Military Respect

[All Else Failed]

I think its pretty fair to say that even a Iraqi that is freindly to the US would rather have us not be in his backyard controlling his life.

 

[IntruderLS1]

No, actually i'm a history major. Its a fact that the militias did most of the fighting and that France saved our butts later on with their navy.

I'm not mocking the military at all. I have several family members in the military. I just think this administration is using the military to accomplish its own gain. Its pretty clear that we won't be able to ever change the Iraqi's minds. We aren't fighting an enemy over there, we are fighting a idea, a philosophy thas been instilled in that region for thousands of years. They do NOT want us there and we have no right to force "democracy" on them.

LOL. You know what man. The first couple of times I read your posts, I really thought you were a guy who had it all together. I disagreed with you in a lot of ways, but you didn't strike me as the type to just spout off about things you didn't take time to study first. First impressions can be wrong I guess.

As a side note to my main point here, France took care of France during the American revolution. They helped us no doubt, but I assure you, it wasn't a glorious French Navy victory over the British that "saved our butts."

You may be a history major, but you're certainly not an American History major.

The Iraqis do NOT want us there. Why do you think they lie when questioned, allow insurgence to use their facilities, and even cooperate with them?

Are you even remotely aware that we are there at the invitation of the constitutionally elected government of Iraq? We have said many times, that if they ask us to leave, we will. They have said publicly many times that they would like for us to stay and continue to help. They do want us there. The story Hottie told earlier about her fathers experience has been my experience as well. I've spent so much time over there it's ridiculous, and the hospitality of those people never ceases to amaze me. White said something profound also in that nobody can speak for 100% of the Iraqi citizens. What you're doing, is you're watching the news, and you're listening to your Air-America, and you are basing your views on a part of the world you've never seen on the 1% that you're told about.

If you build a poll, and ask the average Iraqi, "Would you like to see Iraqi forces able to fully secure this country without the help of the Coalition forces?" What do you think they'll say? The answer is "Of course!!" Now with that question asked, you can extrapolate however you like and tell Americans that they want us gone because they said such-and-such, but if you ask that same question differently... "Do you want Iraqi forces to take full control today and send the Coalition forces home immediately?" And the answer is probably going to be more along the lines of "well, we're not quite ready yet, but hopefully soon."

Anybody can point to a place on the map and find people who hate any country. You can even find citizens of every nation on earth that hate their own country. What makes you think these should be the representatives of their societies?

 

[Tim]

Are you even remotely aware that we are there at the invitation of the constitutionally elected government of Iraq? We have said many times, that if they ask us to leave, we will. They have said publicly many times that they would like for us to stay and continue to help. They do want us there.

BAGHDAD, Sept. 26 -- A strong majority of Iraqis want U.S.-led military forces to immediately withdraw from the country, saying their swift departure would make Iraq more secure and decrease sectarian violence, according to new polls by the State Department and independent researchers.... source

Views on this war change from week to week. Even though the troups were very welcome at first, as time wears on, so does the patients of the people that once supported it. There is a time in every war that requires those in charge to develope an exit strategy, as explained here by Bush

George W. Bush, 4/9/99:

“Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is.”
​

He was refering to then President Clinton, and on the specific need for a timetable, here’s what Bush said then and what he says now:
George W. Bush, 6/5/99

“I think it’s also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn.”
​

VERSUS
George W. Bush, 6/24/05:

“It doesn’t make any sense to have a timetable. You know, if you give a timetable, you’re — you’re conceding too much to the enemy.”
​

