Patriots In Exile Club

[Alien Allen]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

How would you figure a consumption tax to work? The less you make, the larger percentage of your paycheck goes to consumable goods. Do you really think that someone that's making over a million a year is going to be spending most of it? Of course not, he will be stock piling it away. But take a family that makes $40k a year and the vast majority of it will be spent that same year, if not all of it. And with every purchase they make, they will be paying into the system once again.

If you don't see where rich would be paying more than their fair share with a consumption tax then we are not going to get anywhere. It is obvious they would pay more because they spend more and buy more things.

do you think it is reasonable that a citizen who lives in this country that enjoys all of its services and benefits should be allowed to pay zero taxes like a lot do? Under Obamas plans even more will not have to pay anything. Should not everybody have to pay something even if it is a penny a day??

 

[SgtSpike]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

Fuck that.....Let's talk about how pissed off I am that we are releasing Gitmo prisoners...

My guess is the new administration is going to kiss the asses of these backpack bomb carrying fucktards so they can leave Gitmo and go back to killing our asses.

I wouldn't be surprised if that terrorist who is suing the US government for being unlawfully detained wins his case and gets millions. And then the liberals would want to write a check to all the other terrorists of a million each just for good measure.

Your worried about some poor people getting $1k when they paid little or no taxes? Your right, I would feel much better giving it to those who don't need it. Let's make sure that none of these poor slobs get one fucking red cent when we can be helping wall street meet those million dollar bonuses... do you have any idea how hard it is to pay those bonuses in this economy? Must be hell on them

Those who need money either need to cut down on spending, find a better job, rely on family and friends, talk to a charity, or take money out of a rainy day savings that every person *should* be creating. The last thing the government should be doing is giving them money. Or at least they should make them work for it. You know, get a job and all that like the rest of us?

I have no (read: NO) sympathy for people living on the streets who refuse to find a job or cannot find one because they didn't bother to graduate high school. They can dig themselves out of their own messes, and the government taking money from me when I did things right and giving it to them when they did screwed themselves up is downright criminal.

I have no problem with helping the poor, don't get me wrong there, but it should be a CHOICE. We should be able to choose when and where we would like to use OUR HARD EARNED MONEY to help people out. Heck, if we didn't have welfare and social security, our taxes would be cut in half. We would actually have some extra money to throw around, give to the poor and whatnot! And it wouldn't be plagued by the inefficiencies of the government either!

If you don't see where rich would be paying more than their fair share with a consumption tax then we are not going to get anywhere. It is obvious they would pay more because they spend more and buy more things.

do you think it is reasonable that a citizen who lives in this country that enjoys all of its services and benefits should be allowed to pay zero taxes like a lot do? Under Obamas plans even more will not have to pay anything. Should not everybody have to pay something even if it is a penny a day??

Actually, Tim is right on this one. The rich don't spend as high of a percentage of their income as the poor do. If you make $40,000 in a year, you're probably going to spend just about all of it. Probably 95% of it if you're an average American. But if you make $4 million in a year, you're probably not going to be spending $3,800,000 of it. You might spend $2 million or so, but as a percentage of income, your spending will be less. So taxation, as a percentage of income, will be lower for the rich than for the poor with a consumption tax. And not many people are going to go for that.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

Actually, Tim is right on this one. The rich don't spend as high of a percentage of their income as the poor do. If you make $40,000 in a year, you're probably going to spend just about all of it. Probably 95% of it if you're an average American. But if you make $4 million in a year, you're probably not going to be spending $3,800,000 of it. You might spend $2 million or so, but as a percentage of income, your spending will be less. So taxation, as a percentage of income, will be lower for the rich than for the poor with a consumption tax. And not many people are going to go for that.

You disappoint Sarge. I never said anything about percentage of income. You got sucked into a liberal trap. Got nothing to do with percentages of income. Has everything to with percentages of dollars spent and clearly rich will spend more than the poor or middle class. Pretty obvious if they spend more because they have more money at their disposal then they will be paying more money in taxes.

 

[Tim]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

No matter how you slice it, consumption tax is a regressive tax unless you build in a lot of exemptions and provisions for everyday needs and services.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

No matter how you slice it, consumption tax is a regressive tax unless you build in a lot of exemptions and provisions for everyday needs and services.

you appeared to skip over my question.

Do you think it is ok for people to pay zero taxes, not even a penny?

 

[SgtSpike]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

You disappoint Sarge. I never said anything about percentage of income. You got sucked into a liberal trap. Got nothing to do with percentages of income. Has everything to with percentages of dollars spent and clearly rich will spend more than the poor or middle class. Pretty obvious if they spend more because they have more money at their disposal then they will be paying more money in taxes.

