Obama: Healthcare debate is "over"

[retro]

BTW my doc would have given me the cortisone shot in my neck and shoulder that same visit.

That would've been an irresponsible course of action, nobody knew what was wrong with my shoulder, so x-rays had to be taken, they had to be read by a radiologist, and then reviewed by an orthopedist.

So your basic claim is that the events that are documented in numerous surveys and studies are simply fantasy? Or that they don't happen often enough for them to be more than a blip on the radar. But when there are doctors over there saying the same things, and saying that there needs to be private health care options available, I'm somewhat disinclined to think that these are simply aberrations. I've been involved with or around medicine my entire life, and I only foresee disaster if we move to a public based, and eventually, single payer system.

Like I said, I'm glad the system works for you, but it is becoming more and more clear that it simply doesn't work for everyone like it does for you.

 

[nova]

I'm 56 and been through more medical shit than I care to recite yet again. If you add the years other Canadian posters are it would be safe to say there is hundreds of years of actual experience. Those same posters as well as myself have all said they don't know anyone that has been affected as outlined by Nova's so called facts.

Methinks the Canadian Medical Association has a bit more combined experience with the medical system than that and are in a bit better position to get an overall picture of things than a few people on a forum. I can't believe that you're sitting there saying the issues pointed out by your own gov't and your own doctors are bunk.

Do you honestly think they're lying?

Like I said, I'm glad the system is working for you, but its apparently not working for everybody.

 

[Alien Allen]

Methinks the Canadian Medical Association has a bit more combined experience with the medical system than that and are in a bit better position to get an overall picture of things than a few people on a forum. I can't believe that you're sitting there saying the issues pointed out by your own gov't and your own doctors are bunk.

Do you honestly think they're lying?

Like I said, I'm glad the system is working for you, but its apparently not working for everybody.

Actually I believe Guy

I think you will probably find there are areas where waiting is a big problem where in others it is not. It does not surprise me that he has no issues. If it was country wide there would be a bigger uproar.

Keep in mind that bad news travels faster than good news, and the squeaky wheel gets,,,, blah, blah, blah

Does not mean I dismiss concerns about both rationing and waiting :nod:

 

[Guyzerr]

Actually I believe Guy

I think you will probably find there are areas where waiting is a big problem where in others it is not. It does not surprise me that he has no issues. If it was country wide there would be a bigger uproar.

Keep in mind that bad news travels faster than good news, and the squeaky wheel gets,,,, blah, blah, blah

Does not mean I dismiss concerns about both rationing and waiting :nod:

Now we finally have someone that is making sense. I knew there was a god.

Time for a piss and a beer.

 

[Alien Allen]

Now we finally have someone that is making sense. I knew there was a god.

Time for a piss and a beer.

Careful I am one of the rabid wingers so you dare not get too close to me.

There does seem to be a bit of a problem though with waiting in many places Guy

Melissa mentioned more than once having to wait for getting to see her OB

The issue is payment for care here. Nobody has to wait to get it at this time. How much we will have to sacrifice in delays and rationing is the big concern. Keep in mind what is at issue too is that we are talking with 15% of the country that is out of that loop. Obamacare does not even close the loop. It just cinches it up a notch. Which is ludicrous given the cost and bureaucracy proposed.

Just so you know that last comment I made is considered cloaked criticism of Obamacare and as such I now must be a racist for doing so. :nod:

 

[Guyzerr]

Careful I am one of the rabid wingers so you dare not get too close to me.

There does seem to be a bit of a problem though with waiting in many places Guy

Melissa mentioned more than once having to wait for getting to see her OB

The issue is payment for care here. Nobody has to wait to get it at this time. How much we will have to sacrifice in delays and rationing is the big concern. Keep in mind what is at issue too is that we are talking with 15% of the country that is out of that loop. Obamacare does not even close the loop. It just cinches it up a notch. Which is ludicrous given the cost and bureaucracy proposed.

Just so you know that last comment I made is considered cloaked criticism of Obamacare and as such I now must be a racist for doing so. :nod:

Seriously dude I don't know one person that has had to wait for anything important.
I can get an appt with my doc within the week I call him, sooner if it's important. The reason for that short delay is because he's considered to be a damn good one and has a few too many patients imo. That could have been the case with Melissa as well. Just guessing. It's no big deal to me and I'm sure it wasn't to her either. To some a week + / - seems long and for those that do there are always walk-in clinics one can attend. You'll be seen within the hour.

