually, most Europeans that I have interacted with when it comes to matters like this. Their views boggle my mind. I know....it is really a terrible world all of us Americans live in....where we actually want a presumption of innocence.

See. In Europe. If you use a gun in self defense, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent. It is because you all despise guns. In this country, one is still innocent until proven otherwise. Just because someone uses a gun doesnt mean he is automatically guilty of a crime. But try explaining that to a European, and they will just yell back..."Its because of your gun culture" *rollseyes*

 

[Darrell]

Yup. And here comes the American bashing from the other side of the pond. *rollseyes*

Ill tell you, I just dont understand the views of some Europeans. Well actually, most Europeans that I have interacted with when it comes to matters like this. Their views boggle my mind. I know....it is really a terrible world all of us Americans live in....where we actually want a presumption of innocence.

See. In Europe. If you use a gun in self defense, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent. It is because you all despise guns. In this country, one is still innocent until proven otherwise. Just because someone uses a gun doesnt mean he is automatically guilty of a crime. But try explaining that to a European, and they will just yell back..."Its because of your gun culture" *rollseyes*

Just to interject for a moment. Zorak is from England.

Carry on.

 

[Panacea]

Why is it a bad analogy? It is simply saying that a 911 operator will tell you to not get involved and put yourself in danger....no matter what the situation. It doesn't make not 'obeying their advice' a criminal action.

And I am not sticking up for Zimmerman. I am only stating facts, and not blindly repeating opinions, hearsay, and fabrications that the media fed me.

It's a bad analogy because it's equating Martin's actions (which you have no clue of) with that of a rapist. Loaded words, if you're so unbiased you'd know better, right?

How do YOU know facts about this case? None of us do, we weren't there, as I said before. We only have opinions given to us by the media. Your opinion is just different than the people you're calling out. Opinion all the same.

 

[Jaybird]

England has gone the way of Europe mostly in regards to self defense, especially when it comes to guns.

IE...all of our problems are because we love guns. We should just call the police ALWAYS, and never actually protect ourselves with a gun. I know, that is a blanket statement, and is not taking into account the actual gray areas revolving around this particular case. But at least I acknowledge that there are gray areas.

 

[Panacea]

It's not my opinion the gun was the problem in this case, it seems the problem may have been Zimmerman's frame of mind. May.

 

[Jaybird]

It's a bad analogy because it's equating Martin's actions (which you have no clue of) with that of a rapist. Loaded words, if you're so unbiased you'd know better, right?

How do YOU know facts about this case? None of us do, we weren't there, as I said before. We only have opinions given to us by the media. Your opinion is just different than the people you're calling out. Opinion all the same.

Go back and look at my 'facts'. The only time I injected any real 'opinion' was in regards to the interpretation of the 911 call. Anything else will be actual facts put forward in a court of law. Actual EYE witness testimony always trumps what one person heard from within her home and didn't actually see, and was reported to the police that day, in any court of law as far as I know.

I maybe presenting 'another' side of the story, but you can be sure that side will be given in a court of law. And will be the justification if there actually is a trial beyond the grand jury. Do you not want to hear these parts? Shall I shut up, and let everyone be ignorant of them? And thus be shocked when the court case doesn't go as some would like to see?

 

[Jaybird]

It's not my opinion the gun was the problem in this case, it seems the problem may have been Zimmerman's frame of mind. May.

That maybe. Anything is possible I guess. There hasn't been too much discussion on his 'frame of mind' though. But what frame of mind would that be in your opinion? If you say racist, there just isn't real proof for that. Frustrated with a bunch of crime in his neighborhood? Possibly. Again, that would need to be proven though. And if their is no evidence to support it, than the police can't just make it up on the fly to arrest him that day. If the Grand Jury comes up with something though, than that will be presented at a future trial I am sure. I do have faith in the police department, the FBI, the DOJ, and FDLE to come up with something, if evidence supports it.

 

[Panacea]

I don't accept that a random forum poster from Sunny Places unknown is the knowledge center for pure facts in the death of Trayvon Martin. That's my only issue with your carrying on, not necessarily the content.

 

[Darrell]

I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by six. Survival is the highest law.