The most common theory heard on the streets of Baghdad is that the American military is creating a civil war to create an excuse to keep its forces here.
"Do you really think it's possible that America -- the greatest country in the world -- cannot manage a small country like this?" Mohammad Ali, 42, an unemployed construction worker, said as he sat in his friend's electronics shop on a recent afternoon. "No! They have not made any mistakes. They brought people here to destroy Iraq, not to build Iraq."
As he drew on a cigarette and two other men in the store nodded in agreement, Ali said the U.S. government was purposely depriving the Iraqi people of electricity, water, gasoline and security, to name just some of the things that most people in this country often lack.
"They could fix everything in one hour if they wanted!" he said, jabbing his finger in the air for emphasis.
Mohammed Kadhem al-Dulaimi, 54, a Sunni Arab who used to be a professional soccer player, said he thought the United States was creating chaos in the country as a pretext to stay in Iraq as long as it has stayed in Germany.
"All bad things that are happening in Iraq are just because of the Americans," he said, sipping a tiny cup of sweet tea in a cafe. "When should they leave? As soon as possible. Every Iraqi will tell you this."

 

[All Else Failed]

LOL. You know what man. The first couple of times I read your posts, I really thought you were a guy who had it all together. I disagreed with you in a lot of ways, but you didn't strike me as the type to just spout off about things you didn't take time to study first. First impressions can be wrong I guess.

As a side note to my main point here, France took care of France during the American revolution. They helped us no doubt, but I assure you, it wasn't a glorious French Navy victory over the British that "saved our butts."

You may be a history major, but you're certainly not an American History major.



Are you even remotely aware that we are there at the invitation of the constitutionally elected government of Iraq? We have said many times, that if they ask us to leave, we will. They have said publicly many times that they would like for us to stay and continue to help. They do want us there. The story Hottie told earlier about her fathers experience has been my experience as well. I've spent so much time over there it's ridiculous, and the hospitality of those people never ceases to amaze me. White said something profound also in that nobody can speak for 100% of the Iraqi citizens. What you're doing, is you're watching the news, and you're listening to your Air-America, and you are basing your views on a part of the world you've never seen on the 1% that you're told about.

If you build a poll, and ask the average Iraqi, "Would you like to see Iraqi forces able to fully secure this country without the help of the Coalition forces?" What do you think they'll say? The answer is "Of course!!" Now with that question asked, you can extrapolate however you like and tell Americans that they want us gone because they said such-and-such, but if you ask that same question differently... "Do you want Iraqi forces to take full control today and send the Coalition forces home immediately?" And the answer is probably going to be more along the lines of "well, we're not quite ready yet, but hopefully soon."

Anybody can point to a place on the map and find people who hate any country. You can even find citizens of every nation on earth that hate their own country. What makes you think these should be the representatives of their societies?

I can't believe you don't see the fact that we installed a puppet government over there. Do you really think an occupier of a country that has major future resource interests in that country would allow people to be elected that will act negatively towards them? Really.

Yeah, thanks for telling me where I get my news man, I would be lost without your insight into my life. If they majority wanted us there, then why do so many of them lie through their teeth to us, aid the enemy, plant roadside IED's, and help plan ambushes? I too have family members over there, so its not what I hear on the news, it comes straight from what my family memebrs tell me. My cousin is in the army and has been deployed over seas for 2 years now. He says these people absolutely detest America, and most of them try to delay any kind of operations they are trying to carry out. But I guess he's lieing, huh?


The "security force" we are trying to train over there is a complete joke. You have to understand that these people are loyal to their local regions, religious sects and clerics WELL before any of the US trainers over there. It has been well documented that entire Iraqi and military units have crossed over to local militias and armed gangs that are hostile towards the US because they have no loyalty to us at all. They had to switch the head of training the security forces, like, 3 times already because none of them are effective at all.


I want you to watch this entire thing, and tell me that we will EVER get anywhere with these people: FRONTLINE: gangs of iraq: watch online | PBS


The biggest beef I have with this whole Iraq trainwreck is the fact that we invaded a soveriegn country ilegally with basically no evidence whatsoever of what we were accusing them of. But I guess thats our fasion as a imperialistic country.

