Science Saved My Soul.....................

[Minor Axis]

No one else in the world has seen or experienced faith? Really? I beg to differ honey, I think you better do a little more research on the subject. I've seen it, I've felt it and I've experienced it.....and there are millions of others who have as well.

You and millions have seen, felt, and experienced something. You say you know exactly what it is, others don't know or don't find anything that can specifically be identified.. So where are we in the "proof" department? No where. I realize you don't care if you can prove it or not. For those on the fence, the lack of *fact/proof should be factored into their considerations when it comes to absolutes. Faith is mysterious, individual. One of the big problems with religion is that the leaders more times than not try to sell the commercial version of faith, try to tell you what your individual faith should be, and then they get into really deep water when they tell you what God thinks and expects you to do. The real problem is that when faith is commercialized, it is sold as defacto truth just because a large number of people have bought into the details of the specific religion.

* I'm speaking of proof of God, not fact that you believe in your God.

Yes, but I was explaining why, imo, having faith in the love say, your husband has for you, is different to having faith in love that you think God has for you. Firstly, you have to have faith in the fact that God exists because (as i was trying to say before, nobody has ever even seen him/her/it) and then you have to have faith in the fact that he loves you as well. That's why i think the two are different.

Great point. In the first example your dealing with a real person who has told you specifically his/her feelings. The only faith required is believing they are telling the truth. In the latter, the whole thing is just what you imagine. An immense difference.

Anybody read Horton Hears a Who and then contemplate this little blue dot we inhabit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

This is why I believe there is something bigger than us...I just don't think it is a personal being with an interest in our lives and our activities/behaviors. I believe that religions and in particular the Abrahamic religions have been perpetuated as a means to control the population.

An interesting book Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 Years- by Philip Jenkins
Though not the theme of the book, it is astounding to learn of the Christian on Christian violence of the first few hundred years leading up to the Council of Nicea (many councils convened in the between time). My upbringing was that the early christians were persecuted by the non believers and some of that is true but my God! the things they did to one another while they fought over what would be the established belief was just as bad...worse considering they were supposed to be on the same side. What is believed today has been censored over centuries...much has been added and much taken away.

I used to defend that since God is purportedly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent that the essence of what he wished to convey through the scriptures had remained intact in spite of human tampering. That is until I determined that the whole of it is nothing but human tampering...tampering in our emotion and our need to understand things we just can't know. As a pastor once told my husband...he didn't know for sure that Christianity was the truth but he had determined it was not a bad way to live and so at the end, he wouldn't lose anything if it turned out to be false. Sounds like a fire insurance policy to me.

He was being honest and was a "hedge-your-bets" Christian or was telling your husband what he thought would appeal to him. I think the important thing here is that the pastor is just a man with no better connection to God than any other human who wants to believe or wants to evaluate this existence.

Good video.

 

[Alien Allen]

She didn't say that to you. But whatever, there is no 'discussing' with you.

She said we all do.

So Peter was on sound footing on this one.

 

[Aries]

She said we all do.

So Peter was on sound footing on this one.

Sound footing? I believe she was generalizing what Peter said about incest, genocide etc...meaning that we are all sinners. Which we are.

 

[Alien Allen]

Sound footing? I believe she was generalizing what Peter said about incest, genocide etc...meaning that we are all sinners. Which we are.

whatever


if that was what she meant she did a piss poor job of expressing that

 

[BornReady]

"And Jesus said unto them ... , "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to younder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you."
Romans 1:17

Jesus may have said that but it isn't true. Having faith something is going to happen will get you no where. Hard work and persistence will. If you want to move a mountain then buy a bulldozer.

I believe she was generalizing what Peter said about incest, genocide etc...meaning that we are all sinners. Which we are.

I suppose you should explain what you mean by sinner before I disagree. But I don't think of myself as a sinner. I'm a good person.

 

[griz bear]

Jesus may have said that but it isn't true. Having faith something is going to happen will get you no where. Hard work and persistence will. If you want to move a mountain then buy a bulldozer.



I suppose you should explain what you mean by sinner before I disagree. But I don't think of myself as a sinner. I'm a good person.

The lords work is never done ! there are lots of sinner's everywhere !

 

[Aries]

Jesus may have said that but it isn't true. Having faith something is going to happen will get you no where. Hard work and persistence will. If you want to move a mountain then buy a bulldozer.



I suppose you should explain what you mean by sinner before I disagree. But I don't think of myself as a sinner. I'm a good person.