I've spent weeks at a time in a hospital over the years and I've never slept in the hall. Always had a private or at worse semi private room. Never had to wait for any of my x-rays, tests, surgeries etc., emergency or otherwise.

Damn, when I think about it I'm sure I made medical history somewhere.

 

[Alien Allen]

Seriously dude I don't know one person that has had to wait for anything important.
I can get an appt with my doc within the week I call him, sooner if it's important. The reason for that short delay is because he's considered to be a damn good one and has a few too many patients imo. That could have been the case with Melissa as well. Just guessing. It's no big deal to me and I'm sure it wasn't to her either. To some a week + / - seems long and for those that do there are always walk-in clinics one can attend. You'll be seen within the hour.

I've spent weeks at a time in a hospital over the years and I've never slept in the hall. Always had a private or at worse semi private room. Never had to wait for any of my x-rays, tests, surgeries etc., emergency or otherwise.

Damn, when I think about it I'm sure I made medical history somewhere.

Well the point about going to a clinic is something I had not seen

I was under the impression you had a primary care doc you needed to got to.

In all fairness I think there is an exaggeration here about access to specialists. If you need to go to one there are delays. Not like you can go from the primary care to the specialist the next day. It depends upon the condition. If it is not life threatening it could be a month or three. But I will say 5 years ago after a physical at the end of November I was able to get Stress test, Colonoscopy and a couple other tests done by the end of the year.

 

[Guyzerr]

Well the point about going to a clinic is something I had not seen

Those clinics are like assholes around here. Every corner has one.

I was under the impression you had a primary care doc you needed to got to.

Under our system you have the option to see any doctor you wish with the exception of specialists. For those you need a referral. Matter of fact you can see a second, third or whatever number you want for differing opinions or recommendations. We are not directed to see anyone we don't want to. The choice is ours.

In all fairness I think there is an exaggeration here about access to specialists. If you need to go to one there are delays. Not like you can go from the primary care to the specialist the next day. It depends upon the condition. If it is not life threatening it could be a month or three. But I will say 5 years ago after a physical at the end of November I was able to get Stress test, Colonoscopy and a couple other tests done by the end of the year.

That doesn't sound any different than our system whatsoever. So what the hell is all the fuss about?

 

[Accountable]

I've spent weeks at a time in a hospital over the years and I've never slept in the hall. Always had a private or at worse semi private room. Never had to wait for any of my x-rays, tests, surgeries etc., emergency or otherwise.

Neither has almost anyone over here. It's these anecdotes that let people ignore statistics and scream like we're a third-world nation for having to pay our own way.

That doesn't sound any different than our system whatsoever. So what the hell is all the fuss about?

The fuss is over who pays. More and more people seem to be under the impression that since we are supposed to be equal that everyone should be able to have everything that rich people have, but without the effort they went to to become rich. So they spend all their own money then abuse credit cards and mortgages to get more than they can afford, and keep nothing in reserve for emergencies ... such as medical emergencies.

With freedom comes responsibility. To give up responsibility is to give up freedom. Americans have abandoned so much of their responsibilities that our economy is on the virge of collapse. Personally, I think it would be the best thing for us. We would still have the technology and the skilled people, and we would quickly find our spirit of independence we've lately placed on a shelf. We'd be better for the hardship.

It's great that you enjoy the way your country and culture are. I respectfully suggest that you and Europeans could never enjoy the lifestyle you have without us enjoying the lifestyle we have. All the innovation and research & development that happens here would never be paid for by your system. For us to adopt your system of dependence would cause world advancements to stagnate. Let's celebrate our differences.

 

[Peter Parka]

I respectfully suggest that you and Europeans could never enjoy the lifestyle you have without us enjoying the lifestyle we have. All the innovation and research & development that happens here would never be paid for by your system. For us to adopt your system of dependence would cause world advancements to stagnate.

Wow! And you wonder why so many people think Americans are arrogant arseholes???

 

[Accountable]

Wow! And you wonder why so many people think Americans are arrogant arseholes???

So you missed the "respectfully" part? We're living beyond our means, no doubt about it, but who has made more medical and pharmaceutical advancements than we have lately?

 

[MoonOwl]

Those that have no puritanical restrictions on Embryonic Stem Cell research?

 

[Accountable]

Those that have no puritanical restrictions on Embryonic Stem Cell research?

First, way to bring it from an oh-so-general statement down to a laser focus on a single part of a specific issue ... especially since you don't know if "those" even exist.