 

[memento_mori]

Back as a doe-eyed sophomore in highschool, I wrote about the irony of instilling a democracy in Iraq when we have to circumvent the UN, an international democracy, to do so. I poked fun at Bush's threats of renaming french fries to freedom fries, and slapped my forehead when Bush couldn't stop talking about God when we're fighting religous extremists. With all the stupidity going on, I thought we'd pull out too quick like we did in the first gulf war.

As years went on, I kept feeling more and more appalled by the friendly fire deaths. But apparently, they're better than last time according to Friendly Fire Deaths At All-Time Low, U.S. Army Data Claims 17 Soldiers Have Died In Iraq And Afghanistan - CBS News

I don't know what the Iraqis think. The only way I'll find out myself is to sign my name, grab a gun, and fly on over there.

But I will ask you this-

what happened to Osama?

 

[HottyToddyChick]

What you're doing, is you're watching the news, and you're listening to your Air-America, and you are basing your views on a part of the world you've never seen on the 1% that you're told about.

No kidding! The news highlights the bad things because they want to spark controversy in America. If the person in charge of the station doesn't agree with the war, they will put a slant on it. Unfortunately, good things never make it into the news. Nobody gets emotional or excited by good news. It's the bad news that Americans can relate to because all most people want to focus on is the bad. It's easy to start a conversation about something awful so everyone can sympathize with one another.

The news will play a video of an American shooting an Iraqi civilian, but what you don't see off screen is the group of Iraqis with weapons or bombs threatening the lives of the very soldiers that fight to keep you safe.

 

[All Else Failed]

No kidding! The news highlights the bad things because they want to spark controversy in America. If the person in charge of the station doesn't agree with the war, they will put a slant on it. Unfortunately, good things never make it into the news. Nobody gets emotional or excited by good news. It's the bad news that Americans can relate to because all most people want to focus on is the bad. It's easy to start a conversation about something awful so everyone can sympathize with one another.

The news will play a video of an American shooting an Iraqi civilian, but what you don't see off screen is the group of Iraqis with weapons or bombs threatening the lives of the very soldiers that fight to keep you safe.

Or, they want to report the fact that the situatuion over there is quickly deteriorating into a massive civil war we are already caught in the middle of.


I'm not going to sit here and deny there is or isnt slant in the media. There's a slant in every news source one way or another. The thing is, most people who are in favor of the Iraq war watch FOX news religiously and then they criticize other news stations for being biased. Something definitely wrong with that...

Wait, how can you make such a blanket statement like that? You don't know everyone in America, so how can you say people don't get excited over good news? I would be euphoric if we had a pull-out deadline set up.


Wait, you said the news will show a iraqi civilian getting shot by the US, but in the mean time there are insurgence off camera with guns? So does that make killing civilians right? Do you care for Iraqi civilians getting killed by us?

 

[HottyToddyChick]

Honestly, if an Iraqi is threatening an American life, shoot 'em. I would. If anyone threatened my life and I was in the military, I would considering that a threat to my country, and there is nothing more important to me in this world.

 

[All Else Failed]

Honestly, if an Iraqi is threatening an American life, shoot 'em. I would. If anyone threatened my life and I was in the military, I would considering that a threat to my country, and there is nothing more important to me in this world.

What do you qualify as "threatening"? Acting suspiciously?


What makes an American civilian's life more important then a Iraqi civilian's life?


If insurgence where using innocent people as human shields, and they were shooting at American troops from behind them, would you fire into the civilians to kill the insurgence?

 

[HottyToddyChick]

Whose life do you value more? Your own, or are you willing to sacrifice it for someone who couldn't care less?

Yes, in a war zone, suspicious definitely counts as threatening. There's no such thing as too safe, and I would rather shoot at the wrong time than dismiss it and wind up being shot. But if you want to get shot at and killed, be my guest.

 

[dt3]

I don't even know where to begin in this thread. I've already typed out 3 replies and deleted them, and now I'm starting over. I don't know how to say everything I want to say. I'm not going to re-debate the war, I've done that enough on here.