If Zimmerman confronted this kid, and the kid attacked him (as the eye witness suggests) then unfortunately the kid paid the piper.

An assault is an assault, is an assault. Regardless of the age of the person doing to assaulting.

It's a tragedy that the kid had to die for his actions, however, when we make adult decisions like getting confrontational with individuals, we have to be prepared to accept adult consequences.

 

[Panacea]

That maybe. Anything is possible I guess. There hasn't been too much discussion on his 'frame of mind' though. But what frame of mind would that be in your opinion? If you say racist, there just isn't real proof for that. Frustrated with a bunch of crime in his neighborhood? Possibly. Again, that would need to be proven though. And if their is no evidence to support it, than the police can't just make it up on the fly to arrest him that day. If the Grand Jury comes up with something though, than that will be presented at a future trial I am sure. I do have faith in the police department, the FBI, the DOJ, and FDLE to come up with something, if evidence supports it.

The opinion I can form from the info I've been given is that he seemed pretty hyped up about stopping a crime, maybe to the degree he didn't realize he was making a mountain out of a mole hill, if indeed Martin didn't do anything wrong.

 

[Joe the meek]

If the shooting scenario in the situation of this case is correct, the self defense shooting occurred when Zimmerman was on his back, and had Martin on top of him. He could not retreat if that part of the story is factual, which is backed up by eye-witness testimony. Thus....SYG is not applicable. Just normal self-defense law. All the garbage about SYG is just more media agenda pushing.

It depends if Martin was afraid for his own life and tried to defend himself by using force against someone who he thought was someone attacking him.

If I carry a firearm and give someone the finger, and that someone comes after me and has me on the ground punching the living crap out of me, and my only defense is shooting the person with my gun, it could be argued that my actions (giving the person the finger) is what triggered the altercation and I can be held responsible for my actions using my firearm. That is in North Carolina, not Florida.

Kicker is, if the other guy is dead and there are no witnesses to the events that led to the altercation, well, as they say, dead men tell no tales.

 

[Jaybird]

I don't accept that a random forum poster from Sunny Places unknown is the knowledge center for pure facts in the death of Trayvon Martin. That's my only issue with your carrying on, not necessarily the content.

What facts that I have presented do you dispute?

Who was on top at the time of the shooting? Who was crying for help? I provided my sources.

That he only got out of the car when asked "Which way"? Listen to the call. You can hear the bells chime yourself.

That he says 'okay'. Again. Listen to the call.

What is on record of who instigated the confrontation? Look at the city managers report. That is what is entered into evidence right now, unless the city manager flat out lied on public record.

The heights of the individuals? It is out there. It was reported I think in the Sun Sentinel before this thing became even Statewide news.

The physical evidence of the injury and the wet shirt? Again, look tot he city managers report. But those are fairly widely known facts if one looks. Although they are rarely talked about by the national media.

Some other things...yes, they maybe opinion....but they are supported by evidence.

And as far as living in 'Sunny Places'...sure, I live in Florida. If you couldnt tell by my posts, I apologize. Do I live in Sanford? No. Do I live close enough though that this has been a news story long before it went national and took on a life of its own? Yes. Do I have any other real connection to the case besides being a concerned citizen of my State? No.

But, I am not asking you to take MY word for anything. I am just presenting other evidence that has been on the record for quite sometime, but just doesnt get as much airplay on the National....and certainly not, the international media outlets.

 

[Jaybird]

It depends if Martin was afraid for his own life and tried to defend himself by using force against someone who he thought was someone attacking him.

If I carry a firearm and give someone the finger, and that someone comes after me and has me on the ground punching the living crap out of me, and my only defense is shooting the person with my gun, it could be argued that my actions (giving the person the finger) is what triggered the altercation and I can be held responsible for my actions using my firearm. That is in North Carolina, not Florida.

Kicker is, if the other guy is dead and there are no witnesses to the events that led to the altercation, well, as they say, dead men tell no tales.

I dont know about that even in NC. Your rights end where my nose begins as the old saying goes. I can say whatever the heck I want to you, but the moment you assault me, or even lay a hand on me, than you would be the one committing assault.

