Jesus Christ. Man or myth?

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groundpounder

groundpounder

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Peter Parka said:
It's not me under a false account, honest!!!:24::24::24:
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perhaps not. perhaps so. You are the only one that I know of that could not for the longest time exercise enough native intelligence to properly address me.:D Now there are two. Coincidence? :ninja




Many people (and not just "believers") use the same logic in their non-faith based belief the Jesus was a real person as you do in your belief that the Pharoahs existed
Our knowledge of ancient history comes from the records of people who were there at the time, those who saw it, those that lived it. In the case of Jesus, that didn't happen. Not one contemporaneous historian mentions him. The only source of information we have for Jesus is the Gospel. The Gospels were not written by Jesus' followers but by unknown authors decades after the events are alleged to have happened.
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And your knowledge that the Pharoahs existed does NOT come from the records of people who were there at the time. Your understanding that the Pharoahs existed comes from centuries upon centuries of passed on oral tradition, interpretations of translated text, countless eidtorial revisions of same, generations of interpretations of hieroglyphics (how can one be sure of THAT?!) of people who were NOT there but centuries later are trying to interpret the meaning of drawings, inscriptions and oral traditions of the people who WERE there. So if you think the history books that you read are a verbatim account of ancient Egypt and NOT an interpretation of someone else, you're kidding yourself. So to use that as the basis of your belief in one and not the other is asinine.

There were those who recorded His existence who were there, saw it and lived it, and these things people, secular and nonsecular, believe. There are other sources (noted) that mention His existence. The Bible is by far not the only reference.

In 2,000 years, if the human race is still here, people will question the occurence of WWII, the assassination of JFK, and maybe even if the United States of America was really a world power and the most advanced civilization, ala the Egyptians, the Romans or the Greeks.

What you have at the end of the day is faith. In anything. And everything. In all actuality, you have faith that ancient Egypt existed. Because you choose to believe what you read. You were not there, the books that you read were not written by those who were there. It's an interpretation of some archaic historical record, prone to human error and human bias.

But you believe. And I say good for you.

And I believe that Jesus Christ was real. And hundreds of billions of human beings have also in the last 2,000 years. How could one person - ONE SINGULAR HUMAN BEING - inspire that much faith and that much belief and that large of a following without being who He said He was? Religious zealots come and go, a crackpot here and a crackpot there. Littered all over recorded history.

Why and how did this ONE MAN inspire a following that trumps them all? I know my answer to that question: because He was who He said He was. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. ;)
 
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pladecalvo

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groundpounder said:
Many people (and not just "believers") use the same logic in their non-faith based belief the Jesus was a real person as you do in your belief that the Pharoahs existedAnd your knowledge that the Pharoahs existed does NOT come from the records of people who were there at the time. Your understanding that the Pharoahs existed comes from centuries upon centuries of passed on oral tradition, interpretations of translated text, countless eidtorial revisions of same, generations of interpretations of hieroglyphics (how can one be sure of THAT?!) of people who were NOT there but centuries later are trying to interpret the meaning of drawings, inscriptions and oral traditions of the people who WERE there. So if you think the history books that you read are a verbatim account of ancient Egypt and NOT an interpretation of someone else, you're kidding yourself. So to use that as the basis of your belief in one and not the other is asinine.
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If I see bear crap in the woods it's a safe bet to say that bears exist. When I see artefacts from ancient Egypt, it's a safe bet to say ancient Egyptians existed.

There were those who recorded His existence who were there, saw it and lived it, and these things people, secular and nonsecular, believe.
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There is no secular recording from people who saw him. There aren't even religious recordings from people who saw him. If you think there is then produce it.

There are other sources (noted) that mention His existence. The Bible is by far not the only reference.
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There are sources that mention the existence of Zeus, Hercules and a thousand other gods too but we don't accept those sources as evidence for the existence of those gods.

And I believe that Jesus Christ was real. And hundreds of billions of human beings have also in the last 2,000 years
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. Hundreds of billions of people have believed in thousands of other gods too. Does that make those gods true? If longevity is proof of existence, why aren't you worshipping some of the pre-Christianity gods that some people still worship today?