Are you saying that you're perfect then? I consider myself a good person but I am far from perfect and therefore a sinner. If you ever lied or cheated or even got angry without merit, those things can make you a sinner. But if you're perfect, then I guess you're not a sinner.

 

[Tim]

Are you saying that you're perfect then? I consider myself a good person but I am far from perfect and therefore a sinner. If you ever lied or cheated or even got angry without merit, those things can make you a sinner. But if you're perfect, then I guess you're not a sinner.

Let me ask you a simple question... How can an atheist sin?

To sin is to break a moral rule set by a divine law. Sinning is a religious attribute... So if you do not believe in a divine being or divine law, how can you break one and sin?

 

[griz bear]

Let me ask you a simple question... How can an atheist sin?

To sin is to break a moral rule set by a divine law. Sinning is a religious attribute... So if you do not believe in a divine being or divine law, how can you break one and sin?

Let me take a stab at this. Yes, everyone even atheists sin. They may not see it themselves, but those who believe can. It's kind of like not believing in gravity, and wondering why rain falls from the sky.

 

[Aries]

Let me take a stab at this. Yes, everyone even atheists sin. They may not see it themselves, but those who believe can. It's kind of like not believing in gravity, and wondering why rain falls from the sky.

Exactly.

 

[Tim]

Let me take a stab at this. Yes, everyone even atheists sin. They may not see it themselves, but those who believe can. It's kind of like not believing in gravity, and wondering why rain falls from the sky.

But there is no god, so it was man who made these rules... so how can it be a divine law?

And it's not like gravity at all, gravity can be seen and felt by all. It's a law, not a myth.

 

[BornReady]

Are you saying that you're perfect then? I consider myself a good person but I am far from perfect and therefore a sinner. If you ever lied or cheated or even got angry without merit, those things can make you a sinner. But if you're perfect, then I guess you're not a sinner.

I don't lie without a good reason but I will lie to prevent hurting someone. In our society a certain amount of "lying" is expected and polite. I have gotten more angry than I should before but I don't have an anger problem that I need a savior to help me with. I can't remember ever having cheated on a test. Once I copied the chapter summary for a homework assignment instead of writing my own summary. But that hardly seems worthy of being called a sinner to me. Overall I'm a decent guy of good character.

My point isn't to brag. But I think saying everyone is a sinner is too pessimistic. Yes, there are some bad but there are also a lot of good people in the world.

 

[griz bear]

But there is no god, so it was man who made these rules... so how can it be a divine law?

And it's not like gravity at all, gravity can be seen and felt by all. It's a law, not a myth.

For those who believe, and can remember, God gave his only son, so that man could be saved.

So if it's felt and seen by all, it's a law. Interestingly one of the laws is, You should not kill. In most modern societies, killing is looked down upon.

 

[Tim]

For those who believe, and can remember, God gave his only son, so that man could be saved.

So if it's felt and seen by all, it's a law. Interestingly one of the laws is, You should not kill. In most modern societies, killing is looked down upon.

If you don't fast during Ramadan, do you believe that you sinned?

 

[griz bear]

If you don't fast during Ramadan, do you believe that you sinned?

NO...... Do you ?

 

[Tim]

NO...... Do you ?

Why not? In the religion of Islam, it is a major sin to not fast during Ramadan.
So why doesn't this sin apply to you?

 

[griz bear]

Why not? In the religion of Islam, it is a major sin to not fast during Ramadan.
So why doesn't this sin apply to you?

do you belive in God ?

 

[Tim]

do you belive in God ?

No, I do not. And that's exactly my point. For me to sin, I would need to believe in your god and break one of his divine laws.
Just like you do not consider it a sin to not fast during Ramadan since you are not Islamic, I do not consider it a sin to break a divine law of your god.

 

[griz bear]

No, I do not. And that's exactly my point. For me to sin, I would need to believe in your god and break one of his divine laws.
Just like you do not consider it a sin to not fast during Ramadan since you are not Islamic, I do not consider it a sin to break a divine law of your god.

Well then, Here in the Untied States, on the currency, which I assume you spend freely. It says in God we trust. Now How can you touch this ? Your wallet is full of little notes saying " In God we trust " most interesting.

 

[Tim]

Well then, Here in the Untied States, on the currency, which I assume you spend freely. It says in God we trust. Now How can you touch this ? Your wallet is full of little notes saying " In God we trust " most interesting.

What does that have to do with anything?

How long ago do you think that phrase showed up on our currency? Why was it added?
Do you know when the words "One nation under God" were added to the pledge of allegiance? Or do you think this phrase was in there from the beginning?