In the original post, someone on a different board said people join the military as a last resort. That's true in some cases, but even then, how is it a bad thing? Somebody isn't sure where their life is headed, so they look for some structure, discipline and organization. What's wrong with that? I've been in the Marine Corps for just under 5 years now, and I'm extremely proud to have served with the people I've known. Even the ones I didn't like are heads-and-shoulders above the rest of Americans their age who sit on their asses back home bitching about the military and the war while only knowing the half-truths and blatant lies they hear on TV.

I don't give a damn who supports the war and who doesn't. The only point I want to make is that the troops don't decide which wars to fight and which ones to sit out. We do our job, and we all do it for different reasons. The one thing people need to realize though, is you can support the troops without supporting the war. People spouting off crap about the military are only highlighting their own ignorance. The issues people have with the war should NEVER be directed at the people on the bottom of the totem pole. "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die". It's not the troops job to worry about politics and public opinion.

I just spent a year in Iraq. I'm damn proud of what I accomplished, what my unit accomplished, and what the US as a whole has accomplished. It was a year that will define me for the rest of my life. And I refuse to let any nay-saying liberal second-guesser take that away from me.

What it comes down to is the troops are given a job to do. And we will ALWAYS do it to the absolute best of our abilities.

That simple fact is the reason America is the nation it is today, and it will ensure America's success long into the future, regardless of how this war ends up.

 

[OUZBnd]

You know, I have the utmost respect for people in the military. But one thing that really bothers me is when people who aren't in the military are put down in comparison merely for chosing a different path. Simply because you are not in the military does not mean you aren't making a difference in this world or making it a better place to live. Show respect both ways.

 

[memento_mori]

I was reading through another forum and somebody started a poll asking if soldiers deserved the same respect as the students killed at VT. By respect, they mean that every time a soldier dies, the flag should be flown at half-staff. Everyone on there is saying that the men and women in the military are more than aware that they are going to die, so it's different. Someone even said people join as a last resort, not to protect our country or our freedom. And then there was the person who said we should mourn fallen Iraqis. I know there is a lot of military respect on this forum, and I wanted to see what everyone's opinion is on why people join, or what level of respect our military deserves.


I don't really want to get going just yet, but I will say that I think it is a tad ridiculous for an Army soldier to ask for the flag to be flown half-staff everytime a member of the armed forces dies. It would permanently be down there.

the VT shootings are closer to home, less expected, and get more press time. its going to be on more americans minds than the war, i think 30% might forget we're over there in the first place.

asking why people join the military is like asking why people do anything, there's just too many different motivations. but i think the main reasons are like the 3 Gs my history teacher taught us on why people went to africa: God, Gold, and Glory

i know i find the whole pay-for-your-college-tuition deal tempting. and as popularized by system of a down's BYOB, there are some poor people in the army just looking for cash.

some people do it for God and country, they really think it's the right thing to do.

others do it for glory.

 

[dt3]

You know, I have the utmost respect for people in the military. But one thing that really bothers me is when people who aren't in the military are put down in comparison merely for chosing a different path. Simply because you are not in the military does not mean you aren't making a difference in this world or making it a better place to live. Show respect both ways.

I didn't mean to disrespect everyone who's not in the military. I agree completely that it should go both ways.

The point I wanted to make is, in my opinion, it's bullshit for someone who's never been in the military to criticize or disrespect the military.

 

[memento_mori]

The point I wanted to make is, in my opinion, it's bullshit for someone who's never been in the military to criticize or disrespect the military.

now that's just not true. tax payers money goes to fund the military, and it's the public's right to voice their opinions of whether we should be in a war or not.

now if people were all "every1 ind a militery r fagz. dey al wanna go cros seaz sot hey can sock bush's cock" then we'd have a problem.

 

[dt3]

I didn't say anything about not criticizing the war, that's every American's right. I just think they shouldn't disrespect the military because of the war.

 

[memento_mori]

i agree then. we shouldnt have a repeat of vietnam, spitting on soldiers when they get back.

but public opinion of the war does tie in to whether we should have the same kind of reaction we did to VT as we should the soldiers.