How could one person - ONE SINGULAR HUMAN BEING - inspire that much faith and that much belief and that large of a following without being who He said He was?
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How could Brahma or Zeus have done the same without being who they say they are?

Why and how did this ONE MAN inspire a following that trumps them all?
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He didn't trump them all! Only 33% of the world believes in your Jesus so 67% believe in other or no gods. So if an appeal to numbers is evidence for existence then I'm afraid you loose.
 
All Else Failed

All Else Failed

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groundpounder said:
perhaps not. perhaps so. You are the only one that I know of that could not for the longest time exercise enough native intelligence to properly address me.:D Now there are two. Coincidence? :ninja




Many people (and not just "believers") use the same logic in their non-faith based belief the Jesus was a real person as you do in your belief that the Pharoahs existedAnd your knowledge that the Pharoahs existed does NOT come from the records of people who were there at the time. Your understanding that the Pharoahs existed comes from centuries upon centuries of passed on oral tradition, interpretations of translated text, countless eidtorial revisions of same, generations of interpretations of hieroglyphics (how can one be sure of THAT?!) of people who were NOT there but centuries later are trying to interpret the meaning of drawings, inscriptions and oral traditions of the people who WERE there. So if you think the history books that you read are a verbatim account of ancient Egypt and NOT an interpretation of someone else, you're kidding yourself. So to use that as the basis of your belief in one and not the other is asinine.

There were those who recorded His existence who were there, saw it and lived it, and these things people, secular and nonsecular, believe. There are other sources (noted) that mention His existence. The Bible is by far not the only reference.

In 2,000 years, if the human race is still here, people will question the occurence of WWII, the assassination of JFK, and maybe even if the United States of America was really a world power and the most advanced civilization, ala the Egyptians, the Romans or the Greeks.

What you have at the end of the day is faith. In anything. And everything. In all actuality, you have faith that ancient Egypt existed. Because you choose to believe what you read. You were not there, the books that you read were not written by those who were there. It's an interpretation of some archaic historical record, prone to human error and human bias.

But you believe. And I say good for you.

And I believe that Jesus Christ was real. And hundreds of billions of human beings have also in the last 2,000 years. How could one person - ONE SINGULAR HUMAN BEING - inspire that much faith and that much belief and that large of a following without being who He said He was? Religious zealots come and go, a crackpot here and a crackpot there. Littered all over recorded history.

Why and how did this ONE MAN inspire a following that trumps them all? I know my answer to that question: because He was who He said He was. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. ;)
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we have written records and physical evidence of the pharaohs. Plus there are numerous accounts of other cultures to attest to this.


Every single account of Jesus was written well after the fact by secular sources, and most religious sources.


No one will question the existence of WW2 because there is too much physical/written evidence for it.


I don't have faith at the end of the day, I have hard evidence.

The cool thing about history is that there are millions upon millions of written and oral accounts of people that were at such events. No faith needed there.


Wait who said Jesus was the only one to spread belief? Paul basically designed Christianity. There might have been multiple "Christs" of that time preaching similar things, which is very possible. Plus there were the numerous Christ cults of that era. But they are no different than the various Greko-Roman cults that sprang up all over the place which spread their beliefs all over the world. Just because a belief is widespread or view as good, doesn't make it factual. Just because flies are attracted to a decaying carcass doesn't make it good.
 
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pladecalvo

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groundpounder said:
I do admire your conviction, albeit misplaced, it's conviction nonetheless.
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It's nothing more than the application of logic and reason really. Nothing special about it. It's the same logic and reason that you use when you dismiss Zeus, mermaids and unicorns. Ironically, you are only very slightly less atheist than I am.
 
groundpounder

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pladecalvo said:
It's nothing more than the application of logic and reason really. Nothing special about it. It's the same logic and reason that you use when you dismiss Zeus, mermaids and unicorns. Ironically, you are only very slightly less atheist than I am.
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It's a bit more than that. To suggest otherwise out of hand like that is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

After all, you didn't start a thread about unicorns, now did you? ;)
 
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pladecalvo

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groundpounder;609637It's a bit more than that.[/QUOTE said:
No it isn't. It's exactly that. I'm doing no more than you do when you dismiss hundreds of supernatural entities. I just dismiss one more than you do.
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