Obama: Healthcare debate is "over"

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nova

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Pfizers products are sold in Canada and I'm quite sure they are making a nice profit off them. If not do you think for one second they would export their stuff for sale here. I doubt it.

You just missed the entire point. Flew right by you...

You're right, a company won't sell their products for a loss.

Its not the fact that they're making ZERO profit, its the fact that its been severely curtailed. Of course if they can still make a little money they're going to keep selling their product there. Thats just good business.

But if you curtail their profits EVERYWHERE, then you start to have a problem. Pharma companies are still just a business and they have to make money, if not they go under. Thats the basic tenet of business is make money.

If
X = income and
Y = expenditures

and Y > X and X can't be increased because the gov't refuses to pay more.

You can't just stop selling everything because, well, you're out of business again, guess what, Y has to decrease and the big honking thing that Pharma spends their money on is R&D.
 
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nova

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Not to beat a horse but


http://www.viva.vita.bayerhealthcare.com/uploads/tx_csrbayernews/Figures_2007_update_01.pdf

Between 1990 and 2006, R&D investment in United States
grew 5 times while in Europe it only grew 2.9 times.

In 2006 North America accounted for 47.7% of world pharmaceutical
sales against 29.9% for Europe. According to IMS
Health data, 66% of sales of new medicines marketed since
2002 are generated on the US market, compared with 24% on
the European market
.

New drugs are where Pharma makes the majority of their money. Once a drug has gone generic, its really hard to make money with the name brand.

So please, tell me again how we're not paying for the R&D from which you benefit....
 
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Alien Allen

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Not to beat a horse but


http://www.viva.vita.bayerhealthcare.com/uploads/tx_csrbayernews/Figures_2007_update_01.pdf





New drugs are where Pharma makes the majority of their money. Once a drug has gone generic, its really hard to make money with the name brand.

So please, tell me again how we're not paying for the R&D from which you benefit....

Boy is that ever the truth. When I first started taking ambien I think it would have cost about $70-$80 for a month prescription. The generic is now about $5

On the flip side you have the excellerent in inhalers that was banned. The old stuff cost under $15 and the new about $70. Same medicine but the change in how it was dispensed required new patents and authorization etc. Tell me there is not a way this should have been avoided. Call it the Gore temporary tax I guess
 

Guyzerr

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Your analysis is solid proof of your (and society's) unwillingness to take on difficult problems, preferring to shunt them off to someone else, regardless of the longterm costs.
So your answer is to only fund the most politically expedient??

Not at all. The point I was trying to make was the debates you have down there turn into yelling matches full of misinformation from all sides. How the hell is one supposed to educate someone or become educated with that type of action.

I always said if you want to debate something your mouth has to be closed longer than it's open.

Do you really believe that you yourself are not to be trusted with your own money and your own decisions? If that strikes a negative chord with you, what on earth makes you think you're better than everyone else? Trust others as you deserve to be trusted. Believe people as you deserve to be believed. Give people the freedom you your deserve to be given.

I have never thought I was better than anyone else and of course I like to make my own financial decisions just as you do but how the hell would you propose it be done when so far your system lacks something? Not all of the 30 million + / - without coverage are bad money managers as some would like you to think. I'm quite certain you have many victims of misfortune and they are the ones I would be concerned with first and foremost.


Furthermore I was responding to this statement you made...

Second, lack of federal funding is not banning research. The only restriction is on tax dollars, which I would argue should not go to research at all. Give that tax money back to the people so they can decide what research they want to fund."


How would you propose the citizens would make decisions on which programs to fund if it wasn't put to a vote and how would you extract the $$$ from them? Even many that can afford coverage now don't purchase it so you don't have a snowballs chance in hell getting it for research. Throw the suggestions in a box and pick one might work maybe???
 
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Accountable

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Fundamental differences in our thought processes are difficult to overcome, but I'll give it a shot.
Not at all. The point I was trying to make was the debates you have down there turn into yelling matches full of misinformation from all sides. How the hell is one supposed to educate someone or become educated with that type of action.
The yelling matches are disagreements on how the government should spend our money. If each individual decides how his own money is spent, there is no more disagreement. The debate is over. The yelling match suddenly becomes a discussion no more inflammatory than whether Ford is better than Chevy.
Guyzerr said:
I have never thought I was better than anyone else and of course I like to make my own financial decisions just as you do but how the hell would you propose it be done when so far your system lacks something?
I suggest it be done individually. You spend your money, I spend mine.
Guyzerr said:
Not all of the 30 million + / - without coverage are bad money managers as some would like you to think. I'm quite certain you have many victims of misfortune and they are the ones I would be concerned with first and foremost.
Not all are bad money managers. Not all are even citizens. We already have safety nets for those who truly need them. We don't need a complete new government system.
Guyzerr said:
Furthermore I was responding to this statement you made...

