Mandatory drug test

[Codrus]

Instead of drug tests, I think they should be put on mandatory birth control. You shouldn't be allowed to reproduce if you aren't supporting yourself already.

repped....:thumbup

 

[Minor Axis]

Instead of drug tests, I think they should be put on mandatory birth control. You shouldn't be allowed to reproduce if you aren't supporting yourself already.

I agree, but I think it should be done so it is reversible just in case the individual gets their act together. I think in some old European Societies, people did not have children out of wedlock and as a male you had to reach a state of financial independence before you could get a wedding license.

 

[JanieDough]

I have a lot to say. Bookmarking it for when I have my computer.

 

[Accountable]

I have a lot to say. Bookmarking it for when I have my computer.

opcorn2:

 

[Peter Parka]

Instead of drug tests, I think they should be put on mandatory birth control. You shouldn't be allowed to reproduce if you aren't supporting yourself already.

So lets look at this statement sensibly. First you would have to have a long legal battle against people who will rightfully claim their human rights are being violated which you will loose. If say by some complete miracle you did win, you'd then have to shell out millions on birth control. Then, how would you ensure people took it? Then if people did have babies while on benefits, how could you prove that they didn't take it? No birth control is infallable. And say you did take their benifits off them, this would just force people into crime and then cost even more locking them up. Anyway, what would you do about the people on benifits who already have kids? Thake them off them and put them in care? I'm really having trouble seeing how not having a job temporarily makes you an unfit parent.
A knee jerk statement which makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Accountable]

Instead of drug tests, I think they should be put on mandatory birth control. You shouldn't be allowed to reproduce if you aren't supporting yourself already.

I agree, but I think it should be done so it is reversible just in case the individual gets their act together. I think in some old European Societies, people did not have children out of wedlock and as a male you had to reach a state of financial independence before you could get a wedding license.

Equal Opportunity Authoritarianism.

 

[Panacea]

So lets look at this statement sensibly. First you would have to have a long legal battle against people who will rightfully claim their human rights are being violated which you will loose. If say by some complete miracle you did win, you'd then have to shell out millions on birth control. Then, how would you ensure people took it? Then if people did have babies while on benefits, how could you prove that they didn't take it? No birth control is infallable. And say you did take their benifits off them, this would just force people into crime and then cost even more locking them up. Anyway, what would you do about the people on benifits who already have kids? Thake them off them and put them in care? I'm really having trouble seeing how not having a job temporarily makes you an unfit parent.
A knee jerk statement which makes no sense whatsoever.

Poor people are like dogs, anyway, right? Better working citizens technically "own" them, so we should be able to say when/if they can reproduce.
:sarcasm

 

[Minor Axis]

Equal Opportunity Authoritarianism.

Your blinders make it very difficult for you to respond effectively. This has nothing to do with your ability to pop out kids. If it has to be spelled out for you, the issue is doing this while spending a lifetime on the dole.

However I thought the days of "lifetime on the dole" were over? No?

 

[Tim]

These discussions about welfare perfectly illustrate the effectiveness of the right wing, ie Ronald Reagan when the term "Welfare Queen" was coined to paint a picture of a lazy black woman living off the government dole popping out kids and doing drugs.
Just admit it, what type of person do you think of when welfare is mentioned?

The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of welfare recipients are white single mothers who only collect for an average of 2 months before getting out of the system. Women who are recently divorced who need help transitioning. And recently it's people who have found themselves without a job in this crappy economy.
And you will find that most of the people on welfare or food stamps are embarrassed and get off the system a quickly as possible...

So yes, let's kick these people when their down. Let's get them to piss in a cup to make them feel even lower than they already are. Let's force them to swallow birth control pills everyday. Lets do this because a very small percentage of people abuse the system. Lets not try to clean up those who are abusing the system, let's punish everyone else.

 

[Minor Axis]

These discussions about welfare perfectly illustrate the effectiveness of the right wing, ie Ronald Reagan when the term "Welfare Queen" was coined to paint a picture of a lazy black woman living off the government dole popping out kids and doing drugs.
Just admit it, what type of person do you think of when welfare is mentioned?

The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of welfare recipients are white single mothers who only collect for an average of 2 months before getting out of the system. Women who are recently divorced who need help transitioning. And recently it's people who have found themselves without a job in this crappy economy.
And you will find that most of the people on welfare or food stamps are embarrassed and get off the system a quickly as possible...

So yes, let's kick these people when their down. Let's get them to piss in a cup to make them feel even lower than they already are. Let's force them to swallow birth control pills everyday. Lets do this because a very small percentage of people abuse the system. Lets not try to clean up those who are abusing the system, let's punish everyone else.

I have no problem with leaving short term welfare participants alone. Then we can define "short term". So the question becomes is this a means of helping individuals get back on their feet or is it indoctrinating them into a way of living? I would argue against the latter as I believe many people are assisted during a sliding economy. However, my guess is that most of the conservatives would argue the latter. In any case, my premise would be if you spend years within the system, you should not be creating more mouths to feed. How to adminsiter this standard could be tricky though.

 

[Peter Parka]

I still haven't heard a sensible answer as to why people who are temporarily not working are bad parents and how you think you can realistically force someone not to have children.

 

[Panacea]

I still haven't heard a sensible answer as to why people who are temporarily not working are bad parents and how you think you can realistically force someone not to have children.

I agree that it would be ideal for only the financially stable to bring children into the world (as I believe poverty has been shown to hamper the futures of children greatly), it's not reasonable to impose breeding restrictions on humans. I don't know where the middle ground is, in my naivete I think education is all that can be done (offer free condoms to people on welfare, educate them about the costs of parenthood) idk.

 

[Tim]

I have no problem with leaving short term welfare participants alone. Then we can define "short term". So the question becomes is this a means of helping individuals get back on their feet or is it indoctrinating them into a way of living? I would argue against the latter as I believe many people are assisted during a sliding economy. However, my guess is that most of the conservatives would argue the latter. In any case, my premise would be if you spend years within the system, you should not be creating more mouths to feed. How to adminsiter this standard could be tricky though.

Two years.

Two years is the max you can be on welfare... so how is that enabling anyone?

And with that welfare check comes responsibilities that you MUST complete. ie looking for a job, job training, education, etc.

And for those who wish to drug test everyone before giving out a check... did you know that part of the application process, candidate are asked questions and screened for drug and alcohol abuse?

 

[HK]

You can educate people and give out free contraception all you want, but some people will have babies because that's what they want, not because it's a mistake they followed through or they're too stupid to understand.


I think is probably especially true for those who didn't grow up with financial stability - they're less likely to see the need compared to someone who grew up in a financially settled home.


And if you know you're likely going to be in a low-paid job or no job at all for large portions of your life due to poor choices, poor circumstances or just extreme bad luck, why would you put off having for kids to wait for ideal circumstances that aren't likely to be possible anytime soon.

 

[Dana]

I still haven't heard a sensible answer as to why people who are temporarily not working are bad parents and how you think you can realistically force someone not to have children.

People who have children who are temporarily out of work with children are not bad parents. people who have 5 or 6 children and continue to mooch off the system without even attempting to look for work are the ones that need to be told they can't have anymore children. did you read that link I dropped about the food stamp fraud that happened here a few years ago?

 

[retro]

Two years.

Two years is the max you can be on welfare... so how is that enabling anyone?

And with that welfare check comes responsibilities that you MUST complete. ie looking for a job, job training, education, etc.

And for those who wish to drug test everyone before giving out a check... did you know that part of the application process, candidate are asked questions and screened for drug and alcohol abuse?

Because I'm sure that nobody ever lies on those questions. :24:

That being said, when I was on unemployment in 2004, I wasn't screened for drug and alcohol abuse, hell that wasn't even on the application I filled out. I'm sure things could have changed since then, but probably not significantly.

 

[Dana]

You can educate people and give out free contraception all you want, but some people will have babies because that's what they want, not because it's a mistake they followed through or they're too stupid to understand.


I think is probably especially true for those who didn't grow up with financial stability - they're less likely to see the need compared to someone who grew up in a financially settled home.


And if you know you're likely going to be in a low-paid job or no job at all for large portions of your life due to poor choices, poor circumstances or just extreme bad luck, why would you put off having for kids to wait for ideal circumstances that aren't likely to be possible anytime soon.

People actually reproduce so they can stay on welfare...

 

[Tim]

Because I'm sure that nobody ever lies on those questions. :24:

That being said, when I was on unemployment in 2004, I wasn't screened for drug and alcohol abuse, hell that wasn't even on the application I filled out. I'm sure things could have changed since then, but probably not significantly.

What does unemployment insurance have anything to do with it? That's not welfare.

Who the hell cares if you are a drug addict or alcoholic if you are getting an UI check???

It's like saying they should screen you for drugs and alcohol before you can get an insurance check if your house burned down. You paid into it and if you need to use the insurance then you should damn well get it.

 

[Tim]

People actually reproduce so they can stay on welfare...

Show me some statistics that give percentages. How many people do this Dana? 1%? 10% 90% How many?

 

[Dana]

Show me some statistics that give percentages. How many people do this Dana? 1%? 10% 90% How many?

Does it matter how many? Not in my opinion.