Jesus Christ. Man or myth?

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COOL_BREEZE2

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And before you talk about contemporaries/historians and mentions of Jesus other than the Bible let me draw this to your attention. (Just a few):

The facts that Jesus (pbuh) is alive in God's presence and that he will return to Earth in the End Times appears in some detail in the hadith collections, among them al-Shaybani's Taysir al-Usul ila Jami' al-Usul; Imam Maliki's Al-Muwatta'; the Sahihs of Ibn Khuzayma and Ibn Hibban; and the Musnads of Ibn Hanbal and al-Tayalisi, regarded as the greatest sources of the most reliable hadith. Furthermore, many Islamic scholars have carried out research and studies on these facts and have written books and treatises on them. These are also invaluable sources.

Heading the list of these great Islamic scholars is Abu Hanifa, the founder of the Hanafi legal school. Some of the other Islamic scholars who hold these views are listed below:

- Imam Abu Mansur Muhammad al-Maturidi, who, while studying the hadith regarding Jesus (pbuh), stated that Jesus (pbuh) would return to Earth and slay the Antichrist.80

 - Al-Ajuri, regarded as one of the first experts on the Qur'an, stated that Jesus (pbuh) will return to Earth in the End Times, for which reason the report must be believed.81

 - Ibn Hazm stated that the report that Jesus (pbuh) would return is reliable.82

 - Al-Pazdavi drew attention to the fact that reports of Jesus' (pbuh) second coming are openly revealed in many verses and hadith.83
- An-Nasafi stated that this event was one of the major signs of the Day of Judgment.84

 - Saduddin al-Taftazani stated that the hadith about this event are completely trustworthy.85

 - Ibn al-'Arabi reported that even though more than a thousand years has passed since Jesus' (pbuh) birth, he is alive in body and soul in God's presence.86

 - Al-Qurtubi wrote that he believes in the second coming of Jesus (pbuh) and indicated many trustworthy hadith to back up this belief.87
 
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pladecalvo

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COOL_BREEZE2 said:
You acknowledge the existence in the Pharaohs because it was recorded in history right? The same can be said about Jesus. Who wrote about the Pharaohs?
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We do not have to rely on the "writings" of history to accept that the Pharaohs existed. In addition we have much more evidence like statuary, coins, inscriptions, buildings, mosaics. You're flogging a dead horse if you think that the Egyptians can't be proven to exist.
Didn't the historians who wrote about the Pharaohs at that time believe the earth was flat too? If this is so your belief in the existance of the Pharaohs by such historians is flawed.
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I don't rely on documents alone.

Who related the history of Jesus to generations? Not the very people who knew him?
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No, there is not one written reference to Jesus from any "eye-witness."

And who recorded it? Not historians that recorded it by virtue of the history being passed on to them?
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No historians recorded it. All you have is the Gospels that are written by unknown authors.

You have to remember those times were not like today with the technology we have for instant recording.
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Jerusalem was a seat of learning in the 1st century. Historians were plentiful...yet nothing about Jesus the miracle man from any of them.

Do you also believe that the Holy Qu'ran is false?
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Yes.
 
COOL_BREEZE2

COOL_BREEZE2

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pladecalvo said:
We do not have to rely on the "writings" of history to accept that the Pharaohs existed. In addition we have much more evidence like statuary, coins, inscriptions, buildings, mosaics. You're flogging a dead horse if you think that the Egyptians can't be proven to exist.
I don't rely on documents alone.

No, there is not one written reference to Jesus from any "eye-witness."

No historians recorded it. All you have is the Gospels that are written by unknown authors.

Jerusalem was a seat of learning in the 1st century. Historians were plentiful...yet nothing about Jesus the miracle man from any of them.
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So contradictory your answers are.

And to your answer of:
Question: "Do you also believe that the Holy Qur'an (forgive my previous spelling error) is false?"
Answer: Yes.

Well, there ya go. It figures. Makes perfect sense.
You're just a big ole doubting Thomas aren't you? :D
 
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pladecalvo

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Pudding Time said:
Where did I say that?
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Post 58 I think.

COOL_BREEZE2 said:
But you are contradicting yourself my learned colleague.

You said (not me).......and I quote:

".........The facts are that Jesus is absent from all non Christian literature"
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I will concede that mistake. I meant non-religious literature. Unfortunate choice of word on my part.

COOL_BREEZE2 said:
And before you talk about contemporaries/historians and mentions of Jesus other than the Bible let me draw this to your attention. (Just a few):

The facts that Jesus (pbuh) is alive in God's presence and that he will return to Earth in the End Times appears in some detail in the hadith collections, among them al-Shaybani's Taysir al-Usul ila Jami' al-Usul; Imam Maliki's Al-Muwatta'; the Sahihs of Ibn Khuzayma and Ibn Hibban; and the Musnads of Ibn Hanbal and al-Tayalisi, regarded as the greatest sources of the most reliable hadith. Furthermore, many Islamic scholars have carried out research and studies on these facts and have written books and treatises on them. These are also invaluable sources.

Heading the list of these great Islamic scholars is Abu Hanifa, the founder of the Hanafi legal school. Some of the other Islamic scholars who hold these views are listed below:

- Imam Abu Mansur Muhammad al-Maturidi, who, while studying the hadith regarding Jesus (pbuh), stated that Jesus (pbuh) would return to Earth and slay the Antichrist.80

- Al-Ajuri, regarded as one of the first experts on the Qur'an, stated that Jesus (pbuh) will return to Earth in the End Times, for which reason the report must be believed.81

- Ibn Hazm stated that the report that Jesus (pbuh) would return is reliable.82

- Al-Pazdavi drew attention to the fact that reports of Jesus' (pbuh) second coming are openly revealed in many verses and hadith.83
- An-Nasafi stated that this event was one of the major signs of the Day of Judgment.84

- Saduddin al-Taftazani stated that the hadith about this event are completely trustworthy.85

- Ibn al-'Arabi reported that even though more than a thousand years has passed since Jesus' (pbuh) birth, he is alive in body and soul in God's presence.86

- Al-Qurtubi wrote that he believes in the second coming of Jesus (pbuh) and indicated many trustworthy hadith to back up this belief.87
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What the hell is the point in quoting religious scholars? They are believers. of course they are going to mention Jesus because they believe he existed. I don't accept that the Qur'an is evidence for Jesus or Allah any more than I accept that I accept that the Bible is evidence for the Christian god or the Bhagavad Gita is evidence for Brahma. It's not a bit of good quoting religious scholars as 'evidence'.
 
COOL_BREEZE2

COOL_BREEZE2

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pladecalvo said:
I will concede that mistake. I meant non-religious literature. Unfortunate choice of word on my part.

What the hell is the point in quoting religious scholars? They are believers. of course they are going to mention Jesus because they believe he existed. I don't accept that the Qur'an is evidence for Jesus or Allah any more than I accept that I accept that the Bible is evidence for the Christian god or the Bhagavad Gita is evidence for Brahma. It's not a bit of good quoting religious scholars as 'evidence'.
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The point was to support the fact that Jesus is mentioned in other than non-christian literature which you previously said didn't happen.

This was before you conceded that you were mistaken. All is forgiven. :D
 
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BigC

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I think he was both. If you look at the major religions they all recognize that a man named Jesus existed. Maybe what he accomplished in his lifetime was exaggerated but the man did exist.
 
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pladecalvo

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BigC said:
I think he was both. If you look at the major religions they all recognize that a man named Jesus existed. Maybe what he accomplished in his lifetime was exaggerated but the man did exist.
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Many recognise other gods too... so does that mean other gods exist?
 
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