Martin/Zimmerman-----Poll

[Kakapo Dundee]

Just out of interest, do you dispute that the world is indeed a more civilised place, or would you rather have lived in the 1920's?

 

[All Else Failed]

really? I've used it about four times, all because it annoys you. I don't have a lot of patience for college kids who think they know everything.

Oh, so you debate like a child then. Makes sense.


I'm out of college and I don't think I know everything. Another baseless generalization.

Just out of interest, do you dispute that the world is indeed a more civilised place, or would you rather have lived in the 1920's?

Violent crime in the US has plummeted since the late 90s. It is the lowest it has been in decades. You're exaggerating to a great extent and you're misusing the term "civilised" to try and fit it into your non-existent argument.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Like I said it has gone from he needs to be tried to he needs to be convicted

Quote where anyone has ever posted that.

If there is anybody with a predetermined opinion it would be those like you and John

Common sense dictates that you don't go chasing people down with a gun in a residential neighborhood and confront them. You would have to have one serious case of cranial rectumitus to defend that.

Glad you all are not on the jury as the guy would never have a chance at a fair and impartial jury verdict

If you Zimmerbigots got on the jury you would acquit Zimmerman and convict Martin.

 

[All Else Failed]

If you Zimmerbigots got on the jury you would acquit Zimmerman and convict Martin.

No, actually we wouldn't. If the evidence shows Zimmerman is guilty of murder I'd be totally fine with him serving his sentence. You're interstitially polarizing everyone with your useless "zimmerbot" slurs because you're not interested in any sort of conversation.

 

[Johnfromokc]

No, actually we wouldn't. If the evidence shows Zimmerman is guilty of murder I'd be totally fine with him serving his sentence. You're interstitially polarizing everyone with your useless "zimmerbot" slurs because you're not interested in any sort of conversation.

I'm not interested in engaging in the fucktardery that Zimmerman was justified in pursuing Martin in the first place. You Zimmerman defenders have to seriously twist common sense and reality to come up with the silly shit you all are dreaming up. Chronic Cranial Rectumitus indeed.

 

[All Else Failed]

Following someone is not illegal, nor is asking them what they are doing. So no justification is even needed.


No one is even saying that he was "justified" in the first place.

 

[retro]

No one is saying he shouldn't be held before a jury, so

Actually, The "Man" is saying that he shouldn't have been charged or arrested, let alone face trial.

 

[Tim]

Following someone is not illegal, nor is asking them what they are doing.

You are right, following someone at night is not illegal, but it's not very smart.
Look at it this way, if I were to start following you around a night and it ended up in a confrontation, what do you think the police would conclude when they got there? Would you tell the cops that this guy was following you and you had a right to defend yourself? Or would you just apologize to the guy following you and admit he had the right to do that?

When does it go from following someone you don't know to stalking which is illegal?

Do you have a right to confront some guy that's following you at night?

 

[All Else Failed]

stalking is a pattern of behavior over time, not a one off deal

Do you have a right to confront some guy that's following you at night?

Yes, however, it is not clear who started the physical confrontation.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Violent crime in the US has plummeted since the late 90s. It is the lowest it has been in decades. You're exaggerating to a great extent and you're misusing the term "civilised" to try and fit it into your non-existent argument.

Plummeted? Really? We're still among the highest rates of violent crime in the WORLD:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Homicide

The US homicide rate, which has declined substantially since 1991 from a rate per 100,000 persons of 9.8 to 4.8 in 2010, is still among the highest in the industrialized world. There were 14,748 murders in the United States in 2010[SUP][31][/SUP] (666,160 murders from 1960 to 1996).[SUP][32][/SUP] In 2004, there were 5.5 homicides for every 100,000 persons, roughly three times as high as Canada (1.9) and six times as high as Germany (0.9). A closer look at The National Archive of Criminal Justice Data indicates that per-capita homicide rates over the last 30 years on average of major cities, New Orleans' average per capita homicide rate of 52 murders per 100,000 people overall (1980–2009) ranks highest among major U.S. cities[SUP][33][/SUP][SUP][34][/SUP] Most industrialized countries had homicide rates below the 2.5 mark.[SUP][35][/SUP][SUP][36][/SUP]

 

[All Else Failed]

All crime across the board, including violent crime, is going down:


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0524/US-crime-rate-is-down-six-key-reasons

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-09-19/fbi-violent-crime-down/50464546/1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13799616

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/256272/unemployment-goes-and-crime-goes-down-duncan-currie




And 14,748 murders out of a population of 314,000,000+ people is fucking nothing. More people die in car crashes each year.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Oh, so you debate like a child then. Makes sense.


