Military Respect

[HottyToddyChick]

I was reading through another forum and somebody started a poll asking if soldiers deserved the same respect as the students killed at VT. By respect, they mean that every time a soldier dies, the flag should be flown at half-staff. Everyone on there is saying that the men and women in the military are more than aware that they are going to die, so it's different. Someone even said people join as a last resort, not to protect our country or our freedom. And then there was the person who said we should mourn fallen Iraqis. I know there is a lot of military respect on this forum, and I wanted to see what everyone's opinion is on why people join, or what level of respect our military deserves.


I don't really want to get going just yet, but I will say that I think it is a tad ridiculous for an Army soldier to ask for the flag to be flown half-staff everytime a member of the armed forces dies. It would permanently be down there.

 

[All Else Failed]

Its a tragedy when anyone dies. Class, race, ethnicity shouldnt matter.


As for now, instead of flying the flag at half staff, we should be flying it upside down...

 

[HottyToddyChick]

I am such a huge military supporter, so I'm sure I have an incredibly biased point of view. My whole family is military and it's definitely had an impact on me. I firmly believe that with out the military, we would not be the United States of America, we would either be sitting down to tea and scones every afternoon (no offense to anyone from England!) or most of us would be dead because we don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. I get to choose the house I want to live in, the clothes I wear, the car I drive, the classes I take, all because of the men and women willing to die for this country. My boyfriend doesn't have any military ties and thinks I'm extreme so I just wanted to see how other people really felt about the military and what we are doing over in the Middle East.

It is a tragedy when anyone dies, but honestly, I don't cry into my pillow at night for the women and children that have died overseas. I'm sure there are innocent people who have died, but if even suspected that someone was going to do harm to me or the people I lived with, I wouldn't hesistate to prevent it. If some little kid came up to me with a bomb strapped to themselves, I'd have no problem shooting them. Sorry if that makes me a horrible person.

However, I think there is a huge difference between being killed in a combat zone and waking up to go to class, planning your week or even what you'll eat for lunch, only to have that opportunity snatched out from under you. What happened at VT is horrible, and is in no way comparable to dying at war, but I don't believe that one deserves any more or less respect than the other. I also don't know if I agree with flying that flag upside down.

 

[SilentSinz]

half mass it should, there fighting for us its the least we can do, but this is a very touch subject..i hate touchy..so ive said what i had to say..that is all

 

[All Else Failed]

I am such a huge military supporter, so I'm sure I have an incredibly biased point of view. My whole family is military and it's definitely had an impact on me. I firmly believe that with out the military, we would not be the United States of America, we would either be sitting down to tea and scones every afternoon (no offense to anyone from England!) or most of us would be dead because we don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. I get to choose the house I want to live in, the clothes I wear, the car I drive, the classes I take, all because of the men and women willing to die for this country. My boyfriend doesn't have any military ties and thinks I'm extreme so I just wanted to see how other people really felt about the military and what we are doing over in the Middle East.

It is a tragedy when anyone dies, but honestly, I don't cry into my pillow at night for the women and children that have died overseas. I'm sure there are innocent people who have died, but if even suspected that someone was going to do harm to me or the people I lived with, I wouldn't hesistate to prevent it. If some little kid came up to me with a bomb strapped to themselves, I'd have no problem shooting them. Sorry if that makes me a horrible person.

However, I think there is a huge difference between being killed in a combat zone and waking up to go to class, planning your week or even what you'll eat for lunch, only to have that opportunity snatched out from under you. What happened at VT is horrible, and is in no way comparable to dying at war, but I don't believe that one deserves any more or less respect than the other. I also don't know if I agree with flying that flag upside down.

Actually, if it wasn't for our militias and the French Navy we would be sipping tea and eating scones. :tongue:

I wouldn't say that the military is totally responsible for everything we enjoy today, but I agree to a certain extent.

You'll probably not like this, but I totally disagree with why we are over in Iraq...but yeah.

I don't see how a uniform magically makes a death more tragic than a person without one?

Flying the flag upside down is a symbol of civil unrest, or corruption in the government. Ithink there's plenty of that to go around...