Ok, granted, you never said anything about a percentage. And I do see where you are coming from saying it has nothing to do with percentages of income. But considering that all of our taxes thus far have been a percentage of income, and any future tax plans will be compared by the same sort of measure, it would be a tough sell to anyone when you tell them that the rich will be paying less than the middle class or poor as a percentage of income. It's just the way people think. If we had a tax system based on consumption from the start of America, people wouldn't think twice about it, but since we've always had a tax based on income, that is how all future taxes will be compared.

Not to mention, if you tax consumption, people will be far less likely to consume, which would hurt and slow the economy. Consumerism is what drives the economy, and if people had more incentive to save, the GDP would fall.

The ideal tax would be something that evenly portrays the use of an object. For instance, the public roads. We all use them roughly equally, so we should all pay a roughly equal dollar amount of tax for them. Say $200/year. No matter how rich or how poor, if you use the roads, you have to pay the tax for them. Apply a similar policy to EVERYTHING, and you have a tax system that no one would accept, but would be technically correct and fair for everyone.

you appeared to skip over my question.

Do you think it is ok for people to pay zero taxes, not even a penny?

Absolutely not. I'm with BB, that the best solution for us is a flat tax all the way up and down, no deductions for persons, and strict deductions for companies.

 

[Tim]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

you appeared to skip over my question.

Do you think it is ok for people to pay zero taxes, not even a penny?

Yes, absolutely. Provisions should be made for those who barely make a living wage. I don't want a single mother who is working 2 full time jobs to make ends meet to lower my tax burden by paying "her share" of the taxes. This is why I believe in the progressive tax rate. When I first started out working while in high school, I barley made any money. What good what it have done to take a few dollars out of my pocket when that money was much more precious to me? Then as I progressed along the work ladder and made more and more money, my tax rate increased. It was at this time that I had more disposable income and those few dollars didn't mean that much anymore. Now I'm a project manager making a good wage. I know I pay a higher tax rate then I use to and that's ok with me. I also know that my tax rate is higher than the guys working in the shop on my projects, yet again, I'm fine with that. I don't mind paying a few percentage points more each time I move up a bracket. This is the price of success. I understand that I am where I am today and I make the kind of money I do because I live here in America. I don't mind giving back.
So I don't mind paying just a little bit more so that mother of 2 who is working twice as many hours as I am and only making a tenth of what I do can get her federal tax dollars back.

No whether the government is wasting my money or not is a completely different topic...

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

Yes, absolutely. Provisions should be made for those who barely make a living wage. I don't want a single mother who is working 2 full time jobs to make ends meet to lower my tax burden by paying "her share" of the taxes. This is why I believe in the progressive tax rate. When I first started out working while in high school, I barley made any money. What good what it have done to take a few dollars out of my pocket when that money was much more precious to me? Then as I progressed along the work ladder and made more and more money, my tax rate increased. It was at this time that I had more disposable income and those few dollars didn't mean that much anymore. Now I'm a project manager making a good wage. I know I pay a higher tax rate then I use to and that's ok with me. I also know that my tax rate is higher than the guys working in the shop on my projects, yet again, I'm fine with that. I don't mind paying a few percentage points more each time I move up a bracket. This is the price of success. I understand that I am where I am today and I make the kind of money I do because I live here in America. I don't mind giving back.
So I don't mind paying just a little bit more so that mother of 2 who is working twice as many hours as I am and only making a tenth of what I do can get her federal tax dollars back.

No whether the government is wasting my money or not is a completely different topic...

It is not fair for people to live here and get the benefit of roads, schools, you name it without at least giving something. You can not tell me that even the poorest person in the country could ill afford to pay a penny in taxes. Welfare state and socialism thinking and that is not how this county began. But it sure looks like that is how it will be destroyed

 

[Tim]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

Those who need money either need to cut down on spending, find a better job, rely on family and friends, talk to a charity, or take money out of a rainy day savings that every person *should* be creating. The last thing the government should be doing is giving them money. Or at least they should make them work for it. You know, get a job and all that like the rest of us?

I have no (read: NO) sympathy for people living on the streets who refuse to find a job or cannot find one because they didn't bother to graduate high school. They can dig themselves out of their own messes, and the government taking money from me when I did things right and giving it to them when they did screwed themselves up is downright criminal.

I have no problem with helping the poor, don't get me wrong there, but it should be a CHOICE. We should be able to choose when and where we would like to use OUR HARD EARNED MONEY to help people out. Heck, if we didn't have welfare and social security, our taxes would be cut in half. We would actually have some extra money to throw around, give to the poor and whatnot! And it wouldn't be plagued by the inefficiencies of the government either!

You do realize that the $1k tax credit/relief will only go to those who file their taxes, right? Don't worry, those dirty low life bums won't get any of OUR money... I would say your money, but I'll have to wait until you actually get into the workforce and start pulling your own weight.

If we didn't have welfare and social security, then we would be no better than a third world country. We could just leave the bastards rot in the streets until you decide to throw then a quarter...

