Trayvon Martin- Tragedy

[Joe the meek]

So, in NC a person has different rights to self defense if they are carrying a gun versus not carrying a gun? Is that what you are saying?

What I'm saying is that if I'm carrying a sidearm, I can't contribute to the escalation of a situation, and if I do and I have to use deadly force with my sidearm to protect myself, I can be held accountable for my actions that contributed to the use of deadly force.

Now, on your own property, that's a different story.

For myself, given the history of meathead, and being that he was carrying and the fact that he came into contact with this youth, I find in very unlikely that meatheads actions didn't contribute to the escalation of the situation.

 

[Joe the meek]

do you think you can understand that people have their own interpretations of what happens in the world?

Happens EVERY day. Like I said, dead men tell no tales.

 

[Zorak]

Yup. And here comes the American bashing from the other side of the pond. *rollseyes*

Ill tell you, I just dont understand the views of some Europeans. Well actually, most Europeans that I have interacted with when it comes to matters like this. Their views boggle my mind. I know....it is really a terrible world all of us Americans live in....where we actually want a presumption of innocence.

See. In Europe. If you use a gun in self defense, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent. It is because you all despise guns. In this country, one is still innocent until proven otherwise. Just because someone uses a gun doesnt mean he is automatically guilty of a crime. But try explaining that to a European, and they will just yell back..."Its because of your gun culture" *rollseyes*

Didn't mention anything about guns. You lot can do what you want with your precious firearms

I meant more the fact that Zimmerman tailed, and eventually killed an unarmed man. Yet is still not under arrest. That's the cultural and ethical divide I was referring to. I can understand your sensitivity to criticism of gun laws, however. But that's not what I was getting at.

 

[rback33]

Didn't mention anything about guns. You lot can do what you want with your precious firearms

I meant more the fact that Zimmerman tailed, and eventually killed an unarmed man. Yet is still not under arrest. That's the cultural and ethical divide I was referring to. I can understand your sensitivity to criticism of gun laws, however. But that's not what I was getting at.

But you left out all the rest of what happened... which makes no sense.... had he killed him with his hands he would still not be under arrest... I would not call this a divide... the laws are just simple, innocent until proven guilty, the guy claims self defense... I think he is a freak and a meathead and has issues, but he still has rights under the law.

 

[Johnfromokc]

This thread boggles my mind. I already can't believe the inequality and inaction of the police force in question. But the views of some American's on here is startling to me. It shows a real cultural and ethical divide.

It is EXTREMELY startling Zroak - and I say this as an American and an NRA LIFE MEMBER.

I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by six. Survival is the highest law.

My dad - a WW-2 Army vet - told me those exact words when I joined the USMC. He told me if it came down to it in COMBAT, to kill whomever I had to kill to stay alive. He said it was much preferable to face a court marshall than to be body-bagged. Combat - not voluntary vigilantism by an over-eager neighborhood watch cop wannabee.

We really need some societal reflection when this is stated in the context of approaching and killing an UNARMED individual walking down a sidewalk after you have been told by a 911 operator not to do that.

If Zimmerman confronted this kid, and the kid attacked him (as the eye witness suggests) then unfortunately the kid paid the piper.

I disagree. What if the kid felt threatened by Zimmerman and defended himself? And now Zimmerman, getting his punk ass kicked, then shoots the unarmed victim?

An assault is an assault, is an assault. Regardless of the age of the person doing to assaulting.

I agree, and if Zimmerman put his hands on this kid, and the kid defended himself, and then Zimmerman shot the kid, Zimmerman needs to go to prision and get his asshole enlarged by his new prison fan club and reflect on how that kids parents are feeling.

It's a tragedy that the kid had to die for his actions, however, when we make adult decisions like getting confrontational with individuals, we have to be prepared to accept adult consequences.

What actions did this kid take other than walking home from the store with a soft drink and a bag of candy?

 

[Zorak]

But you left out all the rest of what happened... which makes no sense.... had he killed him with his hands he would still not be under arrest... I would not call this a divide... the laws are just simple, innocent until proven guilty, the guy claims self defense... I think he is a freak and a meathead and has issues, but he still has rights under the law.

A court would be the place to decide on guilt. The police are to arrest people who commit crime, of which killing, is one. Now you can make exception in America, I'm well aware, for crimes committed against a person who trespass onto your property; but, as the 911 tapes confirm, this Zimmerman tailed Martin for a period before killing him. The objective point being he went looking ​for trouble.

 

[rback33]

I disagree. What if the kid felt threatened by Zimmerman and defended himself? And now Zimmerman, getting his punk ass kicked, then shoots the unarmed victim?



I agree, and if Zimmerman put his hands on this kid, and the kid defended himself, and then Zimmerman shot the kid, Zimmerman needs to go to prision and get his asshole enlarged by his new prison fan club and reflect on how that kids parents are feeling.

See, my gut feeling is that the kid felt threatened but Zimmerman following him. I have had this happen to me before. It's creepy when someone follows you. I have been there.