 

[HottyToddyChick]

From what I understand, the Marines have been around since way before our government was established, so that's why I credit the military. I guess militia is a more appropriate term. I was also taught that an upside down flag symbolized distress. I don't think we are necessarily in Iraq for the right reasons, although I would prefer an assumption to be wrong than to overlook something and there actually have been something worth going there for. I didn't mean to come across as VT being less tragic; all I meant was that, although both are tragic, they are in completely different classes. It's apples and oranges.

I just don't understand how people can be so nonchalant or even disrespectful towards soldiers, sailors, airmen, or Marines. I'm of the mindset, if you don't like it, get out. No one is forcing you to live here.

 

[All Else Failed]

From what I understand, the Marines have been around since way before our government was established, so that's why I credit the military. I guess militia is a more appropriate term. I was also taught that an upside down flag symbolized distress. I don't think we are necessarily in Iraq for the right reasons, although I would prefer an assumption to be wrong than to overlook something and there actually have been something worth going there for. I didn't mean to come across as VT being less tragic; all I meant was that, although both are tragic, they are in completely different classes. It's apples and oranges.

I just don't understand how people can be so nonchalant or even disrespectful towards soldiers, sailors, airmen, or Marines. I'm of the mindset, if you don't like it, get out. No one is forcing you to live here.

The Continental Marines were established on Novermber 10th, in 1775. The militias were already doing mos tof the heavy fighting way before that. But this is just a tangent.


Why do you think we are in Iraq?


Different cases, still they are are dead people.

 

[HottyToddyChick]

The Marines were supposed to be established on Nov 10 1775. There were two battalions proposed. Long before that, during the War of Jenkins's Ear, 3000 Marines formed what was refered to as Gooch's Marines. That was between 1738 and 1741.

Ironically, although this is the celebrated birthday of the Marine Corps, the two Battalions resolved to be formed never were. There is also no evidence to suggest that any Marine ever rose above a rank of major. However, Marine guard detachments were quite quickly recruited and assigned aboard ships. John Hancock, the President of the Continental Congress, appointed Captain Samuel Nicholas, the son of pacifist Quakers, the first commandant of the corps. Nichols set up headquarters at the Tun Tavern in Philadelphia, and began to recruit Marines with the help of the tavern's proprietor, who received a commission as a captain. (Birth of the Corps - the USMC)

Not saying militia wasn't around, but Marines have been a long standing branch of the military.

We are in Iraq because Bush was provided with (false) information concerning WMD in Iraq and decided to take action. We already had troops over there, and after 9/11, I can't say I blame him for being paranoid.

 

[All Else Failed]

The Marines were supposed to be established on Nov 10 1775. There were two battalions proposed. Long before that, during the War of Jenkins's Ear, 3000 Marines formed what was refered to as Gooch's Marines. That was between 1738 and 1741.

Ironically, although this is the celebrated birthday of the Marine Corps, the two Battalions resolved to be formed never were. There is also no evidence to suggest that any Marine ever rose above a rank of major. However, Marine guard detachments were quite quickly recruited and assigned aboard ships. John Hancock, the President of the Continental Congress, appointed Captain Samuel Nicholas, the son of pacifist Quakers, the first commandant of the corps. Nichols set up headquarters at the Tun Tavern in Philadelphia, and began to recruit Marines with the help of the tavern's proprietor, who received a commission as a captain. (Birth of the Corps - the USMC)

Not saying militia wasn't around, but Marines have been a long standing branch of the military.

We are in Iraq because Bush was provided with (false) information concerning WMD in Iraq and decided to take action. We already had troops over there, and after 9/11, I can't say I blame him for being paranoid.

The militias were the main fightinf force of the revolution though.


So you think it has nothing to do with Bush's ties to global oil companies and resources? Or the fact that America is imperialist?

 

[Peter Parka]

Sorry if I sound harsh here but the flying of the flag at half mast ect goes on so much now that I think the gesture has lost its significance. Its like over here, it seems like you can't go to a football match without all the players wearing black arm bands and having a minutes silence for someone who has died. I have utmost respect for people who put their life on the line for my country, I just find this gesture kind of hollow and cliched these days.