Why don't you set some time aside and go work with some shut-ins or work a soup kitchen for a while. But you need to get in there and actually talk to them, who they were before in society, why their there now and why they don't just pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Then head down to the unemployment office and tell those people to suck it up and get a job because they aren't getting any of your tax dollars.

 

[Tim]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

It is not fair for people to live here and get the benefit of roads, schools, you name it without at least giving something. You can not tell me that even the poorest person in the country could ill afford to pay a penny in taxes. Welfare state and socialism thinking and that is not how this county began. But it sure looks like that is how it will be destroyed

You got me, I admit... I want this to be a country to be socialist. I'm looking forward to the day that I can quit my job and suck at the teet of society.

Just kidding
Come on, get your coat on, we'll head out and collect the pennies those bastards owe us. That will fix everything... :crazy:

 

[Tim]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

It is not fair for people to live here and get the benefit of roads, schools, you name it without at least giving something.

And what about the 2% of people making over a million dollars a year that pay no taxes? That's fair?

There are about 167,000 people that make over $1million a year - 2% of them equals 3340 people a year making over a million and not paying ANY federal tax... that doesn't even touch on the billions hid every year by the wealthy that will never get taxed. :thumbdown

 

[dt3]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

How would you figure a consumption tax to work? The less you make, the larger percentage of your paycheck goes to consumable goods. Do you really think that someone that's making over a million a year is going to be spending most of it? Of course not, he will be stock piling it away. But take a family that makes $40k a year and the vast majority of it will be spent that same year, if not all of it. And with every purchase they make, they will be paying into the system once again.

What if there was no tax on "necessary" items? Food at the store, toothpaste, etc... How would you feel about a consumption tax then?

 

[Accountable]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

I'd love it if no one paid federal taxes. States should collect taxes, then give the federal branch what they decide it needs.

 

[Tim]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

What if there was no tax on "necessary" items? Food at the store, toothpaste, etc... How would you feel about a consumption tax then?

I still think there are too many problems with it... I'm sure if there was any real merit to it working we would have seen it implemented in more than just India and Sri Lanka which only lasted a short time.
I know Alexander Hamilton was a proponent of it... But I think it has too many problems.

 

[Tim]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

I actually like the system we have... It just needs to be fixed. The tax code is way too complicated and our government wastes way too much money. We should just fix what we have and lower everyone's rate once we get rid of the massive waste and fraud.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

I'd love it if no one paid federal taxes. States should collect taxes, then give the federal branch what they decide it needs.

that is how it should be

the states should be paying the feds and the feds not holding the states hostage

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

And what about the 2% of people making over a million dollars a year that pay no taxes? That's fair?

There are about 167,000 people that make over $1million a year - 2% of them equals 3340 people a year making over a million and not paying ANY federal tax... that doesn't even touch on the billions hid every year by the wealthy that will never get taxed. :thumbdown

you got a source for this. I am not familiar with it.

If true then unless they are making a lot of donations to offset earnings I clearly would think it unfair. Nobody should earn money and get away without paying taxes

 

[Accountable]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

Watch the phrasing of the claim as well. Not paying income taxes is not not paying any federal taxes at all.

 

[SgtSpike]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

You do realize that the $1k tax credit/relief will only go to those who file their taxes, right? Don't worry, those dirty low life bums won't get any of OUR money... I would say your money, but I'll have to wait until you actually get into the workforce and start pulling your own weight.

If we didn't have welfare and social security, then we would be no better than a third world country. We could just leave the bastards rot in the streets until you decide to throw then a quarter...

Why don't you set some time aside and go work with some shut-ins or work a soup kitchen for a while. But you need to get in there and actually talk to them, who they were before in society, why their there now and why they don't just pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Then head down to the unemployment office and tell those people to suck it up and get a job because they aren't getting any of your tax dollars.

I'm already in the workforce, why would you assume I was not?

The problem is, there is far too much abuse of the system. You act as though I have no compassion, and though I do sound cold-hearted, I have no problem with helping those out who are down on their luck. But there's too many people who also use the welfare system while sitting on their rears eating potato chips and watching TV on the weekdays while claiming to be "disabled" because they are so overweight, or they take their welfare check and go buy some meth with it, or some other sort of abuse.

The fact of the matter is, so much of the money that is meant to help out people who are hard-working and simply down on their luck due to health or whatever other reasons is wasted on government inefficiencies or people who don't plan to work a day in their life. WE should be the ones who control who is getting our money, not the government.

 

[SgtSpike]

Re: The Conservatives In Exile Club

I actually like the system we have... It just needs to be fixed. The tax code is way too complicated and our government wastes way too much money. We should just fix what we have and lower everyone's rate once we get rid of the massive waste and fraud.

I agree with you there. I would like a flat-rate tax better, but what we have now is the second-best thing, and a flat-rate tax, even though it be idealistic, probably isn't practical.