Obama: Healthcare debate is "over"

[Alien Allen]

To help pay for his bill, Baucus is proposing a series of new excise tax on insurance plans worth more than $8,000 for singles and $21,000 for families, and new fees on consumers, consumers, consumers and consumers.

If that is for a year then that would be one hell of a plan. I think a Blue Cross PPO with no deductible, no copay and with $10/$20 for medicine is about $1800 a month. And you can not get much better than that.

 

[Minor Axis]

I've got two questions-

Does anyone feel that health care reform is needed?

I do and I know some others in this forum do, although the loudest here are against it.

Does anyone feel that the Republican party will ever say "yes" to meaningful health care reform?

I don't. They won't say "yes" until the concept has been completely neutered, the status quo is maintained, and Obama has been defeated. It's completely obvious. When it comes to any social program you have to drag social conservatives to the table, kicking and screaming about the end of their world. They will never willingly agree, as they never have agreed with any program that helps working class citizens. If I'm wrong, I invite you to name a single social program in the history of the conservative movement, that originated with conservatives.

 

[Accountable]

1. We'd have to first agree on what "health care reform" even means.

2. You have the Repub motivation all wrong. They're anti-Dem program, full stop. The thought process goes no further than that with the vast majority of the politicians.

 

[Guyzerr]

If that is for a year then that would be one hell of a plan. I think a Blue Cross PPO with no deductible, no copay and with $10/$20 for medicine is about $1800 a month. And you can not get much better than that.

You can if you move to Canada. :24: Just sayin'....

 

[Peter Parka]

You can if you move to Canada. :24: Just sayin'....

And the UK. Pstt... the USA haven't realised there are other countries other than beardy suicide bombers.

 

[nova]

Does anyone feel that health care reform is needed?

Yes, serious reforms are needed as I've said several times. I just have no doubt in my mind that reform should involve LESS gov't involvement and not more.

Does anyone feel that the Republican party will ever say "yes" to meaningful health care reform?

Depends on what you mean by meaningful reform.

If you mean they go along without whatever dear leader and his congressional cronies want, then no. They're not going to go for a gov't takeover and neither are the American people. Period.

If you mean reform that addresses the root causes the problems and complaints against the system, then yes, I believe they would.

If this was a question of simply providing for those who are unable, it wouldn't be an issue. I've said again and again, if the focus was on reforming Medicaid to provide for the 8-12 million people chronically poor and uninsured, then it would have been passed 3-4 months ago. Instead the boob in the white house and the boobs in the congress wanted a complete takeover and now everything is a mess...

You can if you move to Canada. Just sayin'....

Must be great having to enter lotteries to get a PCP, wait months for surgery and oh have at least some of your patients shipped across the border under contract to US hospitals because you don't have the resources for them. Funny I've never heard of us shipping people across the border to Canadian hospitals...

 

[Peter Parka]

It's kind of funny, I was talking to my mum about this big protest today. She'd heard something about it but didn't really understand what it was all about. I explained to her that the new President wants to introduce a National Health Service and she was completely mystified.
"Why dont people want free health care?" she asked me.
Got to admit, it stumped me. Only answer I could give her was that there are a lot of selfish people in the USA who would rather see people die than pay more tax. :dunno

 

[Codrus]

peter i think you should start a health care poll...ask people if the want to be healthy and stuff

 

[nova]

"Why dont people want free health care?" she asked me.

Thats the problem. NOTHING is free. If something is "free" to you that just means someone else is paying the bill....

Got to admit, it stumped me. Only answer I could give her was that there are a lot of selfish people in the USA who would rather see people die than pay more tax. :dunno

Dude, I already pay nearly half my income in one tax or another. Federal income tax, state income tax, social security, medicare, property tax, sales tax, gas tax, tax on electricity, tax on water, tax on the phone, dining taxes, vehicle registration taxes, and on and on and on.

And with a wife in medical residency, we are by no stretch of the imagination wealthy. We're firmly middle class.

How much more of our lives are we supposed to spend working for other people? Because ultimately what you're talking about is not $$ but time, time that we can never get back, spent earning that $$$. What would be enough? Is it 60%? 70%? Maybe 90%? Or is it all of it?