 

[IntruderLS1]

I wish I could rep ya a hundred times HottyToddy. You're a breath of fresh air.

All Else... You're letting me down mate. Your lack of understanding of early American history does not become you. A 10 second google search, or watching a bad ass movie doesn't give you the whole picture. You've gotta watch that. You'll erode your image of always having it so down.

I agree with you almost completely Hotty. The guy who wrote that editorial was very emotional I'm sure, but that doesn't give credence to what he said. (If anything, it detracts). When we sign up to fight, we sign up to fight. I know it's the cool thing now to diss the service for being full of people who don't want to be there, but I assure you, the VAST majority of them signed up for nobile causes. People who mock the military for being stupid don't have even the most basic grasp on reaity.

The fact is, that the military IS responsible for what we enjoy today. Sure politicians and good people have built this country, but they have only had that chance because they were being protected.

If I had been killed over there, I would NEVER want the colors flown at half staff for me. Fly that bad boy as high as it goes, and I'm honored! The time to morn is not in the middle of the fight. The middle of the fight deserves us standing tall and proud. Every ounce. Every breath. Every strength, and every opportunity.

Morn us on our holiday, after the victory is secure. And even then, let your mourning be only a reflection of sacrifice, and a kind word of thanks to our brothers and sisters in uniform. It's more than we'll ever ask.

 

[Suzie]

I wish I could rep ya a hundred times HottyToddy. You're a breath of fresh air.

All Else... You're letting me down mate. Your lack of understanding of early American history does not become you. A 10 second google search, or watching a bad ass movie doesn't give you the whole picture. You've gotta watch that. You'll erode your image of always having it so down.

I agree with you almost completely Hotty. The guy who wrote that editorial was very emotional I'm sure, but that doesn't give credence to what he said. (If anything, it detracts). When we sign up to fight, we sign up to fight. I know it's the cool thing now to diss the service for being full of people who don't want to be there, but I assure you, the VAST majority of them signed up for nobile causes. People who mock the military for being stupid don't have even the most basic grasp on reaity.

The fact is, that the military IS responsible for what we enjoy today. Sure politicians and good people have built this country, but they have only had that chance because they were being protected.

If I had been killed over there, I would NEVER want the colors flown at half staff for me. Fly that bad boy as high as it goes, and I'm honored! The time to morn is not in the middle of the fight. The middle of the fight deserves us standing tall and proud. Every ounce. Every breath. Every strength, and every opportunity.

Morn us on our holiday, after the victory is secure. And even then, let your mourning be only a reflection of sacrifice, and a kind word of thanks to our brothers and sisters in uniform. It's more than we'll ever ask.

Damn... that was really touching. We should have more people like you in America.

 

[All Else Failed]

I wish I could rep ya a hundred times HottyToddy. You're a breath of fresh air.

All Else... You're letting me down mate. Your lack of understanding of early American history does not become you. A 10 second google search, or watching a bad ass movie doesn't give you the whole picture. You've gotta watch that. You'll erode your image of always having it so down.

I agree with you almost completely Hotty. The guy who wrote that editorial was very emotional I'm sure, but that doesn't give credence to what he said. (If anything, it detracts). When we sign up to fight, we sign up to fight. I know it's the cool thing now to diss the service for being full of people who don't want to be there, but I assure you, the VAST majority of them signed up for nobile causes. People who mock the military for being stupid don't have even the most basic grasp on reaity.

The fact is, that the military IS responsible for what we enjoy today. Sure politicians and good people have built this country, but they have only had that chance because they were being protected.

If I had been killed over there, I would NEVER want the colors flown at half staff for me. Fly that bad boy as high as it goes, and I'm honored! The time to morn is not in the middle of the fight. The middle of the fight deserves us standing tall and proud. Every ounce. Every breath. Every strength, and every opportunity.

Morn us on our holiday, after the victory is secure. And even then, let your mourning be only a reflection of sacrifice, and a kind word of thanks to our brothers and sisters in uniform. It's more than we'll ever ask.