Second, lack of federal funding is not banning research. The only restriction is on tax dollars, which I would argue should not go to research at all. Give that tax money back to the people so they can decide what research they want to fund.

 

[Guyzerr]

Give that tax money back to the people so they can decide what research they want to fund.

Two answers for that.
- most people aren't knowledgeable enough to know what they would fund
- most would focus on an issue that would pertain to either themselves or someone they have direct contact with and are afflicted with some specific disease.

 

[Accountable]

Two answers for that.
- most people aren't knowledgeable enough to know what they would fund

Hardly an insurmountable problem.

- most would focus on an issue that would pertain to either themselves or someone they have direct contact with and are afflicted with some specific disease.

And that is a problem ... how?

 

[nova]

Wow! And you wonder why so many people think Americans are arrogant arseholes???

Arrogance or not, it doesn't change the fact that its our dollars paying for the vast majority of the research. Last I looked Pfizer alone spends $900 million a month on R&D. Someone has to pay that bill as labs, doctors and scientists aren't free.

The only way that Canada and Europe can cram down drug prices like they do, basically eliminating 98% of the existing profit margin, and there still be as much development as there is, is because the drug companies can raise their prices and thus profit margins on us here in the US.

I hope you guys have enjoyed your back door drug subsidy from the American people because if our genius of a president has his way, the gravy train is going to come to a halt....

Two answers for that.
- most people aren't knowledgeable enough to know what they would fund

Totally a non issue. In no other industry has lack of individual knowledge by the public at large prevented major innovations that make our lives better, why do you think medical care would be any different?

 

[Guyzerr]

Hardly an insurmountable problem.

I wouldn't bet one cent on it. Your current debates and townhall meetings about your current issue is solid proof of being unable to educate the masses.

And that is a problem ... how?

Because you can't fund every issue or concern.

I remember sitting in a bar in some small town in North Dakota during our travels a bunch of years ago. There were 3 or 4 guys at a table fighting about the upcoming vote on allowing a bottle recycling depot being proposed for their town and they couldn't even agree on that. If a vote is needed for that small of an issue think of the chaos that would be cause on something serious. I laughed about it then and I still laugh when I think about it today.

 

[Guyzerr]

Arrogance or not, it doesn't change the fact that its our dollars paying for the vast majority of the research. Last I looked Pfizer alone spends $900 million a month on R&D. Someone has to pay that bill as labs, doctors and scientists aren't free.

The only way that Canada and Europe can cram down drug prices like they do, basically eliminating 98% of the existing profit margin, and there still be as much development as there is, is because the drug companies can raise their prices and thus profit margins on us here in the US.

I hope you guys have enjoyed your back door drug subsidy from the American people because if our genius of a president has his way, the gravy train is going to come to a halt....



Totally a non issue. In no other industry has lack of individual knowledge by the public at large prevented major innovations that make our lives better, why do you think medical care would be any different?

Pfizers products are sold in Canada and I'm quite sure they are making a nice profit off them. If not do you think for one second they would export their stuff for sale here. I doubt it.

 

[nova]

I wouldn't bet one cent on it. Your current debates and townhall meetings about your current issue is solid proof of being unable to educate the masses.

Because the only reason you could possibly every be against "free" shit from the gov't is if you're ignorant or just plain stupid is that it? And people call Americans arrogant asses...

Because you can't fund every issue or concern.

I remember sitting in a bar in some small town in North Dakota during our travels a bunch of years ago. There were 3 or 4 guys at a table fighting about the upcoming vote on allowing a bottle recycling depot being proposed for their town and they couldn't even agree on that. If a vote is needed for that small of an issue think of the chaos that would be cause on something serious. I laughed about it then and I still laugh when I think about it today.

Again, a non-issue. You take it out of the political realm and let it be an issue decided by invidividuals and private orgs. Politics slows things down because, surprise surprise, we don't all agree on the path to take and you gotta listen to everybody if you're going to drag everybody along even against their will...

 

[Accountable]

I wouldn't bet one cent on it. Your current debates and townhall meetings about your current issue is solid proof of being unable to educate the masses.

Your analysis is solid proof of your (and society's) unwillingness to take on difficult problems, preferring to shunt them off to someone else, regardless of the longterm costs.

Because you can't fund every issue or concern.

So your answer is to only fund the most politically expedient??

Do you really believe that you yourself are not to be trusted with your own money and your own decisions? If that strikes a negative chord with you, what on earth makes you think you're better than everyone else? Trust others as you deserve to be trusted. Believe people as you deserve to be believed. Give people the freedom you your deserve to be given.