I've never found a "those poor people" liberal willing to answer the question of "How much is enough?" I guess that deep down they all know the "Karl Marx" answer they want to give won't be very popular...

Hell, I, like most Americans, don't mind helping people who really need it but I'll be damned if I'm gonna lay down, acquiesce to a gov't power grab and pay for everybody just because...

 

[Peter Parka]

I guess you wouldn't like the answer I gave her when she asked "Why are so many Americans angry that their kids took ten minutes off school work to hear their president tell them to work hard in school, then?:dunno

 

[nova]

I guess you wouldn't like the answer I gave her when she asked "Why are so many Americans angry that their kids took ten minutes off school work to hear their president tell them to work hard in school, then?:dunno

I'd just like an answer of how much is "enough" of my income to pay in taxes. I've never gotten an answer to that question from someone who supports higher taxes for whatever cause and I've never heard any leader or pundit give an answer.

When the only answer I ever hear to problems is "raise taxes and throw money at it" with nobody willing to set an upper limit on said taxes, thats extremely worrisome as the guy footing the bill...

 

[ssl]

you do know why this is occurring?

the missile defense system was canceled, but this is a bigger story, so the mds over in europe will be swept under the rugs...

 

[Accountable]

I'd just like an answer of how much is "enough" of my income to pay in taxes. I've never gotten an answer to that question from someone who supports higher taxes for whatever cause and I've never heard any leader or pundit give an answer.

When the only answer I ever hear to problems is "raise taxes and throw money at it" with nobody willing to set an upper limit on said taxes, thats extremely worrisome as the guy footing the bill...

You have to realize that in other countries, "tax" is the difference between what an employer pays and what the government decides you deserve to keep. Since the government pays for every essential, what you keep is pocket money. Like an allowance. You don't need much pocket money, do you?

 

[Guyzerr]

Must be great having to enter lotteries to get a PCP, wait months for surgery and oh have at least some of your patients shipped across the border under contract to US hospitals because you don't have the resources for them. Funny I've never heard of us shipping people across the border to Canadian hospitals...

Funny I've never had to wait for any of the major surgeries I've had and I'll tell ya I had more than I care to count. I've also never been shipped across the border. btw I don't know anyone caught in the predicament you would like to think is so common. Don't believe everything you're being spoon fed.

 

[Guyzerr]

Thats the problem. NOTHING is free. If something is "free" to you that just means someone else is paying the bill....



Dude, I already pay nearly half my income in one tax or another. Federal income tax, state income tax, social security, medicare, property tax, sales tax, gas tax, tax on electricity, tax on water, tax on the phone, dining taxes, vehicle registration taxes, and on and on and on.

And with a wife in medical residency, we are by no stretch of the imagination wealthy. We're firmly middle class.

How much more of our lives are we supposed to spend working for other people? Because ultimately what you're talking about is not $$ but time, time that we can never get back, spent earning that $$$. What would be enough? Is it 60%? 70%? Maybe 90%? Or is it all of it?

I've never found a "those poor people" liberal willing to answer the question of "How much is enough?" I guess that deep down they all know the "Karl Marx" answer they want to give won't be very popular...

Hell, I, like most Americans, don't mind helping people who really need it but I'll be damned if I'm gonna lay down, acquiesce to a gov't power grab and pay for everybody just because...

My monthly premiums are $96.00 for health insurance and that covers the family. My premium for Blue Cross is $24.00. That's a total of $120.00 which in your country would pay for a roll off asswipe in a hospital. Sure beats the numbers posted by Alien Allen doesn't it. Besides doctor visits, hospital stays, surgeries, etc., etc,. the insurance I have includes dental coverage and a shitload of other stuff as well. Damn I forgot about drugs. Bastards have the nerve to charge us $8.00 a pop. Me and the Mrs. pop a lot so it's putting us in the poorhouse. :24:

The problem with insurance, any insurance, is that nobody wants to pay it because they can't wrap their hands around the goods so to speak. Unfortunately there will be a time in everyones life that it's needed or at least good to have unless of course you die in your sleep or are killed " instantly ". Those instances are the exception, not the rule so you can bet the farm you're going to need deep pokets.