No, actually i'm a history major. Its a fact that the militias did most of the fighting and that France saved our butts later on with their navy.

I'm not mocking the military at all. I have several family members in the military. I just think this administration is using the military to accomplish its own gain. Its pretty clear that we won't be able to ever change the Iraqi's minds. We aren't fighting an enemy over there, we are fighting a idea, a philosophy thas been instilled in that region for thousands of years. They do NOT want us there and we have no right to force "democracy" on them.

 

[HottyToddyChick]

I guarantee you the people in Iraq would rather have American forces patrolling their streets than for Saddam to still be in control. Unless you have been over there, or have heard first hand accounts of what Iraqis believe, you shouldn't say things you have no knowledge of. Do you remember when they tore the statue of Saddam down? I cried because you could tell how excited these people were to finally be in control again. Nobody wants to be ruled over the way they were. Do you remember pictures of women holding their inked fingers up with HUGE smiles on their faces because they got to vote? Not only were they voting, they were choosing for themselves. A vote 'against' Saddam meant death. They are a much happier country since we have changed things, and you are a fool to believe otherwise. The only people who are against us being there are the insurgents, and they are not the kind of people I give a damn about.

 

[Tim]

...They are a much happier country since we have changed things, and you are a fool to believe otherwise...

Human Rights Watch has estimated Saddam Hussein's regime killed 250,000 to 290,000 people over 20 years.

source

A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred.

source

This second quote was reported in October of last year. I wonder how the numbers look today.

Do you really think they are happier now than they were pre-war? No doubt that Saddam was a horrible leader that killed many people and he needed to go. But it was his barbaric rule that kept the country from tearing itself apart. You don't save a country from a madman by tearing it apart. It would be the same as your doctor amputating your arm instead of stitching up the cut on your hand.

 

[HottyToddyChick]

Maybe more people have died since we've been there than because of Saddam in the past twenty years, but how many of those people were as ruthless as he was? How many who died we threatening American troops?

I really and truly believe they are happier, yes. My father was there for over 8 months and made friends with so many Iraqis. One man sent my father home with gifts for all of us. That doesn't sound like someone who is angered by our presence. My dad was also in an area where he had a profound effect on a whole school district. He and my mother organized a drive for school supplies and shipped over 500 pounds to Iraq so these children would be able to learn and become educated. My father and the people he worked with were invited to the wedding ceremony of the daughter of one of the highest men in that region. The Iraqis made them the guests of honor, and allowed them to enjoy the Iraqi traditions. The Americans were even presented with the highest honor of being the ones to eat the eyeballs out of a goats head. Sounds gross, but from what I was told, it was the best meal some of these men had eaten in a very long time. I felt bad for my dad when he sent us those pictures, and he said it was one of the most wonderful moments of his life.

We are not trying to control their country. We are trying to give them the tools and knowledge they need to govern themselves peacefully. As far as I can tell, it seems as though they are pretty appreciative so far. When our troops do eventually leave, they will have complete control and if they truly desire to live the way they have been forced to live, they will adopt that lifestyle again. There is nothing wrong in trying to help others live a free life. No human wants to be oppressed. Regardless of how long they have known that. Oppression is not happiness. Freedom is happiness.

 

[All Else Failed]

I guarantee you the people in Iraq would rather have American forces patrolling their streets than for Saddam to still be in control. Unless you have been over there, or have heard first hand accounts of what Iraqis believe, you shouldn't say things you have no knowledge of. Do you remember when they tore the statue of Saddam down? I cried because you could tell how excited these people were to finally be in control again. Nobody wants to be ruled over the way they were. Do you remember pictures of women holding their inked fingers up with HUGE smiles on their faces because they got to vote? Not only were they voting, they were choosing for themselves. A vote 'against' Saddam meant death. They are a much happier country since we have changed things, and you are a fool to believe otherwise. The only people who are against us being there are the insurgents, and they are not the kind of people I give a damn about.

The Iraqis do NOT want us there. Why do you think they lie when questioned, allow insurgence to use their facilities, and even cooperate with them?