 

[rback33]

A court would be the place to decide on guilt. The police are to arrest people who commit crime, of which killing, is one. Now you can make exception in America, I'm well aware, for crimes committed against a person who trespass onto your property; but, as the 911 tapes confirm, this Zimmerman tailed Martin for a period before killing him. The objective point being he went looking ​for trouble.

Tailing him is not a crime. Neither is self defense. There has to be probable cause to arrest him. That's what grand juries are for. I agree Zimmerman went looking for trouble. But they have to investigate to determine if a crime has been committed. Do you not have the right to defend yourself over there?

 

[Johnfromokc]

A court would be the place to decide on guilt. The police are to arrest people who commit crime, of which killing, is one. Now you can make exception in America, I'm well aware, for crimes committed against a person who trespass onto your property; but, as the 911 tapes confirm, this Zimmerman tailed Martin for a period before killing him. The objective point being he went looking ​for trouble.

:homo: This.

Zimmerman is a fucking asshat moron that has no business with a weapon. He had the CHOICE to remain at a safe distance and OBSERVE. He made a bad decision to follow this kid who was not doing anything that Zimmerman should have interfered with. The kid was walking down the fucking sidewalk.

Zimmerman should not only be charged with muder and tried in court - he should be charged with civil rights violations as well. An unlawful death has occurred here. Manslaughter at a minimum.

When the criminal trial is over, then the parents of Trayvon should sue Zimmerman for every penny he has and will ever make for the rest of his mornic life.

 

[rback33]

:homo: This.

Zimmerman is a fucking asshat moron that has no business with a weapon. He had the CHOICE to remain at a safe distance and OBSERVE. He made a bad decision to follow this kid who was not doing anything that Zimmerman should have interfered with. The kid was walking down the fucking sidewalk.

Zimmerman should not only be charged with muder and tried in court - he should be charged with civil rights violations as well. An unlawful death has occurred here. Manslaughter at a minimum.

When the criminal trial is over, then the parents of Trayvon should sue Zimmerman for every penny he has and will ever make for the rest of his mornic life.

I agree with all of this. Unfortunately, as our laws are written, it can't happen as fast as we want it to.

 

[hart]

:homo: This.

Zimmerman is a fucking asshat moron that has no business with a weapon. He had the CHOICE to remain at a safe distance and OBSERVE. He made a bad decision to follow this kid who was not doing anything that Zimmerman should have interfered with. The kid was walking down the fucking sidewalk.

Zimmerman should not only be charged with muder and tried in court - he should be charged with civil rights violations as well. An unlawful death has occurred here. Manslaughter at a minimum.

When the criminal trial is over, then the parents of Trayvon should sue Zimmerman for every penny he has and will ever make for the rest of his mornic life.

I happen to like this:homo:

 

[Zorak]

Tailing him is not a crime. Neither is self defense. There has to be probable cause to arrest him. That's what grand juries are for. I agree Zimmerman went looking for trouble. But they have to investigate to determine if a crime has been committed. Do you not have the right to defend yourself over there?

I think our definitions of probable cause leave quite a chasm between them.

I would certainly like to imagine that a man who admits to tailing and killing someone, (irregardless of weapon used, just so we can keep off the gun topic) would be placed in custody straight away. After 24 hours, he would undoubtedly be charged with murder and would await trial. He may or may not have to remain in custody. Plea's of self defence, or etc, would be a matter for the courts and to be judged upon by a group of the defendant's peers.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Tailing him is not a crime. Neither is self defense. There has to be probable cause to arrest him. That's what grand juries are for. I agree Zimmerman went looking for trouble. But they have to investigate to determine if a crime has been committed. Do you not have the right to defend yourself over there?

Citizens have the RIGHT to walk down the sidewalk unmolested by some fucktard who "thinks" you "look suspicious".

WTF is self defense about following and confronting someone who may be in fear of their own life by the creepy jerkwad that is following them?

Now that I think about it, add stalking to the list of charges Zimmerman should be tried for.

Zimmerman is a prime example of an irresponsible gun owner that is putting other gun owners under scrutiny. Maybe this scrutiny is reasonabe due to the sheer number of idiots like Zimmerman out there. The Florida law needs to be revisited and perhaps modified. This will be a precident setting case.

 

[Joe the meek]

Zimmerman should not only be charged with muder and tried in court - he should be charged with civil rights violations as well. An unlawful death has occurred here. Manslaughter at a minimum.

Given the set of circumstances and the outcry, I have no doubt that the Feds will get him for something.

If this yahoo had ANY association with any type of community watch program, I'd be worried money wise for the community involved.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I agree with all of this. Unfortunately, as our laws are written, it can't happen as fast as we want it to.

What is at issue Jeremy, is the fact that Zimmerman was not even considered for arrest and serious investigation by the Sanford police. The incompetence exhibited by the police in this case is staggering. Everyone understands that the wheels of justice grind slowly - but until the shit hit the fan, Zimmerman was about to get away with a wrongful death.

The Sanford police are the primary cause of this national and JUSTIFIED outrage.