 

[MoonOwl]

My monthly premiums are $96.00 for health insurance and that covers the family. My premium for Blue Cross is $24.00. That's a total of $120.00 which in your country would pay for a roll off asswipe in a hospital. Sure beats the numbers posted by Alien Allen doesn't it. Besides doctor visits, hospital stays, surgeries, etc., etc,. the insurance I have includes dental coverage and a shitload of other stuff as well. Damn I forgot about drugs. Bastards have the nerve to charge us $8.00 a pop. Me and the Mrs. pop a lot so it's putting us in the poorhouse. :24:

The problem with insurance, any insurance, is that nobody wants to pay it because they can't wrap their hands around the goods so to speak. Unfortunately there will be a time in everyones life that it's needed or at least good to have unless of course you die in your sleep or are killed " instantly ". Those instances are the exception, not the rule so you can bet the farm you're going to need deep pokets.

I could go for that. We had to drop our $600/mo for a $3k deductible because we were tired of getting screwed and couldn't afford it any longer... They would drop the price $20/mo if we went to a $5k deduct....:willy_nilly:

Our government do anything that truly benefits WeThePeople??? :24::24::24::24: Trillions for corporations - squat for us. The New American Way. Well, we do get the debt from all those trillions..... That must be the kiss we get after getting screwed?? To the tune of $100+k for every man, woman & child....This is appears to be what our government thinks of us: :fing27

 

[nova]

You have to realize that in other countries, "tax" is the difference between what an employer pays and what the government decides you deserve to keep. Since the government pays for every essential, what you keep is pocket money. Like an allowance. You don't need much pocket money, do you?

Uh yeah, thanks but no thanks.

Still any takers for exactly how much of my income I should have to pay in taxes? Any at all?

Funny I've never had to wait for any of the major surgeries I've had and I'll tell ya I had more than I care to count. I've also never been shipped across the border. btw I don't know anyone caught in the predicament you would like to think is so common. Don't believe everything you're being spoon fed.

I'm not being spoon fed anything thank you very much. Your own doctors seem to think wait times are a problem

Health wait times require action now, say docs

For cancer patients, the study found that the median wait time for radiation therapy was almost seven weeks, exceeding the benchmark of four weeks.

7 weeks for cancer treatement? Guy I went to college had an inoperable glioblastoma (brain tumor). 2 days from his regular doc, to seeing an oncologist, to being on chemo and radiation therapy. 2 days. It didn't save his life because he was unlucky enough to have a type of cancer with a 1 year mortality rate of somewhere around 98%, but quick action managed to stretch his life out nearly 2 years.

Patients are also facing long delays when they go the emergency department, the WTA said, waiting an average of nine hours to be seen and treated and for patients who needed to be admitted, the average wait time was nearly 24 hours.

"The longer wait for patients to be admitted is often due to the inability to find an available hospital inpatient bed," the WTA said.

24 hours to from the ER to a bed due to lack of beds? The only reason I'd have to wait here is if there were people actually dying ahead of me.

And here

Canadians visit U.S. to get health care | Detroit Free Press | Freep.com

your system is so well managed, and medical infrastructure so lacking they're contracting with hospitals in the hellhole that is Detroit of all places to provide needed services

Agreements between Detroit hospitals and the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care for heart, imaging tests, bariatric and other services provide access to some services not immediately available in the province, said ministry spokesman David Jensen.

We may have people slipping across the border to buy implicitly subsidized drugs from Canada, but we damn sure aren't wholesale shipping people across the border for treatment as a matter of policy to combat lack of infrastructure...

And you've got doctors having lotteries to determine who gets to be his patient...

In Canada, Doctors Use Lottery to Drop Patients - Health Blog - WSJ

Honest, I've lived in some backwoods podunk nowhere places in my life and have a lot of friends and family who still do. Not once, ever have I heard of requiring a lottery to determine who gets to see the doctor. That is absolutely insane...

It may not be happening everywhere but the fact that it happens at all is disturbing....