 

[dt3]

That's true, but I think Intruder summed up perfectly why we shouldn't lower the flag for our soldiers, and I agree with him.

 

[NightWarrior]

Wow. A lot of reading there guys/gals. I wanted to say that I am disappointed in just about everyone who posted something. If you truly want to make a change, go into Politics and become an elected official. It is so easy to sit here and judge after the fact. The American public wanted results after 9/11 happened. I am not saying Bush went about it right, but no President in his position would have reacted the "right" way. There is no easy way to exit this mess we've gotten ourselves into too. If we pull all the troops tomorrow, that region is going to turn into shit. I do feel we need to get the boys and girls home though, it is way overdue.

I say FU** YOU to the rest of the world. If we stood around like the rest of the pansies and watch stuff happen, we will be called the bad guys.

Heres another point guys/gals. If you don't like the way things are happening here in the US, then by all means go live in Canada or somewhere else. Hell go to France. Quit complaining about what the politicians are doing, you can't change it anyway. All you do is sound like whiners. People die everyday from different things. Anyone who dies deserves equal respect, regardless of circumstance. What happened at Virginia Tech was an absolute tragedy. So is what is happening in Iraq or any hospital across America.

 

[memento_mori]

Wow. A lot of reading there guys/gals. I wanted to say that I am disappointed in just about everyone who posted something. If you truly want to make a change, go into Politics and become an elected official.

or, you know. do the democracy thing- talk about it, vote about it, let the people in charge know how we feel they did and what they should do in the future.

It is so easy to sit here and judge after the fact. The American public wanted results after 9/11 happened. I am not saying Bush went about it right, but no President in his position would have reacted the "right" way.

judging after the fact is all we can do about the fact, other than making a time machine and making everything better. by forming our opinions about the situation we can write the history text books and send a signal to people in the future, thats the best time machine we've got. and bush did a piss poor job of handling the situation. people wanted osama and people wanted to heal after the tragedy. he was on the right path imo when he said "let's all go shopping" but attacking iraq was writing a short essay for a multiple choice question.

There is no easy way to exit this mess we've gotten ourselves into too. If we pull all the troops tomorrow, that region is going to turn into shit. I do feel we need to get the boys and girls home though, it is way overdue.

you're right. what do we do next? millions of lives are on the line, which is why some of us bloggers are sitting with our thumbs up our asses, not saying what to do next because it might be wrong. we need to get past that mentality, come to a middle ground, and get a game plan. im crossing my fingers on my other hand that judging whats happened so far will help us decide what to do in the future.

I say FU** YOU to the rest of the world. If we stood around like the rest of the pansies and watch stuff happen, we will be called the bad guys.

i say fuck you to people who don't take responsibility for their actions. and the way i see it, more people will call us the bad guys for taking irrational action and causing unnecessary damage.

Heres another point guys/gals. If you don't like the way things are happening here in the US, then by all means go live in Canada or somewhere else. Hell go to France. Quit complaining about what the politicians are doing, you can't change it anyway. All you do is sound like whiners. People die everyday from different things. Anyone who dies deserves equal respect, regardless of circumstance. What happened at Virginia Tech was an absolute tragedy. So is what is happening in Iraq or any hospital across America.

that's just the thing- we CAN change what will happen. we cant vote in canada or france, and moving out is to abandon the country that raised us (most of us on this thread anyway).

people die everyday for different reasons. the soldiers and iraqis that die in iraq, are dying because an executive decision was made to go to war. they are not dying because they have pulmonary heart disease, they are not dying because they went to classes on the wrong day. these are different events that mean different things to different people, nothing same about it other than people dying.

so what does the death of our troops and iraqi citizens mean to you?

to me, it means we damn well better be careful about what we do this time. im not for quick withdrawl of our troops simply because we want them home. i think we need to sway popular opinion in iraq, calm down the rebellions, and bring stability to the country- whatever that means.