 

[Jaybird]

What I'm saying is that if I'm carrying a sidearm, I can't contribute to the escalation of a situation, and if I do and I have to use deadly force with my sidearm to protect myself, I can be held accountable for my actions that contributed to the use of deadly force.

Now, on your own property, that's a different story.

For myself, given the history of meathead, and being that he was carrying and the fact that he came into contact with this youth, I find in very unlikely that meatheads actions didn't contribute to the escalation of the situation.

So, if you did all of that, without a firearm, and ended up killing someone with one clean punch to the temple, would you be afforded any kind of protection under self defense laws?

Or, is it only when one has a gun on, that they cant 'escalate a situation'?

 

[Jaybird]

Didn't mention anything about guns. You lot can do what you want with your precious firearms

I meant more the fact that Zimmerman tailed, and eventually killed an unarmed man. Yet is still not under arrest. That's the cultural and ethical divide I was referring to. I can understand your sensitivity to criticism of gun laws, however. But that's not what I was getting at.

Sorry. But in our criminal justice system(I dont know about yours) the police have 24 hours I believe to hold someone or charge them with a crime. If they can not charge them after 24 hours, they go free until charges are filed.

The actual facts of this case do not warrant an immediate set of charges. Heck, they still do not know what to charge him with, if anything.

There is a process in this country, and there is a presumption of innocence. He can not be held until AT LEAST charges are filed.

Anything else would be a violation of HIS rights, and a major issue for a lawsuit.

Let the Grand Jury decide if charges and what those charges would be can even be filed. And that, is going to take time. Probably months. Do you want it rushed? I dont.

 

[Jaybird]

Given the set of circumstances and the outcry, I have no doubt that the Feds will get him for something.

If this yahoo had ANY association with any type of community watch program, I'd be worried money wise for the community involved.

The feds have no jurisdiction to charge Zimmerman with anything other than a civil rights case. That......would be extremely difficult, to say the least. I dont care what MSNBC is saying.

 

[CityGirl]

What is at issue Jeremy, is the fact that Zimmerman was not even considered for arrest and serious investigation by the Sanford police. The incompetence exhibited by the police in this case is staggering. Everyone understands that the wheels of justice grind slowly - but until the shit hit the fan, Zimmerman was about to get away with a wrongful death.

The Sanford police are the primary cause of this national and JUSTIFIED outrage.

And that is one of the primary reasons this case is causing so much outrage. I've read numerous comments on this subject from people who are trying to compare a recent hate crime in Kansas City where a Caucasian teen was set on fire by 2 African American teens. I guess they wonder where is the outrage and it is an outrageous act but police are investigating that assault. No arrests have been made because no suspects have been identified (I didn't find info more recent thatn 3/6/12)

Anyway, I did read where former Sen. Durell Peaden one of the authors of the Florida Stand Your Ground Law has said:
""He [Zimmerman] has no protection under my law."
"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

Rep. Dennis Baxley, Peaden's co-sponsor in the Florida House, agrees with his former colleague, telling the newspaper that the law does not license neighborhood watch or others who feel "like they have the authority to pursue and confront people. That is aggravating an incident right there."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...bably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/

Rep. Dennis Baxley wrote, “This law does not seem to be applicable to the tragedy that happened in Sanford,” in an opinion piece for Fox News.

“There is nothing . . . in Florida statutes that authenticates or provides for the opportunity to pursue and confront individuals, it simply protects those who would be potential victims by allowing for force to be used in self-defense.”

Baxley said that he supports moves to have a grand jury determine whether Zimmerman should be charged. “Mr. Zimmerman's unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine. There is no protection in the ‘Stand Your Ground’ law for anyone who pursues and confronts people.”

Read more on Newsmax.com: Stand Your Ground Author: Trayvon Martin Case Not Covered by Law
Important: Do You Support Pres. Obama's Re-Election? Vote Here Now!

 

[Jaybird]

What is at issue Jeremy, is the fact that Zimmerman was not even considered for arrest and serious investigation by the Sanford police. The incompetence exhibited by the police in this case is staggering. Everyone understands that the wheels of justice grind slowly - but until the shit hit the fan, Zimmerman was about to get away with a wrongful death.

The Sanford police are the primary cause of this national and JUSTIFIED outrage.

And that is another disturbing thing that has been skewed by the mainstream media.

They make the whole police force out to be a bunch of racist inept bastards.

Its like they are saying, when the cops got there, they were like..."Oh, one more dead black kid. Bag him and tag him. Oh, you...Zipperhead, yeah, it was self defense. Just remember that, and all will be okay"

Come on Folks. This isn't 1950 Mississippi with a bunch of KKK guys running around.

And Zipperhead was not about to get away with anything. He would have gone in front of a judge, even if he claimed self-defense under SYG. The FL supreme court has already ruled that any SYG claims have to be decided ultimately by a judge, in at least a pre-trial hearing. So any claims that he was gonna walk free with no further action are just false and another example of how the national media has twisted this thing to push an agenda.