My monthly premiums are $96.00 for health insurance and that covers the family. My premium for Blue Cross is $24.00. That's a total of $120.00 which in your country would pay for a roll off asswipe in a hospital. Sure beats the numbers posted by Alien Allen doesn't it. Besides doctor visits, hospital stays, surgeries, etc., etc,. the insurance I have includes dental coverage and a shitload of other stuff as well. Damn I forgot about drugs. Bastards have the nerve to charge us $8.00 a pop. Me and the Mrs. pop a lot so it's putting us in the poorhouse. :24:

1. Glad you enjoy those cheap prescriptions that we here in the US implicitly subsidize for you precisely because our gov't doesn't cram down prices. Should we do something stupid like that, you should be ready for either your costs to go up or the flow of new and better drugs to trickle to a stop. There's something like $6 billion/month spent on drug R&D and the vast majority of it is NOT coming from you guys or the Europeans....

2. With the low cost of your coverage it all makes sense. Fits right in with exactly what I've said over and over and over again.

To allocate a scarce resource with essentially unlimited demand, keep the price to the individual low and keep overall costs low, there has to be rationing of some form or another. There has to be, no way around it...

One way Canada hides it by doing it implicitly with wait times. If there's not enough money in the budget for your procedure this month, then you get bumped to next month or the next. Budgeting being what it is, if whatever you need done is a common, cheap and easy procedure, you're probably gonna be good to go because they probably allocated a lot of money for those procedures. If you need something done thats not as common or costs a lot, you're probably shit outta luck.

The other way they hide it is by lack of infrastructure investments. The cost of an MRI or a CAT scan is moot if there's not one for you to go to. Which goes back to why they end up shipping people across the border to get treatment...

 

[Guyzerr]

Nova I'm not going to rip your post to shreds because I don't have enough time to waste. Another reason is because I live the system and know for a fact that there is more bullshit in that so called news piece than I care to dwell on.

I wish you well in your overpriced system while I use mine whenever I need to at no further cost to myself.

 

[retro]

Nova I'm not going to rip your post to shreds because I don't have enough time to waste. Another reason is because I live the system and know for a fact that there is more bullshit in that so called news piece than I care to dwell on.

I wish you well in your overpriced system while I use mine whenever I need to at no further cost to myself.

AKA I don't have any concrete arguments to refute what you said, so I'm going to posture and pretend that I do and then go about my business. Nova provides concrete facts, and you counter with "well I live here". Congratulations, I'm glad the system works for you; but it seems pretty obvious that there are a lot of people that it doesn't work for.

I'd much rather pay more out of my own pocket for quality care and not having to wait around for weeks or months to be able to see a specialist. My insurance plan sucks pretty badly, but I was still able to get in to see my doctor on a Friday for shoulder problems after making the appt that day, got x-rays after the appt, and then in to see a specialist and get a cortisone shot on Tuesday, it would've been Monday but I had other obligations.

 

[Guyzerr]

AKA I don't have any concrete arguments to refute what you said, so I'm going to posture and pretend that I do and then go about my business. Nova provides concrete facts, and you counter with "well I live here". Congratulations, I'm glad the system works for you; but it seems pretty obvious that there are a lot of people that it doesn't work for.

I'd much rather pay more out of my own pocket for quality care and not having to wait around for weeks or months to be able to see a specialist. My insurance plan sucks pretty badly, but I was still able to get in to see my doctor on a Friday for shoulder problems after making the appt that day, got x-rays after the appt, and then in to see a specialist and get a cortisone shot on Tuesday, it would've been Monday but I had other obligations.

Ok Retro I'm going to try and explain this one last time.

I don't know if it was in this thread or a different one but I as well as other Canadians have posted about their acctual, get it, actual experience(s) with our system. At no time has anyone said anything even remotely close to being negative as pointed out by Nova. I'm 56 and been through more medical shit than I care to recite yet again. If you add the years other Canadian posters are it would be safe to say there is hundreds of years of actual experience. Those same posters as well as myself have all said they don't know anyone that has been affected as outlined by Nova's so called facts. That number probably climbs into the thousands. Are we all living a fantasy like ya'll Americans would like to believe? Me thinks it's not as obvious as you think it is. Spoon feeding at it's best I tend to think.

The " facts " as pointed out by Nova can be screwed any which way depending on what side of the fence the " fact finders " are on at any given moment.

BTW my doc would have given me the cortisone shot in my neck and shoulder that same visit.

In any event I'm done with this thread cuz I really don't give a rip what you guys do down there.