I'm out of college and I don't think I know everything. Another baseless generalization.

Just out of interest, do you dispute that the world is indeed a more civilised place, or would you rather have lived in the 1920's?

Violent crime in the US has plummeted since the late 90s. It is the lowest it has been in decades. You're exaggerating to a great extent and you're misusing the term "civilised" to try and fit it into your non-existent argument.

Doesn't really answer my question.Nevermind.I'll ask an adult later.

 

[All Else Failed]

It totally depends on what you mean by "civilised", though. You can approach this question from many different angles. One could possibly argue that the 1920s were far more civilized than today.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

So history was not your college major?

 

[All Else Failed]

No but it is a great interest of mine. I see that you're not willing to actually discuss it, though.


"Civilised" is so fucking ambiguous in many ways.


You're falling into the "progression" fallacy in which just because time goes forward and some new cultural bells and whistles come about we're somehow "better off" or more "civilised".


Well I'm here to tell you that our recent modernity is probably one of the worst culminations of culture, technology and human spirit that has taken place in a very long time.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

How quaint and naive.

I'm more than happy to discuss history with you. Just try to keep your mind on the topic.

Even in the most backward of places, the notion that one skin colour is somehow superior to others is no longer tolerated.
The notion that the average Joe has a right to wander up to a stranger and based on their skin colour, treat them as 'inferior' or 'guilty until proven innocent' has passed into historical oblivion. You talk passionately about a 'lynch mob' mentality against Zimmerman, and yet, in truth there's nothing more than words. As a keen student of history, you will doubtless fully understand what a 'lynching' usually entailed.

A crime was committed by a 'Negro' as they were commonly referred to back then.
He/she was arrested and held in custody pending trial by the appropriate law enforcement authorities.
An armed mob would storm the jail,often with the passive assistance of the local law enforcers.
The alleged offender would then be dragged off and summarily executed in front of a large crowd, and photographs of the event would be distributed as souvenir postcards.


I can't think of any similar cases in the last fifty years. There's absolutely no evidence of it in the Zimmerman case.
Yes, a few vocal racists have posted angry comments on Facebook. We have no way of knowing whether they are adults or just loudmouthed wannabes. Zimmerman is in hiding. Fair enough - he shot a man in dubious circumstances. The police have failed to protect him by keeping him in custody. If there is no evidence of malice in his actions, he will not be found guilty of murder. Guilty or not, he's not a victim of anything other than his own poor judgement.

The majority of civilised people understand that the right to 'bear arms' and the right to 'stand your ground' are constitutional and legal protections. Most of us would question whether they are adequate excuse to go out hunting for troublemakers and shooting them if they resist. It's up to the courts to decide precisely where Zimmerman's intentions sit on that sliding scale.

 

[Johnfromokc]

All crime across the board, including violent crime, is going down:


And 14,748 murders out of a population of 314,000,000+ people is fucking nothing. More people die in car crashes each year.

We have the highest crime rate on the planet. You're trying to make chicken salad out of chickenshit. We have huge fucked up problems here compared to the rest of the industrialized world, but you like so many Americans are too brainwashed to admit it.

 

[The Man]

Remember people...next time someone has you down and is smashing your head into the sidewalk...you dont have the right to defend yourself or you will be arrested and charged with murder...ruining your life and costing you the price of a house in legal defense.


Also remember boys and girls.....if you see the watchman out on the property...its perfectly fine to go smash his head into the sidewalk.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Losing a brawl that you started? Shoot him!

 

[Johnfromokc]

Remember people...next time someone has you down and is smashing your head into the sidewalk...you dont have the right to defend yourself or you will be arrested and charged with murder...ruining your life and costing you the price of a house in legal defense.


Also remember boys and girls.....if you see the watchman out on the property...its perfectly fine to go smash his head into the sidewalk.

And remember - when you're a bigot and you know it, make shit up to defend the killer of a black minor. No reasoning or common sense required.

Rock on Zimmerbigots. :rockon: