late term abortions..

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All Else Failed

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So it is easier to just kill the child instead of taking the hard road and trying to find a better home for him/her. Gee how convenient.
Not easy, not convenient. None of this is easy, its not like you're handing out snow cones, here. What I am saying is, is that some people go through life in that kind of situation (for example) and wish for death daily. Trust me, I know people like this.
 
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gLing

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Not easy, not convenient. None of this is easy, its not like you're handing out snow cones, here. What I am saying is, is that some people go through life in that kind of situation (for example) and wish for death daily. Trust me, I know people like this.
But it is a much easier out then finding a home for the child. Hence it is more convenient for you to just murder the child then it is to help the child.
And I bet for every example of a person born to bad parents who wish for death daily I can find one that has a great and wonderful life.
 

BreakfastSurreal

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what i dont understand is why someone would pay thousands of dollars for such a late abortion, that puts their own life at risk...just to go into labor ANYWAY and deliver a baby...seriously why would anyone make that choice? it doesnt make a bit of sense.
 

gLing

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AEF has a point...I think it's sick and disgusting, but the fetus really doesn't have any rights until it is out of the womb...Morally it may be messed up, but really based legally it should technically be allowable...
That isn't true, an unborn child has many legal rights. The problem is in our backward society a woman has the right to murder that child for whatever reason she sees fit. The reason this is allowed is because the courts do not see a fetus as a human being when it comes to a woman making such a choice. They are under the ridiculous impression that when a fetus passes through the cervix on its way to being born, life is magically breathed into it and thus making it a human being.

Ironically enough in 20 states there are laws to where if somebody murders a pregnant woman then he will be charged with two murders, murder of the woman and murder of the unborn child.
 

iced_shrapnel

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That isn't true, an unborn child has many legal rights. The problem is in our backward society a woman has the right to murder that child for whatever reason she sees fit. The reason this is allowed is because the courts do not see a fetus as a human being when it comes to a woman making such a choice. They are under the ridiculous impression that when a fetus passes through the cervix on its way to being born, life is magically breathed into it and thus making it a human being.

Ironically enough in 20 states there are laws to where if somebody murders a pregnant woman then he will be charged with two murders, murder of the woman and murder of the unborn child.

Well if someone murders a pregnant woman, thats different. The mother had no control over that. Until the fetus is out of the womb, it is a PART of the mother...its physically connected to her...therefore she has the decision of what to do with it
 

gLing

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Well if someone murders a pregnant woman, thats different. The mother had no control over that. Until the fetus is out of the womb, it is a PART of the mother...its physically connected to her...therefore she has the decision of what to do with it
It is irrelevant who murders the child. Why is it murder if somebody else does it as opposed to the mother choosing to do it? In both cases the unborn child had no say so. The fact is in those cases a criminal court recognizes the child as a living human being otherwise you can not charge somebody for murder if who they kill is not considered a human being. On the other hand a court does not recognize the child as a human being if the mother decides to kill him/her.
In some states a mother can file a wrongful death lawsuit against a doctor if he makes a mistake that causes her unborn child to die.

So why is it in some cases it is perfectly acceptable to treat the death of an unborn child as murder or manslaughter but if the mother chooses to kill the child then it is her "right"?
In the case of late term abortions the fact the child is connected to the mother is irrelevant since in many cases a child can survive outside of the womb before it's time to be born hence it is a human being.

In other words using the argument that unborn children have no rights in your support of child murder is wrong because they do in fact have legal rights.
 

iced_shrapnel

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It is irrelevant who murders the child. Why is it murder if somebody else does it as opposed to the mother choosing to do it? In both cases the unborn child had no say so. The fact is in those cases a criminal court recognizes the child as a living human being otherwise you can not charge somebody for murder if who they kill is not considered a human being. On the other hand a court does not recognize the child as a human being if the mother decides to kill him/her.
In some states a mother can file a wrongful death lawsuit against a doctor if he makes a mistake that causes her unborn child to die.

So why is it in some cases it is perfectly acceptable to treat the death of an unborn child as murder or manslaughter but if the mother chooses to kill the child then it is her "right"?
In the case of late term abortions the fact the child is connected to the mother is irrelevant since in many cases a child can survive outside of the womb before it's time to be born hence it is a human being.

In other words using the argument that unborn children have no rights in your support of child murder is wrong because they do in fact have legal rights.

I think you've missed the point. The reason it's ok if the mother does it is because the mother is the one who has the choice, not the fetus...the fetus is nothing more than A PART OF HER until it comes out. If she cut off her arm, no one would say anything...except maybe that she is nuts. Its no different. If the doctor messes up, the mother CAN file a suit, but she doesn't have to...thats on her...if she doesn't care that the fetus died, or doesn't feel the need to attack the doctor for it, she doesn't have to, because it is HER CHOICE. The "unborn child" doesn't have a say in whether it lives or dies, not while it is a physical part of the mother, therefore, until it exits the womb, its under mommy's jurisdiction...no matter how wrong it may be to you. Thats why I as a person is totally against abortion...I couldn't do it, I would feel as though that were my child, but it is not my say if another woman chooses to go through with it. The fetus is a physical part of her, therefore under her power.
 

gLing

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I think you've missed the point. The reason it's ok if the mother does it is because the mother is the one who has the choice, not the fetus...the fetus is nothing more than A PART OF HER until it comes out.
You are kidding me right? It is a HUMAN BEING not just a piece of the mother like her arm or something. If what you said was true then a person can be charged with murder if they cut your arm off. lol This complete disregard for human life is astounding.
 

iced_shrapnel

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You are kidding me right? It is a HUMAN BEING not just a piece of the mother like her arm or something. If what you said was true then a person can be charged with murder if they cut your arm off. lol This complete disregard for human life is astounding.

Its just that you have to classify it as a human somehow, and the most logical is to do that when it is no longer a part of something else...i.e. not in the womb. Therefore the person shouldn't be charged for cutting an arm off...that wouldn't make sense. They aren't killing a person...and a fetus isn't technically a person. You gotta remember, I don't agree with this at all personally, but based on solid fact and reason, thats how it is, no matter how sad.


How then do you look at mentally unstable patients (mentally ill, comatose, ect.) who have a power of attorney that can determine whether or not to "pull the plug?" this person who is not capable of making the decision to live or die has had their life placed in another person's hands (often not of their choosing, sometimes the next of kin is appointed if its too late for the person to choose one...) so is this "murder" too, or is it, much like abortion, the closest person available to make such a decision? I still think it's worse for a child to grow up in a terrible environment than to be left without having to be subjected to such torment.

I grew up well because my parents wanted me. Unfortunately not all kids are that lucky, and if they are unfortunate enough to be in that situation, maybe abortion would have been a better choice...that "child" may have a chance to "start over" then...maybe its soul, or spirit, or whatever you want to call it can move on and inhabit the fetus of a child that will be born and be loved. And if that's too far of a reach for you, than what do you say about the poor kids that are tortured by parents? would you rather have not started at all or grow up in a life of pain and torment? I sure as hell wouldn't choose that one.
 

gLing

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Its just that you have to classify it as a human somehow, and the most logical is to do that when it is no longer a part of something else...i.e. not in the womb. Therefore the person shouldn't be charged for cutting an arm off...that wouldn't make sense. They aren't killing a person...and a fetus isn't technically a person. You gotta remember, I don't agree with this at all personally, but based on solid fact and reason, thats how it is, no matter how sad.
Yet people get charged with murder for killing a an unborn child hence it is a human being not just another part of the body like a limb as you tried to pass the child off as.
The only way a person can get charged with murder is if they kill another human being. Under the law that is what murder is. If a fetus was not a person then you would not be charged with two counts of murder if you killed a pregnant woman.

How then do you look at mentally unstable patients (mentally ill, comatose, ect.) who have a power of attorney that can determine whether or not to "pull the plug?" this person who is not capable of making the decision to live or die has had their life placed in another person's hands (often not of their choosing, sometimes the next of kin is appointed if its too late for the person to choose one...) so is this "murder" too, or is it, much like abortion, the closest person available to make such a decision? I still think it's worse for a child to grow up in a terrible environment than to be left without having to be subjected to such torment.
Bad comparisons.
I look at them as human beings. Now if your are talking about a brain dead person, as in a person with zero brain activity, then they are already dead. Their life is gone only the body is kept alive. Now if they are not brain dead and are still alive but have to have a machine to keep them alive then yes it would be murder to just walk in and pull the plug.
And in many cases there is prior agreement about wanting to stay on the machine or not.

I grew up well because my parents wanted me. Unfortunately not all kids are that lucky, and if they are unfortunate enough to be in that situation, maybe abortion would have been a better choice...that "child" may have a chance to "start over" then...maybe its soul, or spirit, or whatever you want to call it can move on and inhabit the fetus of a child that will be born and be loved.
LMAO you can't seriously be telling me it would be ok to kill a child because it MAY reincarnate into a better situation. :willy_nilly:
And if that's too far of a reach for you, than what do you say about the poor kids that are tortured by parents?
I would say get that child away from the abusive parents, not kill them.
would you rather have not started at all or grow up in a life of pain and torment? I sure as hell wouldn't choose that one.
I would want the chance at life why? Because nothing is set in stone or guaranteed. You can't kill an unborn child just because you think it will grow up in an abusive environment.
 

iced_shrapnel

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Yet people get charged with murder for killing a an unborn child hence it is a human being not just another part of the body like a limb as you tried to pass the child off as.
The only way a person can get charged with murder is if they kill another human being. Under the law that is what murder is. If a fetus was not a person then you would not be charged with two counts of murder if you killed a pregnant woman.


Bad comparisons.
I look at them as human beings. Now if your are talking about a brain dead person, as in a person with zero brain activity, then they are already dead. Their life is gone only the body is kept alive. Now if they are not brain dead and are still alive but have to have a machine to keep them alive then yes it would be murder to just walk in and pull the plug.
And in many cases there is prior agreement about wanting to stay on the machine or not.


LMAO you can't seriously be telling me it would be ok to kill a child because it MAY reincarnate into a better situation. :willy_nilly:

I would say get that child away from the abusive parents, not kill them.

I would want the chance at life why? Because nothing is set in stone or guaranteed. You can't kill an unborn child just because you think it will grow up in an abusive environment.

I just don't like the term "kill" being thrown around. I just don't understand how it's not a part of the mother when it is attatched to her physically, feeds off her, breathes through her, eats what she eats, drinks what she drinks, and inhales what she inhales...it doesn't make sense. And as for the first part of what you wrote, the laws need to be revised then...But technically it still makes sense the way it stands....

No matter what, this is a debate that can never be solved...I just think that what people do needs to be in their hands, not that of the government. If its wrong, it's only on the moral standpoint, and people should be accountable for their own morality...
 

debbie t

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I'm for it.


*silently bows out of thread*

i actually thoight this comment was quite funny,and my response to it asking where you had gone was also a joke ron ,it was friendly banter not anger

Rights are facts and are recognized by society as being so, so me stating facts and rights isn't me being "wrong". Its merely stating the rights that are available to women.

yes these are the right of women and i would be the first to advocate womens rights,however in the UK the unborn child has more rights than in the US it would seem

Sorry i had to go eat some babies, because you know, thats what I do.

dont be so daft:)

Do you really think I want babies to be killed? I don't. I just think that its a woman's choice.

no i dont think you do ,but i think your opinions although bsed on facts as you see them do not take into consideration life experience..ie pregnancy and parenthood and profesional experience to name a few

personally, I don't agree with late term abortions, but we're not talking about what I want.

late term is after 24 weeks here and the labour party are looking into reducing it to 12 weeks,so what we want and what we get may change for the better

but really, it is AEF. We do know what he is thinking. He is thinking "omg I'm gonna get everyone sooo riled up by playing the devil's advocate"

i do think you were playing devils advocate by the way you made you first post,i am not getting cross with you at all ,if you werent here sometimes ther would be no debate and at times i am in full agrement with some of your opinions
No its doing the child a favor. There are fates worse than death.

true which is why i would also advocate a terminally ill persond right to choose death,however that is still illegal here in the UK.i have also seen a post on this forum calling this a sin and that a person doing this would go to hell.but yes a painful and slow death or loss of all abilities which we are lucky enough to take for granted is worth than death.

what i dont understand is why someone would pay thousands of dollars for such a late abortion, that puts their own life at risk...just to go into labor ANYWAY and deliver a baby...seriously why would anyone make that choice? it doesnt make a bit of sense.

neither do i ..we are talking about very late abortion here ,when a few weeks would see a perfect child born naturally ,even being born by c section at such late satges would produce aliving and viable human being

I just don't like the term "kill" being thrown around. I just don't understand how it's not a part of the mother when it is attatched to her physically, feeds off her, breathes through her, eats what she eats, drinks what she drinks, and inhales what she inhales...it doesn't make sense. And as for the first part of what you wrote, the laws need to be revised then...But technically it still makes sense the way it stands....

No matter what, this is a debate that can never be solved...I just think that what people do needs to be in their hands, not that of the government. If its wrong, it's only on the moral standpoint, and people should be accountable for their own morality...

i like the tem being thrown around here ,since only a few hours ago people here were appalled by the video of a puppy being thrown off a cliff
 

debbie t

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The launch of the Alive and Kicking campaign [1] at the Labour Party Conference in Brighton on 26 September brought together a growing alliance of human rights groups formed in response to mounting evidence of growing public support for changes in UK abortion legislation. In a public poll carried out for The Daily Telegraph earlier this year, only 27% of those questioned believed that the current 24 week legal limit for abortion should be retained. 58% of those questioned by YouGov said abortions should not be carried out after the 20th week of pregnancy, with women more likely than men to favour tighter controls. One in three women favoured a limit on terminations of 12 weeks or under.[2]
Terminations were originally allowed up to 28 weeks of pregnancy when abortion was first legalised in 1967 and, although the limit was reduced to 24 weeks in 1990, there are now calls to reduce this further. Although the vast majority of the 180,000 abortions that took place in England and Wales in 2004 took place before 13 weeks, 124 were carried out in the 24th week. In addition, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 permits abortion at any stage of pregnancy where there is a ‘substantial risk’ of ‘serious handicap’and over 100 such procedures take place each year after this limit. Senior politicians, including Michael Howard, have called for an overhaul in abortion legislation.[3] Indeed, in light of the YouGov poll, Liberal Democrat MP Evan Harris called for the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee and its equivalent in the House of Lords to hold a joint investigation into the case for cutting the 24-week limit.[4] However, although Prime Minister Tony Blair has previously hinted that he might consider re-examining limits for late-term abortions, Downing Street later stressed that he was not signaling any government law plan.[5]
Calls for a reduction in the abortion limit have been driven at least in part by new technology such as 3D ultrasound, which provides detailed colour images of the unborn child. The new scanners, developed by Professor Stuart Campbell and colleagues at London’s Create Health Clinic have demonstrated fetuses at twelve weeks stretching, kicking and making complex movements. At 14-15 weeks they were seen sucking their thumbs and yawning. By 18 weeks they were opening and shutting their eyes and by 26 weeks they were scratching their noses, smiling and frowning.[6] Conventional ultrasound produces only 2D images of the developing fetus.
As well as being the upper limit for abortions, the 24th week of pregnancy is traditionally regarded as the point of viability, the time in the pregnancy after which the unborn baby could theoretically live outside its mother’s womb if it was born early. However, some argue that this is more a measure of the sophistication of our neonatal care, and over the past 20 years the success of this specialty has increased dramatically.[7] In many centres it is almost routine for babies born preterm at 24 weeks’gestation - four months early - to survive with good clinical input. An electronic paper published in the journal Pediatrics last year reported that 66% and 81% of those infants born at 23 and 24 weeks of gestation respectively survived to be discharged home.[8]
Whilst a reduction in the abortion limit appears unlikely to happen in the immediate future, it is perhaps ironic that one of those leading calls for the limit to be reduced to 22 weeks is Lord Steel, the architect of Britain’s original abortion laws.[9]
However, it is worth noting the significant burden of lasting neurodevelopmental difficulties in this group. Many thousands of pounds are invested in the intensive care of each of these children, as well as their clinical follow-up, and often their need for special education.Yet at the same time, late abortions are taking place in the UK and occasionally result in live births; these children receive no care or investment of any kind at present and are simply left to die. In July 2004, the British Medical Association’s (BMA) annual representative meeting (ARM) called on the NHS, the General Medical Council and other professional bodies to work together to ensure that babies born alive as a result of a termination receive the same full neonatal care as that available to other babies.[10]
In view of this, it seems paradoxical that the same meeting in 2005 overwhelmingly rejected a call to reduce the legal time limit for abortion. As reported in the summer edition of Triple Helix, members voted by three to one to maintain the present limits, not only flying – so it would seem – in the face of public opinion, but also denying the evidence of countless neonatal studies: senior doctors at the conference reportedly told delegates that there had been no change in neonatal survival rates in recent years.[11]
The abortion debate is one of the oldest in bioethics, and dialogue has traditionally proved difficult with both parties seeming to come from irreconcilable positions. Whilst it’s easy to get bogged down by academic arguments about when life begins, the essential nature of the fetus does not change at viability (or the current abortion limit), and the results of the Telegraph poll suggest that the public realise this. If this is the case, we have a rare opportunity to influence this difficult area. The question is, what will we do about it?
 

debbie t

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please do not look at these pics if you do not want to see the results of late term abortion.

when i trained as a mental handicap we were taught a great deal about the nitty gritty of this practice and shown in graffic detail photos such as these ,,,why because we were training to care for human beings who were deemed useless to society and unwanted

Late-Term Abortions
 

gLing

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please do not look at these pics if you do not want to see the results of late term abortion.

when i trained as a mental handicap we were taught a great deal about the nitty gritty of this practice and shown in graffic detail photos such as these ,,,why because we were training to care for human beings who were deemed useless to society and unwanted

Late-Term Abortions
I doubt AEF or iced_shrapnel would be too upset over those photos. According to one the child has no rights so it is perfectly ok to slaughter her/him at the discretion of the mother and according to the other the child is nothing more than part of the mother like an arm or your big toe.
 

debbie t

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I doubt AEF or iced_shrapnel would be too upset over those photos. According to one the child has no rights so it is perfectly ok to slaughter her/him at the discretion of the mother and according to the other the child is nothing more than part of the mother like an arm or your big toe.

i find these quite disturbing..and we are talking about even later abortions than these here
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when we here about 200,000 people being macheted in africa some people are the first to be up in arms,when the tutus got pregnant women ,bet on the sex of the unborn child then chopped the woman open to see who won the bet..we were all appalled and disgusted and yet we then argue that its ok to do a similar thing...i just find it very difficult to understand why:(

oh its about the rights of the idiot who couldnt decide to terminate till she was about to give birth..now that is political correctness gone mad
 

juggler

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oh its about the rights of the idiot who couldnt decide to terminate till she was about to give birth..now that is political correctness gone mad

If someone decided to cut off their arm because they didn't want it anymore they'd get sectioned! Why is it they don't for late term abortions??
 

Keight

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Its disgusting! past a certain age abortion should not even be considered it kinda makes me sick to even think about it
 
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