Accountable said:
Second, lack of federal funding is not banning research. The only restriction is on tax dollars, which I would argue should not go to research at all. Give that tax money back to the people so they can decide what research they want to fund."

How would you propose the citizens would make decisions on which programs to fund if it wasn't put to a vote and how would you extract the $$$ from them? Even many that can afford coverage now don't purchase it so you don't have a snowballs chance in hell getting it for research. Throw the suggestions in a box and pick one might work maybe???
Extract?? We don't have the right to extract anything from anyone. Why would I need a vote to decide who to send my own money to? You seem to be stuck on sending money to a central agency. I'm talking about direct support. I'm not sure you realize just how deeply your dependence on the government goes. It's glaringly obvious to me in your posts.
 

Guyzerr

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Extract?? We don't have the right to extract anything from anyone. Why would I need a vote to decide who to send my own money to? You seem to be stuck on sending money to a central agency. I'm talking about direct support. I'm not sure you realize just how deeply your dependence on the government goes. It's glaringly obvious to me in your posts.

If you think people are going to voluntarily send their hard earned cash to some company to fund research than I need better snake oil sellin' lessons. Please point me in the right direction and boy they better be cheap.
 

Accountable

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I have never thought I was better than anyone else and of course I like to make my own financial decisions just as you do ...
If you think people are going to voluntarily send their hard earned cash to some company to fund research than I need better snake oil sellin' lessons. Please point me in the right direction and boy they better be cheap.
So you think people can't/shouldn't be trusted to make financial decisions, even though you yourself can/should be. I can understand that. Many, many people feel as you do.

I don't.

I respect your right to cede as much of your liberty to your government without criticism. Please pay me the same respect.
 

Guyzerr

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So you think people can't/shouldn't be trusted to make financial decisions, even though you yourself can/should be. I can understand that. Many, many people feel as you do.

I don't.

Then you have much more faith in common sense of the masses that I could ever have.

I respect your right to cede as much of your liberty to your government without criticism. Please pay me the same respect.

I view that as a very gentle slam ;) against my ideals but that's ok, I can handle it. Besides that it's so far from the truth it isn't funny.

As far as respect goes to date I haven't disrespected you. I haven't told you how to or not to spend your money or who to fund or not fund. I'm just quite certain it won't work by leaving it up to the population to decide. What's disrespectful about that?

The thing I can't understand is if socialized medicine works elsewhere around the world why the hell wouldn't it work there? What makes U S citizens so much different that the rest of the free world for it not to be able to work other than it's my money bla bla bla.
 

Accountable

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Then you have much more faith in common sense of the masses that I could ever have.
Apparently, despite you saying you don't think you're better than anyone else. I mean, I assume you see yourself as having common sense, don't you?
Guyzerr said:
I view that as a very gentle slam ;) against my ideals but that's ok, I can handle it. Besides that it's so far from the truth it isn't funny.
We clearly don't share the same ideals. If I read you wrong, please set me straight. Really.
Guyzerr said:
As far as respect goes to date I haven't disrespected you. I haven't told you how to or not to spend your money or who to fund or not fund. I'm just quite certain it won't work by leaving it up to the population to decide. What's disrespectful about that?
Failing to pay mutual respect [noun] is not the same as "disrespecting" [verb], but that's neither here nor there. A lot of people have commented here, so I've apparently mixed you up with someone else. Sorry.
Guyzerr said:
The thing I can't understand is if socialized medicine works elsewhere around the world why the hell wouldn't it work there? What makes U S citizens so much different that the rest of the free world for it not to be able to work other than it's my money bla bla bla.
This is the point I tried to make earlier. Your culture is so vastly different from mine, I'm not sure you have the empathy to understand, not only our views on this issue, but even that we are as different as we are.

The ability to fail is essential to growth. This odd trend to eliminate all negative consequences is causing all kinds of stupid, rash behavior. The result seems to be that more and more people are depending on the shrinking minority of responsible people to take care of them when they screw up. This is not responsible adult behavior. Life is hard. Life needs to be hard. Otherwise we don't appreciate what we have. That which costs nothing is worth nothing.
 

nova

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The thing I can't understand is if socialized medicine works elsewhere around the world why the hell wouldn't it work there? What makes U S citizens so much different that the rest of the free world for it not to be able to work other than it's my money bla bla bla.

Because we don't want the gov't deciding what care we can have and when we can have it.

I've said again and again, healthcare is a scarce resource with basically unlimited demand. Unlimited demand means that cost will be basically unlimited. Unfortunately we don't have unlimited resources to meet the cost of the unlimited demand. Therefore, logically, care has to be rationed in some way, shape or form...

The following is a better explanation than I can ever give...

Rationing By Any Other Name - Megan McArdle

Robert Wright notes that "we already ration health care; we just let the market do the rationing." This is a true point made by the proponents of health care reform. But I'm not sure why it's supposed to be so interesting. You could make this statement about any good:

"We already ration food; we just let the market do the rationing."
"We already ration gasoline; we just let the market do the rationing."
"We already ration cigarettes; we just let the market do the rationing."

And indeed, this was an argument that was made in favor of socialism. (No, okay, I'm not calling you socialists!) And yet, most of us realize that there are huge differences between price rationing and government rationing, and that the latter is usually much worse for everyone. This is one of the things that most puzzles me about the health care debate: statements that would strike almost anyone as stupid in the context of any other good suddenly become dazzling insights when they're applied to hip replacements and otitis media.

The rationing is, first of all, simply worse on a practical level: goods rationed by fiat rather than price have a tendency to disappear, decline in quality, etc. Government tends to prefer queues to prices. This makes most people worse off, since their time is worth much more than the price they would pay for the good. Providers of fiat-rationed goods have little incentive to innovate, or even produce adequate supplies. If other sectors are not controlled, the highest quality providers have a tendency to exit. If other sectors are controlled, well, you're a socialist, and I just agreed not to call you a socialist, because you're not a socialist.


But there is also a real difference between having something rationed by a process and having it rationed by a person. That is, in fact, why progressives are so fond of rules. They don't want to tell grandma to take morphine instead of getting a pacemaker. It's much nicer if you create a mathematical formula that makes some doctor tell grandma to take morphine instead of getting a pacemaker. Then the doctor can disclaim responsibility too, because after all, no one really has any agency here--we're all just in the grips of an impersonal force.

But this won't do. If you design a formula to deny granny a pacemaker, knowing that this is the intent of the formula, then you've killed granny just as surely as if you'd ordered the doctor to do it directly. That's the intuition behind the conservative resistance to switching from price rationing to fiat rationing. Using the government's coercive power to decide the price of something, or who ought to get it, is qualitatively different from the same outcome arising out of voluntary actions in the marketplace. Even if you don't share the value judgement, it's not irrational, except in the sense that all human decisions have an element of intuition and emotion baked into them.
 
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Guyzerr

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We clearly don't share the same ideals. If I read you wrong, please set me straight. Really.

I think we have the same ideals but I am quite passionate about our system because I know it works. It's isn't perfect but it's never let me or anyone I know down. Despite the horror stories dug up by others it doesn't change my opinion one iota because to me they are just that... stories.

Failing to pay mutual respect [noun] is not the same as "disrespecting" [verb], but that's neither here nor there. A lot of people have commented here, so I've apparently mixed you up with someone else. Sorry.

Fair enough.

This is the point I tried to make earlier. Your culture is so vastly different from mine, I'm not sure you have the empathy to understand, not only our views on this issue, but even that we are as different as we are.

I don't think our culture is much different. We eat the same food, dress in the same cloths, drive the same cars etc. The list is endless. If you put both of us in the same room nobody would know who's who. What is different is the Americans take on freedom. They aren't willing to let the govt they elect make decisions for them, at least not without a fight. Granted sometimes the masses have to take a stand but on every issue? To me that's a waste of energy.

The ability to fail is essential to growth. This odd trend to eliminate all negative consequences is causing all kinds of stupid, rash behavior. The result seems to be that more and more people are depending on the shrinking minority of responsible people to take care of them when they screw up. This is not responsible adult behavior. Life is hard. Life needs to be hard. Otherwise we don't appreciate what we have. That which costs nothing is worth nothing.

Being a society of " it's not my fault, it's his fault " is a world wide phenomenon not exclusive to the US. Common sense dictates you'll never be rid of it now that but isn't it a wise thing when someone learns from others successes or failures or should it be every man for himself?
 

Accountable

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I don't think our culture is much different. We eat the same food, dress in the same cloths, drive the same cars etc. The list is endless. If you put both of us in the same room nobody would know who's who. What is different is the Americans take on freedom. They aren't willing to let the govt they elect make decisions for them, at least not without a fight. Granted sometimes the masses have to take a stand but on every issue? To me that's a waste of energy.
This difference is core! Sure the surface looks the same, but the most meaningful parts of our cultures is almost polar opposites. When you say the most important thing in our national identity is a waste of time to you, I don't see how you can ever understand us - beyond the surface commonalities, that is.
Guyzerr said:
Being a society of " it's not my fault, it's his fault " is a world wide phenomenon not exclusive to the US. Common sense dictates you'll never be rid of it now that but isn't it a wise thing when someone learns from others successes or failures or should it be every man for himself?
I never meant to imply it was exclusive to the US; it's been everywhere else for a long time. It's starting here now.

Yes it's wise to learn from others, but personal excellence comes with hard work, trials, and failures to temper the spirit. And while it is definitely not every man for himself, every man should at least be for himself. Instead of all for one and one for all, it's becoming the government for all, and all for nothing.
 

Guyzerr

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When you say the most important thing in our national identity is a waste of time to you, I don't see how you can ever understand us - beyond the surface commonalities, that is.
You seem to like to twist my comments into something they are not. I never mentioned one thing about your national identity. What I said was " to fight about EVERY issue is a waste of time". The key word there is " every ". Being an outsider it's easy to see. Don't believe me then I suggest you ask folks from other countries how they feel. Peter Parka has made his comments well known and unfortunately those thoughts are shared by many.
 

Accountable

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You seem to like to twist my comments into something they are not. I never mentioned one thing about your national identity. What I said was " to fight about EVERY issue is a waste of time". The key word there is " every ". Being an outsider it's easy to see. Don't believe me then I suggest you ask folks from other countries how they feel. Peter Parka has made his comments well known and unfortunately those thoughts are shared by many.
We were originally talking about healthcare in the US. Is this one of the issues that is a waste of time not letting the government decide?
 

Guyzerr

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We were originally talking about healthcare in the US. Is this one of the issues that is a waste of time not letting the government decide?
I guess ultimately you have to decide but I know the way it's being beat around now isn't solving a damn thing. That's where the time wasting comes into effect. There's a big difference between a productive discussion and a yelling match.
 

Accountable

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That's because the debate's not really about healthcare, but over power, decisions, autonomy. If that debate could be settled, the healthcare issue would be a piece of cake.
 

Minor Axis

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Depends on what you mean by meaningful reform.

If you mean they go along without whatever dear leader and his congressional cronies want, then no. They're not going to go for a gov't takeover and neither are the American people. Period.

If you mean reform that addresses the root causes the problems and complaints against the system, then yes, I believe they would.

I don't have your confidence. It will always be "too expensive" in the minds of conservatives.

If this was a question of simply providing for those who are unable, it wouldn't be an issue. I've said again and again, if the focus was on reforming Medicaid to provide for the 8-12 million people chronically poor and uninsured, then it would have been passed 3-4 months ago.

You think so? We have groups in the country who benefit from government regulated health care- Medicare, the Military, Government employees that include our representatives in Congress. Why not fix the root problems and open it up these kinds of coverage to the majority of Americans? Private companies can compete if they want to but I don't see them making as much money. It's that simple and I don't see the Republicans buying it because it "costs to much".

1. Glad you enjoy those cheap prescriptions that we here in the US implicitly subsidize for you precisely because our gov't doesn't cram down prices. Should we do something stupid like that, you should be ready for either your costs to go up or the flow of new and better drugs to trickle to a stop. There's something like $6 billion/month spent on drug R&D and the vast majority of it is NOT coming from you guys or the Europeans....

This is something that I've heard conservatives say for years, oh no, we don't pay too much, the rest of the world pays too little, it's their fault! No matter what is alleged, pharmaceuticals make a killing in the current system. Maybe the rest of the world could stand to pay more, but we can certainly stand to pay one heck of a lot less.

PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY PROFITS INCREASE BY OVER $8 BILLION AFTER MEDICARE DRUG PLAN. -warn, this will load/download a pdf.
 
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Minor Axis

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Exactly what's wrong with today's medicine. Instead of physicians entering the field for desire to help cure and mend, they are in it for $$$$$$$$$$. Fuck all new mercenary doctors.

That is part of the root problem, when a dr. charges $18000 to Blue Cross for a 50 min gall bladder operation. That is completely over the top. I saw the bill.
 
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