In fact, it is generally agreed on that MORE people have died from our war in Iraq than Saddam ever killed.
Iraq Body Count | DATABASE | Latest Updates
100,000 Civilian Deaths Estimated in Iraq (washingtonpost.com)
Have you been over to Iraq? Have you questioned everyone on the street? There is a reason why the Iraqi people are not happy with our involvment over there.

I won't deny that the Iraqis were happy when we FIRST came in, but since then they have grown extremely tired of us being there. Plus, we're now caught in the middle of a suni and shiite civil war now since we cannot possibly regulate the two groups.

Yeah, its great that they have the right to vote, but since most of the candidates up for vote are candidates the US selects to run our guy is going to get in either way.


Yeah, not having jobs, power, running water and having a record number of their fellow citizens being killed every day qualifies as them being happy. At least when Saddam was in power, they had stable jobs and there was almost zero citizen against citizen violence.

 

[Peter Parka]

I hold somewhere in betmeen these two views. The average Iraqi who just wants to get on with his life welcomes the troops from our countries over there. Its the religious nutters, Sheite and Sunni who are exploiting this when they wouldn't dare under Sadams rule of terror.

 

[All Else Failed]

Maybe more people have died since we've been there than because of Saddam in the past twenty years, but how many of those people were as ruthless as he was? How many who died we threatening American troops?

I really and truly believe they are happier, yes. My father was there for over 8 months and made friends with so many Iraqis. One man sent my father home with gifts for all of us. That doesn't sound like someone who is angered by our presence. My dad was also in an area where he had a profound effect on a whole school district. He and my mother organized a drive for school supplies and shipped over 500 pounds to Iraq so these children would be able to learn and become educated. My father and the people he worked with were invited to the wedding ceremony of the daughter of one of the highest men in that region. The Iraqis made them the guests of honor, and allowed them to enjoy the Iraqi traditions. The Americans were even presented with the highest honor of being the ones to eat the eyeballs out of a goats head. Sounds gross, but from what I was told, it was the best meal some of these men had eaten in a very long time. I felt bad for my dad when he sent us those pictures, and he said it was one of the most wonderful moments of his life.


We are not trying to control their country. We are trying to give them the tools and knowledge they need to govern themselves peacefully. As far as I can tell, it seems as though they are pretty appreciative so far. When our troops do eventually leave, they will have complete control and if they truly desire to live the way they have been forced to live, they will adopt that lifestyle again. There is nothing wrong in trying to help others live a free life. No human wants to be oppressed. Regardless of how long they have known that. Oppression is not happiness. Freedom is happiness.

Its not a maybe issue. Its a FACT that more people have died since we came in. Look at my links. I doubt women and children were as ruthless as Saddam.

Your father meeting a few people that are freindly over there doesn't mean the entire country is happy.

Excuse me, but rigging the Iraqi elections, installing harsh curfews, and using fear in general is controlling a mass of people.

If we leave (which I highly doubt will happen anytime soon.) and they revert back to a radical regime, we just wasted our time over there.

No see, there IS something wrong with invading a soverign country and forcing democracy on a people. Its called imperialism.

 

[White2000GT]

You college kids are always good for a few laughs with your arguments. The fact is the neither of you, or none of us for that matter, can say what EVERY Iraqi does or does not like. That's like trying to say that EVERY American is either for or against the war. Hell, I'm in the Navy and am over here in the Persian Gulf for my fourth deployment since 9/11 and I can't even say for sure what these people want or don't want. The only thing I can tell you is that I do not like being deployed to this region at all. And I am not looking forward to being deployed out here again next year. That's right, I said AGAIN NEXT YEAR. You want my opinion? All the Iraqi's can go fuck themselves. Regardless of what Bush's ulterior motive for lying to the American public to justify our invading Iraq really was, the fact is that we rid this world of a ruthless dictator. But at the same time we have more than overstayed our welcome and now are fighting to control a Civil War that we have NO business being involved in. I am all for the withdrawal of our troops. Why should our men and women continue to put their lives on the line to protect people who are so hell bent on killing each other and anyone else who stands in their way? Bring our fucking troops home NOW! They need to be at home with their families, not facing death on a daily basis.