But, it would be an interesting constitutional matter none the less.

Now, in this exact matter, one would have to prove that Zimmerman followed Martin in a threatening manner to even have a shot of anything. We dont know that. He may have. He may not have. Would I want to be 'followed'? Probably not. But that wouldn't give me the right to confront the person and punch him in the face. If I told him to fuck off though, then I am okay. If he laid a hand on me after I told him to fuck off, then he would be in the wrong. That is where the grey area in this case comes in, imo.

If I was walking down the street, and I thought someone was following me, what are my options? I cant turn and shoot. I can either walk away, call the police, or stand my ground. If the person does something like....tackle me, or punch me, then, I am now being assaulted, and can react in a necessary manner. If the person simply says to me....what are you doing here? I can tell him to go fuck off all I want or walk away, or answer his question. He cant shoot me either, nor lay a hand on me. The first person that does....is guilty of assault imo. Although, again, it would all be needed to be worked out in court. Not a bunch of people standing on a lawn yelling for me to be put into jail, nor signing an internet petition.

 

[Joe the meek]

In NC you cannot escalate the situation by your actions if you are carrying a sidearm and you are not on your property.

The fact is if no one is around and there is only you and an armed man, there is nothing from stopping that armed man from killing you. He just better have a good story and stick to it.

 

[alice in chains]

Any civilian who carries a sidearm and goes after a person who is NOT immediately threatening them is a FUCKING idiot cop wanna be. The man with the gun initiated the chain of events which lead to this tragedy.

Listen, I don't care if the teen was beating the living shit out the cop wanna be. THAT IS WHY WHEN YOU CARRY A SIDEARM AND ARE NOT A LEO, YOU DO NOT ADVANCE ON SOMEONE WHO YOU MIGHT THINK IS A THREAT!

Do you think you can understand that?

do you think you can understand that people have their own interpretations of what happens in the world?

 

[Jaybird]

In NC you cannot escalate the situation by your actions if you are carrying a sidearm and you are not on your property.

The fact is if no one is around and there is only you and an armed man, there is nothing from stopping that armed man from killing you. He just better have a good story and stick to it.

So, in NC a person has different rights to self defense if they are carrying a gun versus not carrying a gun? Is that what you are saying?

 

[satinbutterfly]

I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by six. Survival is the highest law.

If Zimmerman confronted this kid, and the kid attacked him (as the eye witness suggests) then unfortunately the kid paid the piper.

An assault is an assault, is an assault. Regardless of the age of the person doing to assaulting.

It's a tragedy that the kid had to die for his actions, however, when we make adult decisions like getting confrontational with individuals, we have to be prepared to accept adult consequences.

This. :thumbup

What facts that I have presented do you dispute?

Who was on top at the time of the shooting? Who was crying for help? I provided my sources.

That he only got out of the car when asked "Which way"? Listen to the call. You can hear the bells chime yourself.

That he says 'okay'. Again. Listen to the call.

What is on record of who instigated the confrontation? Look at the city managers report. That is what is entered into evidence right now, unless the city manager flat out lied on public record.

The heights of the individuals? It is out there. It was reported I think in the Sun Sentinel before this thing became even Statewide news.

The physical evidence of the injury and the wet shirt? Again, look tot he city managers report. But those are fairly widely known facts if one looks. Although they are rarely talked about by the national media.

Some other things...yes, they maybe opinion....but they are supported by evidence.

And as far as living in 'Sunny Places'...sure, I live in Florida. If you couldnt tell by my posts, I apologize. Do I live in Sanford? No. Do I live close enough though that this has been a news story long before it went national and took on a life of its own? Yes. Do I have any other real connection to the case besides being a concerned citizen of my State? No.

But, I am not asking you to take MY word for anything. I am just presenting other evidence that has been on the record for quite sometime, but just doesnt get as much airplay on the National....and certainly not, the international media outlets.

Personally I appreciate a review of the facts vs. the skewed view of the media. Thank you.

 

[hart]

Oh didn't you hear, it wasn't the gun at all, according to Geraldo, it all was due to Trayvon wearing a Hoodie........:wtf: